GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vaporous »

So was Robert. It doesn't matter unless you lose.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Vaporous wrote:So was Robert. It doesn't matter unless you lose.
And Renly lost.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

fgalkin wrote:Well, he could have been more of a dick to Renly, but otherwise I have to agree with IO. I am liking the show's Stannis quite a bit.

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Peter Dillane's Stannis is great. There's a lot of layers to his performance. Notice how he says "my own" when Renly asks about his banner? Note the insecurity - its almost like he's performing on Idol and the judge just asked him what song he just sang.

As for Renly's fate - well firstly, where the hell was the shadow baby birthed? Storm's End, as it clearly seems? If so, why haven't they shown the castle or shown it in the opening credits? If it is Storm's End, then they may use it to take the castle and then kill Renly later. I dunno. But there's a clear geographical black hole for new viewers in the Stormlands plotline as it stands.

If not:- where the hell did Davos smuggle Melisandre?

And man, Melisandre ... what a performance. The way she tells Renly to look to his own sins as she rides off was great.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

I got the impression Davos took Melisandre to some cove near to Renly's camp (though I'm not sure what those iron bars were doing there). They definitely aren't at Storm's End, or they wouldn't be set up in tents.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Jaepheth »

I don't think Joffrey's scene was meant to show us once again that he's sadistic, but rather was meant to show an escalation in the conflict between he and Tyrion. During the scene he asks twice to confirm that his uncle sent them, and then tells the one doing the beating that afterward she is to take the victim to Tyrion to show him what has happened. This was probably either to send a message that Tyrion cannot manipulate him with sex or to get revenge for being showed up at court (most likely reason, I think). It seems to me it was more a political move than Joffrey simply indulging in sadism.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Jaepheth wrote:I don't think Joffrey's scene was meant to show us once again that he's sadistic, but rather was meant to show an escalation in the conflict between he and Tyrion. During the scene he asks twice to confirm that his uncle sent them, and then tells the one doing the beating that afterward she is to take the victim to Tyrion to show him what has happened. This was probably either to send a message that Tyrion cannot manipulate him with sex or to get revenge for being showed up at court (most likely reason, I think). It seems to me it was more a political move than Joffrey simply indulging in sadism.
Once again though, this could have been established much more economically by just having the prostitutes show up at Tyrion's door afterwards and explain what happened. Aside from freeing up valuable time for the episode, this also has the benefit of showing Tyrion's and Ros's reactions afterwards and in fact makes Joffrey more disturbing by leaving his actions up for the viewers' imagination. The only reason they didn't do it like this is presumably tits.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Scrib »

Bright wrote:
Jaepheth wrote:I don't think Joffrey's scene was meant to show us once again that he's sadistic, but rather was meant to show an escalation in the conflict between he and Tyrion. During the scene he asks twice to confirm that his uncle sent them, and then tells the one doing the beating that afterward she is to take the victim to Tyrion to show him what has happened. This was probably either to send a message that Tyrion cannot manipulate him with sex or to get revenge for being showed up at court (most likely reason, I think). It seems to me it was more a political move than Joffrey simply indulging in sadism.
Once again though, this could have been established much more economically by just having the prostitutes show up at Tyrion's door afterwards and explain what happened. Aside from freeing up valuable time for the episode, this also has the benefit of showing Tyrion's and Ros's reactions afterwards and in fact makes Joffrey more disturbing by leaving his actions up for the viewers' imagination. The only reason they didn't do it like this is presumably tits.
Hey, Ros has to work too!

I personally took it as both. A sign of the conflict and iron proof that Joffrey was a sadistic psychopath. Before you could perhaps say that he was just a terrible child and that the power had gone to his head. But he was a teenager and had tits in his face and chose torture first. It shows that he's completely fucking insane, not just a spoiled arsehole.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by fgalkin »

It's a necessary scene because it shows that Joffrey is not just spoiled, but is a true psychopath (choosing violence over sex), it escalates the conflict between him and Tyrion, and it fulfills that episode's quota of tits. Also, it gives Ros something to do. The actress has a contract, you know. ;)

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Ahriman238 »

Peter Dinklage just keeps getting better and better as Tyrion. I was much impressed by the handling of Joffery and Lancel.

I'm pretty sure the scene with the shadow-baby birth was taken from later in the book, around the beginning of Blackwater, with Davos smuggling her and all. IIRC, the first we know of the shadow baby we see it killing Renly, then we find out what it was when Melisandre births another one later.

"Through strange magiks, the Starks had an army of wolves attack... After the battle, the Northmen feasted on the flesh of the slain." pretty transparent even for propaganda.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

I think this is worth a post:

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Crazedwraith »

The Bush era = discontinuity? :P

Dany = Palin gave me a chuckle.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by spaceviking »

In the same vain as brigh's comment

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Longer thoughts after I walk the dog but... what? The Tickler? But that death has so much weight later on! Why not kill Polly, we've met Polly! Did you not want to have Polly tell his raping the innkeeper daughters story where we all grew to hate and loath him? Are they saving that for next episode since we don't have Weaze? I hope so because with the Tickler dead we won't get to see the scene where the Hound takes a wound and Arya totally goes ape-shit and stabs him over and over again.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vaporous »

Yeah, no "IS THERE GOLD IN THE VILLAGE" is a loss, but I guess they didn't think a tv audience would remember "that one guy who tortured people three seasons ago".
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

ok are they going to reveal anything about the "Brotherhood" that they were torturing people over last week? (yes, I think I know who\m this is refering too.)
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by septesix »

I guess this means they are completely removing Meera and Jojen Reeds?

In some way I really don't like this episode because the way the changes they made to some character just really put me off...
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Atia »

I can take the truncating of Arya's story line. I can take them making Catelyn and Cearsi more sympathetic, and I can understand the removing of things like Arya's killing the tickler later. Hell I can even tolerate the rather quick way they went through all the Renly/Stannis stuff. But the one change I shall never forgive for making. One I find truly outrageous and completely offensive is the fact that the Qartheen go out with a breast exposed. This change is OUTRAGOUS! I demand lefty be allowed to roam free! :finger:

Okay just kidding, I kinda liked this episode a lot but the look at the dragonfire production had me thinking. How the hell are they going to do the battle in the blackwater or the whole battle at Kings Landing in general on this shows budget? They can't just gloss over it like the battle Tyrion was in last season. At least I hope they don't try and gloss over it. I wanna see ships burrrrrrrrrn!
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vaporous »

supposedly they went to HBO and begged them for more money to do it justice, so we'll see how it goes
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I really enjoyed that episode.

1. Asha/Yara finally felt like Book-Asha in terms of personality. Theon only had brief scenes, but I think we saw the precursors to his mistakes in taking Winterfell and faking Bran-and-Rickon's deaths - he's getting angry about being "mocked", about being seen as a weakling by his own people. It's making him stupid, and setting him to lead right into disaster.

2. We finally had some Bran, albeit brief. Since they eliminated the Reeds*, he's the one having the Green Dreams and trying to tell them to Osha.

3. It's a minor nitpick, but I really wish they had had Renly die with full armor still on. That was actually a plot-point in ASoS - even Loras eventually realizes that nobody short of the Mountain could have sliced that cleanly through plate armor. Aside from that, the whole sequence in Renly's camp from death to Littlefinger was solid.

4. I'm really liking this Davos. He's almost exactly like how I pictured him, and his relationship with Stannis really shone through in this.

5. More Tyrion! Lots of good scheming and preparation for war, which will ultimately culminate in the GRRM-written "Blackwater" episode. My only point of sadness was that we didn't get the line about dragons, magic, and the wildfire production speeding up (nor the hints of Aerys's plan to burn down the city with hidden wildfire caches in the advent of a sack).

6. It was weird hearing everybody suddenly praising the Halfhand, but he didn't disappoint as a character. I wonder how they'll handle the big battle that happens in the early Sam sections of ASoS - will they leave us with a cliff-hanger, with the battle on the Fist of First Men about to start?

7. I loved that scene between Ser Jorah and Daenerys. Tons of layers there, including some sexual tension and Jorah's near-worship of her. Show-Jorah turned out way more interesting as a character than Book-Jorah.

8. Quaithe . . . I don't know. She needs to be more ominous, and that mask just didn't seem right.

9. I enjoyed that scene between Brienne and Catelyn. I'm not sure what else to say, other than that both of them really hit the mark.

* I really liked the Reeds, but it's completely understandable why they were cut. Having them would have entailed yet more child actors, with both Jojen and Osha playing the same "Exposition Man" role.
Vaporous wrote:Yeah, no "IS THERE GOLD IN THE VILLAGE" is a loss, but I guess they didn't think a tv audience would remember "that one guy who tortured people three seasons ago".
I figured they would do it at the end of Season 2, when Arya, Gendry, and Hot Pie are escaping from Harrenhal. I guess not, unless she ends up going ape-shit anyways the next time she kills someone.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I missed the edit deadline, but I'll also add that that was the Tywin Lannister we know and like/hate/despise from the books. Cold, calculating, and disciplined - and very discerning. After realizing that Arya was a girl in the last episode, he managed to pierce through her first cover story and recognized that she was a northerner.

There was a particularly great moment, after Arya's "any man can be killed" line, where their eyes just seemed to bore right into each other . . . and he balked slightly, before ordering her to bring him water.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Call me crazy, but i'd be willing to bet that they'll change the "3 deaths" plotline to make Aria seem like less of an idiot (Even if she did admit it in the book). (Tywin..)
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

Call me crazy, but i'd be willing to bet that they'll change the "3 deaths" plotline to make Aria seem like less of an idiot (Even if she did admit it in the book). (Tywin..)
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

After sleeping on it...
Quaithe had issues, that mask was all wrong. When I pictured her I saw her wearing something like in Japanese Noh drama (Or a Hollow style mask from Bleach), she's very explicitly not described in the books except for that all covering painted wooden mask. No eyes, no mouth, no idea what's under the mask except a middle age women speaking prophecy. What we got was... not that. We got someone I could have pointed out on the street.

Later on in the books when we meet Quaithe again twice she appears where she should not be able to be, and is described both times as the mask and it's implied that's all Danny can see. That mask is not one I'd be terrified seeing floating in the darkness of my sea cabin or in the shadow of the pyramid's terrace

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

I didn't understand why they changed it so that Renly gets killed with his armor off. I was looking at his gorget everytime he wore it, thinking of how soon it would be pierced by the shadow.

EDIT: all in all, the entire scene was disappointing and didn't live up to one of the most memorable moments in Clash of Kings. The direction was, as westeros.org notes, mediocre in that scene - they made a good point in noting how obvious Renly's shadow is on the wall of the tent for a few seconds - as if they planned to have an effect there so it was like the book, but then they said something about Hurricane Irene ruining their plans. I dunno. Maybe that's the reason they went for the anti-climactic shadow just coming in and the audience watching it the whole time.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Vympel wrote:You're crazy. Will never happen.
I'd be very upset if they did that. It would be a horrible waste of a great scene for Tyrion, as well as one of the more amusing cases of poetic justice.
Mr Bean wrote:Quaithe had issues, that mask was all wrong. When I pictured her I saw her wearing something like in Japanese Noh drama (Or a Hollow style mask from Bleach), she's very explicitly not described in the books except for that all covering painted wooden mask. No eyes, no mouth, no idea what's under the mask except a middle age women speaking prophecy. What we got was... not that. We got someone I could have pointed out on the street.
I pictured something like a red tiki mask, only smaller and less ornate.
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