GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Ahriman238 wrote:Umm... doesn't the Iron Men baptism thing involve drowning you to within an inch of life than using CPR? Or is that something else?
Correct the Ironborn way is to take you out in the surf and drown you until the bubbles top then bring you up on shore and give you back the breath of life IE preform CPR. How long your down is up to the Drowned Priest and the holy ones (IE experienced) lose almost no one to this but the less holy (IE correspondence course holy men) wait to long and result in some people drowning from time to time.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

Ahriman238 wrote:Umm... doesn't the Iron Men baptism thing involve drowning you to within an inch of life than using CPR? Or is that something else?
That's just for induction into priesthood. It's more of a historical practice that's faded away in favor of just a splash of seawater.
Vaporous wrote:Arya's "Kim Bauer Tour of Westeros" was more irritating than interesting, so I see this as a plus.
Arya has pretty much the strongest, subtlest, most consistent character arc throughout that tour, so...
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

qywstion of a hypothetical nature how long would "Littlefinger" last if Arya and Tyrion kew his true involvement in everything?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

No Throne Room scene this week, I wanted to see what Joffery's done with the place.
That's next week.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Ultonius »

Bright wrote: That's just for induction into priesthood. It's more of a historical practice that's faded away in favor of just a splash of seawater.
Technically, babies are supposed to be properly drowned and then revived, but the alternate practice of a brief immersion seems to have replaced it to some degree. It's not entirely clear which is more common. To become a priest, or Drowned Man, it appears that you have to be drowned and revived as an adult, even if you have already done so as an infant. The pouring of seawater over the face is more of an anointment or blessing, while drowning or immersion is closer to our understanding of baptism. Of course, it's always possible that the TV version has changed this.
Mr Bean wrote: Correct the Ironborn way is to take you out in the surf and drown you until the bubbles top then bring you up on shore and give you back the breath of life IE preform CPR. How long your down is up to the Drowned Priest and the holy ones (IE experienced) lose almost no one to this but the less holy (IE correspondence course holy men) wait to long and result in some people drowning from time to time.
The only Drowned Man known to have lost no men while drowning them is Aeron Damphair, Balon's brother, and this is seen as a sign of the Drowned God's favour. Even the Drowned Man chosen to crown Balon during his first rebellion, Tarle the Thrice-Drowned, occasionally failed to revive men he had drowned.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Episode 4, Garden of Bones is half an hour away, my reactions after the fact the two big notes is that we get our shadow babies this episode and we get to meet the Mountains boys this episode.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Okay great episode with a dozen highpoint marred by the ending which I felt was to slow and shadow-babies took to long and they skipped two scenes.

Bad
Poof Stannis is there, hello lack of transition
Not poof Shadow-babies, it took a good minute of very lame build-up, did not sell me on the terror of this thing at all.
No is there gold hidden in the village

Good
SanSan hints :P
Tyrion putting a stop to it
Joffery beating whores and my mistaken impression what that cane was for and where it was going
Meeting Jayne
The litany grows

Great
Tyrion putting Lancel in his place
Tywin showing up and being awesome
Oh hey Lord of the Dreadfort, nice to see Roose already wants to flay people

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by KrauserKrauser »

He did ask where the gold and silver was being hidden.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Just managed to watch it.

1. I'm still not really fond of this Stannis, nor of the scene between him and Renly - both felt flat. The guy playing Renly interjected some emotion, but there was no real feeling of intense hostility between them, as in the book. Part of that is because they've cut a lot of Renly's screen time, and we didn't get many scenes developing why he's blatantly usurping the throne (including the conversation he had with Catelyn Stark about it, where he points out how Robert's "legitimate" claim to the throne was laughable).

2. I was wondering how they would handle the Shadowbaby scene. I think it turned out okay, although one of the disadvantages of the translation from "Davos book POV" to television was that we don't completely get Davos' sense of utter horror at what's happening. They tried, though, with the Davos guy backing up against the wall as far as he could go.

3. That Robb scene really wasn't that great, although the intro with Grey Wind was good. It's obvious that she's going to turn out to be Jeyne Westerling in actuality, and he's going to fall for her - the scene completely telegraphed it. That said, her helping the dead might serve to introduce how she "helps" Robb after he gets the news on Bran and Rickon.

4. All of Tyrion's scenes were good, of course. The best was his confrontation with Lancel, where both of them acted it very well.

5. I didn't care for the Joffrey sex scene. We don't really need to have it reinforced that he's a sadistic asshole - his spontaneous execution order for Ned Stark and treatment of Sansa do that pretty well.

6. I've noticed that the very minor characters in the show often tend to be awesome and interesting. Yoren was great, the guy playing the treacherous wine merchant in season one was great, and now we have the Tickler, Lancel, and the head of the Thirteen of Qarth who all acted the hell out of the scenes they were in. The Qartheen guy and Tickler in particular were chewing the scenery to great effect.

7. There's been a lot of good Littlefinger in this season. Aside from him dancing close to the flame again by not-so-subtly hinting at Renly's homosexuality, there's also his scheming to plant the idea of letting Jaime Lannister go with Catelyn, and his general presence in the camp (where he'll end up negotiating the engagement of Margaery to Joffrey).

I'm just hoping that Arya gets a chance at the end of the season to stab the Tickler to death while shouting, "Is their gold in the village? etc". That scene happened in A Storm of Swords, but the casting of the Tickler means there's a good chance it will happen here.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by spaceviking »

I think the shadow baby should have barely been shown. Like a glimpse that you would have to pause the pvr to be sure it happened. Then it could have focused on Davos reaction.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

so given my cable's out due to snow storm who did inbred narricist fuck?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

Urgh. The Whores scene was just...unpleasant. And unnecessary.
(The torture scene was just as damn distasteful to see onscreen, but actually less graphic than 1984's take on "Rat to the body". And the torture scene with the tickler had a damn point. Also, Tywin lannister remains as brutally effective and awesomeish as ever. Lawful Evil, not Chaotic or Neutral evil! {The actor should play Tarquin if there's ever a Live action Order of the stick movie :D}).
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Haruko »

When I saw the cage with rats I was definitely thinking the face-in-the-cage-as-rats-eat-it torture from 1984, and was a bit surprised to see instead rats in a bucket on the stomach with a torch to the end of it. Not as "graphic," but just as disturbing.

Game of Thrones: Torture 101. Chapter 1: Rats. Heh.

Have to say Tyrion interfering with Joffrey and Daenerys at Qarth are my favorite scenes this episode.

By the way, I have not read the books, but I read about Qarth because I like to read spoilers. That said, I read that Qarth has three walls, one of sandstone, one of granite, and the last of black marble. Can anyone confirm this? I only noticed the first wall, which I will assume was sandstone. Not sure if the other walls are supposed to be close behind it, or much farther off?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

The more I think about it, the more I dislike this episode.

- I agree with the general sentiment that Joffrey's torture scene was just pointless and redundant. We've already had this particular bit of information revealed to us many times. Even worse, I think this particular brand of sadism is edging too far into Ramsay Snow's territory, which just makes the two characters less distinguished.

- Also agree that Renly's and Stannis's standoff wasn't all that it could be. I don't have a problem with how either actor handled it, just the general feel of it and the lack of development in the two brothers' conflict. In the book, it was a genuine frustrating tragedy that they couldn't settle their differences and fought each other instead of the Lannisters. In the episode, they don't even set up Stannis heading to the Stormlands to confront him.

- Combining the birthing scene and Renly's death was a great, very pragmatic idea. Subsequently splitting them up was a horrible one. Most viewers will be able to guess what's going to happen now. The shock of it is reduced greatly. We now have two episode with one minor league WTF moment each, instead of one episode with one really great and memorable WTF sequence.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I agree that they shouldn't have split the scene up. Imagine how brutal the cliff-hanger would have been if we saw Renly getting stabbed to death by the Shadowbaby in his tent, ending with Catelyn and Brienne fleeing the tent. You could then start the next episode with Renly's camp completely in chaos, and Brienne and Catelyn heading north.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Crown »

Bright wrote:The more I think about it, the more I dislike this episode.

- I agree with the general sentiment that Joffrey's torture scene was just pointless and redundant. We've already had this particular bit of information revealed to us many times. Even worse, I think this particular brand of sadism is edging too far into Ramsay Snow's territory, which just makes the two characters less distinguished.
It wasn't for us, it was for Tyrion. This is where he begins to realise exactly what Joffery is.
Bright wrote:- Combining the birthing scene and Renly's death was a great, very pragmatic idea. Subsequently splitting them up was a horrible one. Most viewers will be able to guess what's going to happen now. The shock of it is reduced greatly. We now have two episode with one minor league WTF moment each, instead of one episode with one really great and memorable WTF sequence.
Agreed.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

Crown wrote:
Bright wrote:The more I think about it, the more I dislike this episode.

- I agree with the general sentiment that Joffrey's torture scene was just pointless and redundant. We've already had this particular bit of information revealed to us many times. Even worse, I think this particular brand of sadism is edging too far into Ramsay Snow's territory, which just makes the two characters less distinguished.
It wasn't for us, it was for Tyrion. This is where he begins to realise exactly what Joffery is.
It doesn't matter. We were still treated to a scene demonstrating this, robbing the episode of a couple of minutes that could have been better spent on something else, something more valuable.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Bright wrote:
It doesn't matter. We were still treated to a scene demonstrating this, robbing the episode of a couple of minutes that could have been better spent on something else, something more valuable.
Something like the Shadow-baby murdering Renly, how much better this episode if we had ended with a shadow.... a shadow on the wall putting a blade of smoke and darkness through Renly's neck even as he plans for the battle in the morning. It would harken back pretty hard core to Baelor (Episode nine where Ned loses his head )from the first season.

I'm going to go so far as to say that the ending of this episode was Season 2's Ros, something they did that in retrospec will seem like a pretty dumb move. Like an actress playing a whore? I know lets write lots of scenes for her! Totally not going to bite us in the ass. Hmm do we give Renly four episodes or five? Well we can give him five but we are already saving time by having Davos row her out for the first shadow baby murder rather than hinting at it and showing the second so lets of course show the shadow baby and then try and show the murder later.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by fgalkin »

I think I may disagree with everyone's opinion here. I think the shadow baby murdering Renly may well be a highlight of the next episode. It may seem anti-climactic to you because YOU KNOW WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. To the people watching the series for the first time, they just had their first confirmation that magic, as performed by humans is real. That in itself is a huge revelation completely separate from how it's used for. To combine it with Renly dying is just wasting an WTFOMG moment.

That's for the next episode, where we get to see Renly stabbed before our very eyes, sending everyone's plans into disarray. That in itself is a very important moment for the story and deserves its own episode.

Have a very nice day.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Minischoles »

Yeah i'd have to agree with fgalkin. For someone whose read the books, of course the shadow baby doesn't come as much of a surprise or revelation - we all knew it was coming. For those who are just watching the show, that's a huge reveal to end the episode on, and to combine it with Renly's death would probably dilute the moment.

Overall I enjoyed the episode.
- Joffrey's part felt a bit superfluous, we know he's a psychotic little shit - we don't need to see him making a whore beat another one to death.
- Tyrion walking into the throne room was awesome, Bronn threatening the whitecloak and 'there's no cure for being a cunt'
- Arya's part was good, especially the Tickler - for such a minor roll, he acted really well. And Tywin coming along and chastising everyone was great 'This one's a girl, you idiot'
- The Renly/Stannis scene disappointed me frankly - whether it's just because both actors have gotten such little screen time, but it didn't have any kind of intensity.
- Littlefinger needs to pick an accent and stick with it, but it's nice to see him talking to Margery.

- Littlefinger and Cat - it really seems they're trying to make Cat a more sympathetic character - removing her line to Jon at Winterfell and now adding this scene, which makes it seem she was just manipulated instead of her freeing Jaime being an act of pure fucking stupidity.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Scrib »

I have to agree on Renly and Stannis. Stannis has none of his intensity in the books. The actor is playing him in his own way and it's fine but the way the scene was written required book!Stannis. AS it was it seemed lacklustre, with people sitting on horses and talking nonsense.

Roz... Roz's continued presence in this series is inexplicable.

Jeyne Westerling has apparently been written out. Interesting, yet another love interest turned foreigner. And made feistier. Unlike Shae, where the whole thing is going to undermine her final scene imo (her entire relationship dynamic with Tyrion has changed and become more pathetic), I don't think it matters for Talisa.

I like the way Tyrion manipulated Lancel into confessing his whereabouts.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Imperial Overlord »

The Stannis works just fine for me. He's supposed to be a cold, rigid, unlikeable dick and this is what we're getting. If he had fiery passion, he would have something that might be charisma, which wouldn't be Stannis.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by fgalkin »

Well, he could have been more of a dick to Renly, but otherwise I have to agree with IO. I am liking the show's Stannis quite a bit.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

Well, he gets plenty of dickishness points from the fact that he's made the conscious decision to assassinate Renly here.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Scrib »

Bright wrote:Well, he gets plenty of dickishness points from the fact that he's made the conscious decision to assassinate Renly here.
Meh, Renly was a traitor.
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