GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Ahriman238 »

Ah Jaime, such an asshole he never talks about the couple of good things he's done, because he knows not even Tyrion would believe him.

Jaime and Cersei both seemed a lot more open about their relationship than I ever remember them being, Cersei talking to Tyrion about it (echoing what others have said, great scene) and Jaime taunting Catelyn about it.

I thought they were breaking Clash of Kings into two seasons, and not doing Blackwater in this one. If so, it was probably a mistake to say Stannis' ships will reach them in 5 days at this point.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Shadow6 »

Ahriman238 wrote:I thought they were breaking Clash of Kings into two seasons, and not doing Blackwater in this one. If so, it was probably a mistake to say Stannis' ships will reach them in 5 days at this point
That strikes me as unlikely, considering the trailers have already featured flaming ships, archers launching fire arrows and men fighting beneath the city walls, Stag shields visible. That, and episode nine is titled 'Blackwater'.

What I have heard is that parts of the ending of ACoK and start of ASoS may appear in a different order at the end of season 2/start of season 3 and that ASoS is going to be split into two seasons.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Bright »

Intriguing theory about I've heard: Xaro's huge vault is in fact entirely empty. He's been faking being the richest man in the city. "Power resides where people believe it resides" and all that.

It would be fairly perfect, wouldn't it?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Sriad »

Spekio wrote:Where the hell is Reek/Ramsay? If i recall correctly, he was the main instigator fot the murder of the miller's boys.
I think he's Theon's first mate, but that's only based on Reek's pre-reveal Bad Influence role in the books. I have no idea how the story would get him to the Iron Isles and into a ranking position.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Sriad wrote:
I think he's Theon's first mate, but that's only based on Reek's pre-reveal Bad Influence role in the books. I have no idea how the story would get him to the Iron Isles and into a ranking position.
Theon's first mate is the CheftJaw who in the books was as mid 50s warrior who acted as a second father for Theon, IE nothing like the show. Book Reek is the Bastard of Bolton and the nastiest piece of work in all of Westeros, even worse than the Mountain which until Dance with Dragons no one could predict.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

They're splitting ASoS into two seasons, not aCoK.

A non-Theon Reek has probably been abandoned, either the end of this season or the opener of Season 3 will introduce Ramsay Bolton straight.
Intriguing theory about I've heard: Xaro's huge vault is in fact entirely empty. He's been faking being the richest man in the city. "Power resides where people believe it resides" and all that.
That's a really good idea.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Bright wrote:Intriguing theory about I've heard: Xaro's huge vault is in fact entirely empty. He's been faking being the richest man in the city. "Power resides where people believe it resides" and all that.

It would be fairly perfect, wouldn't it?
He wouldn't necessarily have to be faking wealth in order for his vault to be empty. Money kept piled up in a vault is mostly useless, when it could be out making him more money through investments (which is what Littlefinger does with the Treasury as Master of Coin). I agree that the Vault would still be a powerful illusion even in that case.
Vympel wrote:A non-Theon Reek has probably been abandoned, either the end of this season or the opener of Season 3 will introduce Ramsay Bolton straight.
They're also probably dropping his bastardry as a character trait, which is too bad. I liked how he was an evil bastard (pun intended) who fit the Westerosi stereotype of bastards to a t: sly, nasty, and cunning.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

They're also probably dropping his bastardry as a character trait, which is too bad. I liked how he was an evil bastard (pun intended) who fit the Westerosi stereotype of bastards to a t: sly, nasty, and cunning.
Oh, I think there's plenty of time for that. He is after all specifically noted as being a bastard the first time he's mentioned.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Spekio »

Well, I always believed that trusting Reek/Ramsay was the first step in Theon/Reek's (it rhymes with weak...) journey of redemption.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Ahriman238 »

Theon clearly has a lot to learn about being a captain, a reaver, a lord, or hell just a man.

He's letting everyone and everything else, right down to Bran and Rick, dictate his actions. You really think hanging around Ned and his kids would have taught him better.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by TheHammer »

Ahriman238 wrote:Theon clearly has a lot to learn about being a captain, a reaver, a lord, or hell just a man.

He's letting everyone and everything else, right down to Bran and Rick, dictate his actions. You really think hanging around Ned and his kids would have taught him better.
I think that's quite the point isn't it? His father and sister pissed on absolutely everything about him that was "Stark" and made him feel like an outsider. So he's making a massive over-correction to prove he belongs and earn their love/adulation.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

TheHammer wrote:
Ahriman238 wrote:Theon clearly has a lot to learn about being a captain, a reaver, a lord, or hell just a man.

He's letting everyone and everything else, right down to Bran and Rick, dictate his actions. You really think hanging around Ned and his kids would have taught him better.
I think that's quite the point isn't it? His father and sister pissed on absolutely everything about him that was "Stark" and made him feel like an outsider. So he's making a massive over-correction to prove he belongs and earn their love/adulation.
What makes it extra pathetic on his part is that he does try to act like Ned in some ways after taking Winterfell. I think the execution of Ser Rodrik was supposed to be Ned-like ("the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword"), but it turned into a grotesque mess that horrified everyone, Theon included.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by jollyreaper »

Ultimately, he's a weak character and we're seeing the full manifestation of his weakness. But I bet Robb never would have imagined that he'd wind up with this happening when Theon went off to talk to his kin.

Was there more indication of how he felt in the books? It just seems like his complete and utter betrayal is a bit 180. He goes from seeking allies for Stark to becoming an enemy and rather quickly at that.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

jollyreaper wrote:
Was there more indication of how he felt in the books? It just seems like his complete and utter betrayal is a bit 180. He goes from seeking allies for Stark to becoming an enemy and rather quickly at that.
The books there's a great deal more shaming and more time spent inside Theon's head. From the books it's clear he was going home to win his fathers ships to Robb's cause and it's not until his father tells him twice bluntly that Robb Stark can go to hell that he starts working for his family. Even then he talks and remembers fondly his time with Robb and the other Starks. It's not until he's at sea that he embraces his family but even then it's not to any great extent. When Winterfell is taken it's almost an effort to end the fighting early, you can see some rationalizations to that effect when we see his own internal monologue. It's not until the boys escape that Theon really understands what he's done and he instantly starts hating himself.

And that's even before he rhymes with meek.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by jollyreaper »

Ah. Sounds like adaptation difficulty then. They really did a number on themselves trying to get it all done with so few episodes. These books could really use a 24 episode season. Even 13, for Cthulhu's sake.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

I don't remember Theon being that greatly conflicted in the books at all. The series dealt with it adequately by having Theon write a letter to Robb, then burn it. Doesn't seem rushed at all.

And you could never do a 24 episode or 13 episode season of this show, there's not enough time in the year and costs would be astronomical.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Elfdart »

Watching the series on HBOGO with the side windows is great because if you haven't read the books (like me), you can see the maps and footnotes about people, places and things in the show. It also has video features about how the scenes were put together. Great stuff.

The only bad thing is the picture quality, which sucks.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

I'm surprised you don't mind the spoilers in this thread though. I've always been very lax with getting spoiled but there is something at the back of my mind whenever I find something out ahead of time - how it would've been better if I didn't know. It was a bit of a tough decision reading all the books before / during Season 1 last year, but I felt like getting ahead of the show to have my own mental image of as many characters as I could. They've all been taken over by the series though :)

(one of my favorites this year was Renly - they made him look very kingly and much like a younger Robert just by giving him a more epic beard and a better haircut. Not to mention Brienne. Wow.)
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Elfdart »

I mostly skim through, and can't remember most of it anyway. Not that it matters: between the previews for the following episode and the way the writers telegraph every move so obviously, there aren't many surprises.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

HBO has released the first promo pic for the series' first proper large-scale battle episode:-

http://winteriscoming.net/2012/05/hbo-r ... more-17895

Yay :)

Episode 9 is going to kick so much ass.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by HMS Conqueror »

jollyreaper wrote:Ultimately, he's a weak character and we're seeing the full manifestation of his weakness. But I bet Robb never would have imagined that he'd wind up with this happening when Theon went off to talk to his kin.

Was there more indication of how he felt in the books? It just seems like his complete and utter betrayal is a bit 180. He goes from seeking allies for Stark to becoming an enemy and rather quickly at that.
I thought it was reasonably clear that he's acting in a totally cruel and vindictive manner because he feels he has to prove his loyalty to his father and the other Iron Islanders. His only other choice was to essentially defect to the Starks which means betraying his father, to whom everyone in this universe would agree he owed his first loyalty, and giving up a crown, which people just don't tend to do.

If he were a stronger person or a more competent ruler he maybe could have done his duty to his father without going crazy and totally brutalising the Starks and their retainers, but it was established already that he isn't. The person really giving the orders is what looks like a senior NCO from a warship, and he doesn't give a damn about the Starks.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

So episode 8 is over and done with and it was 90% setup.

Highlights
Jamie being an ass to Brienne, Season 3 with them is going to be great

I liked the story between Rob and his lady love with the slave even if it makes her backstory even more odd now

I liked Yara(Asha) being totally honest with Theon

That was a beaten up Ros right? Please tell me it was

Anytime you get Tyrion on screen things get better, Tyrion + other smart asses everything is better so we get two scenes with Tyrion getting to bounce off both Bronn and Varys.

Ashes in your mouth line delivered well

Sixteen titted god of fertility! Yes lets sail there tomorrow

The North was short this week

Low-lights
No Weasel soup, no Biter eating people

Joffery was on scene but not getting slapped

Right after the good scene between Robb and his girl the sex scene had to be pointlessly graphic and take forever, after that four minute story I was shouting at them to get on with it so we could get more Tyrion

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Scrib »

Why would Tyrion care if Ros was beaten up? Surely Cersei can't remember them meeting in Winterfell...

Also, Alfie Allen needs some sort of acknowledge here for his role.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Just watched it.

1. Yara/Asha actually seemed like the arrogant, sharp-tongued character from the books this time, albeit still understated. Her dialogue with Theon was one of the better parts of the episode, as well as the source for some of the episode's better lines. I thought he might end up getting dragged off by Ramsay Snow this episode, but instead it looks like that's going to happen in the final episode instead (since "Blackwater" is going to be dominated by Tyrion/Joffrey/Sansa/Tyrion.

2. The heavily telegraphed sex scene between Robb and Not-Jeyne-Westerling finally occurred. I thought it was pretty hot, although I noticed that we never actually see Jeyne's breasts in their entirety - maybe the actress has a "no breasts" rule for her contract. Either way, she's pretty goddamn hot, almost as hot as Margaery Tyrell. It also appears that I should stop calling her "Not-Jeyne-Westerling", since they doubled-down on her Volantene origins (after the hint about the Crag in the last episode, which was strange).

I'm still divided on this sub-plot, to be honest. I still think the way the book handled this was better - Robb, in a moment of extreme weakness and emotional distress following his wound in battle plus the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths, ends up getting "comforted", and then marries the girl the morning after out of his Ned-like sense of misplaced honor. However, the show has done a pretty good job with the way they unfolded the budding attraction, with Robb's decision coming from his mounting frustration and anger about his circumstances, including his arranged marriage "for a bridge" (which was a hilarious line, by the way - "so you're marrying her for a bridge"). I assume that they'll have his misplaced sense of honor kick in afterwards in the next episode (or the final one).

3. I'm annoyed that they had Catelyn release Jaime Lannister before finding out that Theon had "murdered" her "two boys". Having it happen afterwards makes much more sense - she's just lost half of her children, and she'll do anything to save the other half. Instead, she looks rather foolish and impulsive (which the decision to release Jaime actually was, but also more sympathetic in the books).

4. I hope we get some better interaction between Jaime and Brienne, with him getting under her skin. Jaime seemed to be doing it pretty well, taunting her and just generally acting like his arrogant, egotistical sense (which will make his own comeuppance-to-come much more satisfying when it arrives).

5. The high point of the past couple episodes, at least to me, have been the interactions between Arya and Tywin . . . and those are now over! Damn it. The final one was regrettably short, and consisted of little more than a briefing plus Tywin explaining that after all their bonding, he's leaving Arya behind in the tender clutches of Gregor Clegane. I suppose that makes sense (you don't bring a cupbearer on the battlefield), but it didn't feel as urgent as having her leave because Tywin was taking her with him would have been.

But on the bright side, they're free of Harrenhal, courtesy of Jaqen's seriously brutal murders off-screen. I suppose we won't find out his secret until the final episode. Also, Hot Pie was very "Hot Pie-ish" this episode, constantly talking about food to both Gendry and Arya's annoyance. Good times.

6. Most of Tyrion's scenes were great, although the Cersei-Tyrion scene felt a little off. They almost seemed to be bonding a bit in the last episode, and now they're at each other's throats again, as if the show remembered that these two people hate each other and that Tyrion needs to make that threat for what comes down the line. I do kind of like how it was more of a series of struggles and provocations that led them to that point in the book, but that realistically couldn't have been shown - it's too expensive, and there are too many other plotlines that have to fit in the ten episodes.

The Shae scene also felt a bit weird. Dinklage really sells it as best as he can, getting emotional and making Tyrion's falling in love with his whore actually seem kind of pathetic (which it is), but I don't think they had enough screen-time together this season to make it really sink in.

7. Lots of good Bronn in this episode, who is apparently literate (I loved how he, Tyrion, and Varys both pronounced the Archmaester's strange name differently). There was also a fair amount of exposition for the major battle to come in "Blackwater".

8. We finally see Davos-and-Stannis again. Davos was great, but Stannis still felt a bit underwhelming.

9. What can I really say about Daenerys? It was short, and the last line had a bit of impact. It's all just set-up for when she goes into the House of the Undying, which is pretty much what all her sections in the book were before the House of the Undying chapter.
Scrib wrote:Why would Tyrion care if Ros was beaten up? Surely Cersei can't remember them meeting in Winterfell...
At the very minimum, he needs to look like he's caring, so that Cersei thinks she has the right whore (if she doesn't, then she might have people go around snooping some more and find Tyrion's actual companion). I do think he actually does care a bit, feeling sorry for the fact that he got her beaten and abused by Joffrey (and then Cersei) because of his conflict with the respective two.

EDIT: I forgot about Jon!

Jon's sequence was a pretty big diversion from the book storyline. Instead of being forced to kill the Halfhand so that the Wildlings think he's a real defector when they capture him, he's going to be forced to do that in a different way. This works very well, in the sense that it gives him more interaction time with Ygritte to develop the attraction.

Sam's scene makes me wonder if they end his part in this season with the three horns blowing to represent the Others. That was a serious battle on the Fist of First Men which happened right at the beginning of A Storm with Swords, and I could see the show leaving that as a potential cliff-hanger for the next season (albeit with minimal showing, since it would be too expensive). In any case, he's got the obsidian knives.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by The Grim Squeaker »

My guess for series ending bits would be:
Spoiler
Jamie getting his hand chopped off. Very likely.
Jaqen's face change and the iron coin - maybe.... Depends how focused Martin's Blackwater episode is. (I'd expect it to be in episode 9 to be honest. The battle isn't that much in terms of plot happenings and is budget limited).
3 blows of the horn - Very very very likely for a "fade to black".
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