Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Spoonist »

LadyTevar wrote:I will point out that all the pictures you present show the flange running back to front, which follows the ridge of the helm and actually strengthens it as well as adds to the deflection of any downward blow. Lannister's flange goes from ear to ear, bisecting the helm's ridge. While it may stop a downward blow from hitting full-strength, the energy of the blow is concentrated on a smaller area, where the flange meets the helm. Depending on the welds holding it, that sideways flange could either come off, or be driven into the helm itself. Either way, that flange seems build for looks only.
Hence why I said "While it is likely true for the specific props".
But again, there is lots of historical precedent for sideways as well. While historically they are mostly placed at the forehead facing forward.
So if those had been built for combat then I think that they'd not be a detriment at all, quite the opposite. Such features easily add to the deflecting capabilities while adding only little weight. But had it been me I'd go for forward or upwards facing rather than the slightly backwards facing of the ground troops, or the very much backwards slant of -tywin's headgear.
Also note that in a fight most blows wouldn't come from straight forward vs the top of your head, so a sideways ridge would protect more then a back to front one. But the front to back one is so much easier to make for the smith as well as looking great...

Note that as Thanas points out that during the development of roman headgear, they start adding such stuff more and more as they face different opponents and thus weapons. The forehead ridge is quite typical of the most advanced roman headgear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imperial_I ... ial_Italic

You'd also see such sideways stuff added as a sort of cross in siege helmets, probably to protect from stones.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Elfdart »

Vympel wrote:Whilst in the book series the armor is High Middle Ages (as stated by the author - lots of wonderful plate for the lords and knights like - think Battle of Crecy etc), the show is a bit different:-

House Stark

House Stark soldiers:-

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Why don't any of the Starks' men wear faceguards on their sallets? I understand why not in the case of main characters, but none of the extras do either.

And why is it Ser instead of Sir?
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Why don't any of the Starks' men wear faceguards on their sallets? I understand why not in the case of main characters, but none of the extras do either.
"In universe" its probably a matter of cost. Out of universe, its probably a deliberate choice to make them look a bit less well equipped than the Lannister troops.

Of course its all particular to the show, there's no mention of any set "uniform" in the books, I imagine there'd be a lot of deviation in between houses and levies of various sworn swords etc.

(is that helmet a sallet though?)

EDIT: I think its a Celeta
And why is it Ser instead of Sir?
Odd fantasy spelling :)
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Rogue 9 »

Elfdart wrote:And why is it Ser instead of Sir?
Because George R. R. Martin is a dumbass.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Elfdart »

Sallet and celeta might mean the same thing thing.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Elfdart wrote:Sallet and celeta might mean the same thing thing.
I'm going from google searches only, but sallets and celetas are never referred to as the same thing where I looked. The images that come up appear significantly different.

http://www.replica-blankguns.com/open-f ... ta-helmet/
The barbute or celeta was developed in Italy during the 15th century. These helmets were popular throughout Europe and offered an alternative to the more restrictive sallet. The extended sides protected the neck and jaw, dispensing with the need for a separate bevor or gorget. Our open face celeta is based on an original from the Wallace Collection in London and is crafted in 14 gauge steelwith an adjustable leather liner and chinstrap. Head Circumference: up to 25.5".
As for the main characters issue, personally I don't like that contrivance where all the main characters battle without helmets. You could at least give them open-faced head protection, look at how Snow White and the Huntsman handled it (costume design in that movie was pretty good).
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Lord Revan »

If it's a case of wanting to recognice where the main characters are you could also give them distinct helm designs (like Robert's helm in that pic, though maybe not quite that outlandish).
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Do you mean the helm with the stag antlers? You see that in Season 1, when Robert is trying to put his armor on (with Lancel) to go fight in the tourney.

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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Lord Revan »

yeah that's the style I was talking about (granted Robert doesn't actually wear it as he's too fat for his armor), basically what I was talking about was to give the main characters helm designs that would say "this is lord of Winterhall" or similar at a glance.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Yeah - the issue is not just recognition as it is if they're going to have a battle scene, they want to see the actor's face act the battle scene. So that's why I favor open-faced helms, or alternately, just helms with visors that can be lifted for when they need to say / do something the director considers important.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Raw Shark »

Yeah, that's why. In the books most of the really important people do have really awesome and distinctive-looking helmets. Roose Bolton's (red face with mouth opened wide in a primal scream of pain) is my personal favorite.

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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by LadyTevar »

Identification on the Medieval field of battle was mostly by the Coat of Arms worn by the fighters, just as shown in GoT. A leader's armory would be worn not only by himself, but by his household to identify who was under his command. Thus, you see the Houses' men use shields with their symbol upon them, or try to wear identical armor or tabards with the House Colors. Only the Lord himself would wear the full Coat of Arms, while his family could wear it there was always a "Difference", such as a bar across it for the Heir, a diamond-shaped background for the wife, etc. There might not be much reading in the Medieval Ages, but even peasants could tell who was who among the local Nobility by sight.

The GoT Houses have some of the simplest armory around, actually: a base color and a beast in a different color.

House Stark: Argent, a winter wolf's head crouped gules (Silver with a red wolf's head to the shoulders)
House Baratheon: (Robert) Or, a stag rampant sable (Gold with a black rearing stag, 3 legs in air)
House Baratheon: (Renly) Azure, a stag's head engorged with crown argent (Blue, a silver stag head with a crown for a necklace)
House Lannister: Gules, a lion passant Or (Red, a gold lion walking by)

Then there's the pretty one that I forget who it's for: Sable, an increasant and a falcon stooping argent. (Sable, a silver hawk diving at a silver cressant)
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Koolaidkirby »

House Arryn?
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Yeah, its House Arryn.
Identification on the Medieval field of battle was mostly by the Coat of Arms worn by the fighters, just as shown in GoT. A leader's armory would be worn not only by himself, but by his household to identify who was under his command. Thus, you see the Houses' men use shields with their symbol upon them, or try to wear identical armor or tabards with the House Colors. Only the Lord himself would wear the full Coat of Arms, while his family could wear it there was always a "Difference", such as a bar across it for the Heir, a diamond-shaped background for the wife, etc. There might not be much reading in the Medieval Ages, but even peasants could tell who was who among the local Nobility by sight.

The GoT Houses have some of the simplest armory around, actually: a base color and a beast in a different color.

House Stark: Argent, a winter wolf's head crouped gules (Silver with a red wolf's head to the shoulders)
House Baratheon: (Robert) Or, a stag rampant sable (Gold with a black rearing stag, 3 legs in air)
House Baratheon: (Renly) Azure, a stag's head engorged with crown argent (Blue, a silver stag head with a crown for a necklace)
House Lannister: Gules, a lion passant Or (Red, a gold lion walking by)

Then there's the pretty one that I forget who it's for: Sable, an increasant and a falcon stooping argent. (Sable, a silver hawk diving at a silver cressant)
If you look at Dark Sword Miniatures you can see the GRRM-approved book versions of the various characters - Robb Stark's miniature matches that of his personal coat of arms in the book, a wolf's head:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... bStark.htm

(note GRRM directed the change from the prototype for that reason)

As GRRM has said, plate is more common in the south than the north - Robb fights in chainmail.

Compare to Lord Tywin:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... Tywin.html

Or (young) Robert Baratheon, about to smash Rhaegar

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... obert.html

Ned Stark:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... Eddard.htm

Victarion Grejoy:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... tarion.htm

Mance Rayder (love the helmet!)

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... _Mance.htm

The Hound:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... ehound.htm

Jaime Lannister:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... _Jaime.htm

Jon Snow:-

http://darkswordminiatures.com/mainwebs ... onsnow.htm
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Crazedwraith »

If you look at Dark Sword Miniatures you can see the GRRM-approved book versions of the various characters - Robb Stark's miniature matches that of his personal coat of arms in the book, a wolf's head:-
When was that ever described in the books? Never remember anything saying Robb didn't use the standard running direwolf of his house.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

From Chapter 53 (Bran) of AGOT:-
He was mounted on a shaggy grey stallion, his shield hung from the horse's side; wood banded with iron, white and grey, and on it the snarling face of a direwolf. His brother wore grey chainmail over bleached leathers, sword and dagger at his waist, a fur-trimmed cloak across his shoulders.
It seems when they were making the show they turned the direwolf running on a field, which is the actual sigil of House Stark, into just an "option", whilst the face of the direwolf is more common, as opposed to being Robb's own.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Lord Revan »

I think they might have done it to make it easier to tell the houses apart at glance during any chaotic battlescenes
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Crazedwraith »

Vympel wrote:From Chapter 53 (Bran) of AGOT:-
He was mounted on a shaggy grey stallion, his shield hung from the horse's side; wood banded with iron, white and grey, and on it the snarling face of a direwolf. His brother wore grey chainmail over bleached leathers, sword and dagger at his waist, a fur-trimmed cloak across his shoulders.
It seems when they were making the show they turned the direwolf running on a field, which is the actual sigil of House Stark, into just an "option", whilst the face of the direwolf is more common, as opposed to being Robb's own.
Wow, read that book many times and never caught that detail.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Yeah, I've got the books in both soft cover (hard cover for ADWD) and on PDF and ePub on my PC so I can search for the references pretty easily - also people on westeros.org remember things that you might not and vice versa.

The "So Spake Martin" collection on westeros.org is damn good too, he offers a lot of insight into the world.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Rogue 9 wrote:
Elfdart wrote:And why is it Ser instead of Sir?
Because George R. R. Martin is a dumbass.

not so much dumbass as archiech

yup he's using proper spelling for the dark ages....
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Esquire »

Which is of questionable utility when writing in Modern, rather than Middle English. Using the same logic, every time the word 'women' is used it ought to be spelled 'wymmen.'

I don't disagree that it adds a bit of flavor to the world, but arguing that archaic spellings should be used when modern ones exist is just silly.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Batman »

Who exactly argued it should be used, pray tell?
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Esquire »

That's how I interpreted Yosemite Bear's post, but looking back I believe I made a mistake. Sorry about that...
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Spoonist »

Me, I'm rather fond of the 'ser' thing since the 'sir' of the real world has been diluted to just being a polite. So in world you can see that it actually refers to knights and not just anyone.
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Re: Armour of Game of Thrones (TV show)

Post by Vympel »

Started re-watching GoT from Season 1 in preparation for Season 3.

Whilst doing so I noticed Stark soldiers wearing mail with their usual uniform several times, in both seasons so far.

Here's one example in the first episode (the two soldiers taking Will to be executed also have it)

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