GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Esquire »

Wait, what was that last? When did the Kingslayer being dyslexic come up?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Esquire wrote:Wait, what was that last? When did the Kingslayer being dyslexic come up?
Last episode where Tywin is talking to Arya about his children he tells a story about how the Maester at the Rock told him Jamie would be bad at reading and describes something that fits the textbook definition of dyslexia, so Tywin sent the Maester away and spent four hours a day making Jamie practice which Jamie hated but at the end he could read and write fine. Which is something you can acutally do for some forms of dyslexia by simple brute force repetition build the mental pathways to get around the condition.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Theon's definitely got issues. It's part of his rather pathetic nature that he's constantly being driven by the company he keeps, even when he's trying to be decisive and "leader-ly". The show is actually more consistent on that than the books, which emphasized that the Winterfell sack was Theon's idea alone. It also hinted at how Theon's role models for rulership were Balon Greyjoy and Ned Stark, both of whom he tried to imitate (badly).

I still pity him in many ways. Theon may have been raised with the Starks, but he was still a hostage to be executed if his father made noises about rebellion again. There's an interesting counter-factual idea where Robb doesn't send Theon back to the Iron Islands - would his father still have led the invasion of the North? What would happen to Theon in that situation?
Mr Bean wrote:Last episode where Tywin is talking to Arya about his children he tells a story about how the Maester at the Rock told him Jamie would be bad at reading and describes something that fits the textbook definition of dyslexia, so Tywin sent the Maester away and spent four hours a day making Jamie practice which Jamie hated but at the end he could read and write fine. Which is something you can acutally do for some forms of dyslexia by simple brute force repetition build the mental pathways to get around the condition.
That's pretty compassionate for Tywin, and emphasizes the difference with how he treated Jaime versus Tyrion.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
I think we'll also see Jaime again, since he's definitely considered to be "A Man without Honor" in the story.
Its in the preview man. Just google it after every episode. Or check winter-is-coming.net :)

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Saw the episodes

Highlights
The Brother sister talk between the Lannisters
Alton and Jamie talking
Tywin and Ayra talking
Cat and Jamie talking
Lord Richard Karlstark was a damn good father and the way the camp was breaking apart went great
The Deaths of the Thirteen (Minus two) and the Warlock using his Shadow Clone technique to merk the entire room.

Meh sections
The North for the most part.

What the hell section
Alton Lanniser getting killed, he looked like a fine actor why kill him now when he can be part of the traveling show with
The North changes. RR Martin had it much better written as we get short bios of everyone then we get the escape and the quiet moment with the Halfhand (We are going to die arn't we sir) then the order to change his cloak then him fighting and killing him.

They took the great BoB style scene as we meet everyone then watch each of them die one by one until it's just John and the Halfhand left, now instead we got roughly twenty minutes in the last two episodes of John and his lady love tromping around Iceland talking at each other.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vaporous »

yeah having him murder his cousin for no reason was stupid. Couldn't he have achieved the same thing by pretending to kill him and having him freak out on the ground? At no point during the escape did Cousin Lannister being actually dead help the plan, and it would have been more interesting for him to be on the road with Brienne and Jaimie. Have Jaimie kill him then if you need to remind everyone that he's a huge asshole.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

I liked this episode. It was rather unusual to get so little Tyrion and Cersei in an episode, but the rest of the stories mostly worked well:

Arya and Tywin: Tywin is one clever son-of-a-bitch. He set a trap for Arya with the food and utensils. She not only walked right into it, but she also supplied Tywin with plenty more fuel for his suspicions about his cup-bearer (the Aegon sisters story, and the language she used). I assume that this is all building to him announcing that she's coming to King's Landing with him, at which point she uses her last "wish" with Jaqen H'gar to escape with Gendry and Hot Pie (which is different from the books, but much better and more concise). I'll actually be sad when we no longer have Arya-and-Tywin conversations, since it has been one of the better TV-only developments in the series.

Theon gets crazier: Theon seemed really unbalanced in this episode, even considering that they set him up for this with the last episode. The final scene was horrific, even if it's already obvious that they're the two orphans and not Bran and Rickon (otherwise Theon would have the corpses of Osha and Hodor, plus the two direwolves). I wonder what the deal is with his right-hand man (Dagmar) - is he going to betray Theon to Ramsay Snow? Or is it like in the book where he sticks with Theon because he just wants to get himself killed in a fight?

Catelyn: Catelyn was great in this episode, either forcing Lord Karstark to back down in a confrontation, or her dialogue with Jaime where he's trying to provoke her.

Sansa: Man, the Sansa parts of the show are always so difficult to watch. Maybe it's because she's completely at the mercy of people around her, and she always looks like she's about to cry. I do like how they've developed this slight bonding with Shae, and Shae immediately understanding the danger and trying to do something about it. It was also nice to see the show start to develop the strange relationship she had with the Hound in the books, where there's almost a weird mix of attraction and fear on Sansa's part in the later books (when she's thinking of the Hound in hindsight).

Jaime: Since Jaime's been a no-show for almost the entire season up to this point, it's only fitting that he show up again with a bang. I agree that his murder of Alton Lannister was pretty cold-blooded, but we're talking about the guy who shoved a small boy out of a window - we always need to reminded that Jaime's a bastard, in case we start to forget. Of course, his arrogance and attitude are setting him up for a huge comeuppance, which is likely going to be the end of his storyline in this season (since they bumped his entire storyline further up in the timeline).

Karstark and Bolton: It's a little late in the game to be introducing Robb's lords, but the guy playing Lord Karstark did a good job selling the anger and grief over the murder of his son (which ultimately leads to chaos in the Riverlands after his men disperse to scour the land in search of the escaped Jaime).

We only saw Roose Bolton for a few seconds, but that was enough. Robb slighted him in favor of some random girl doing treatments on the battlefield, and Bolton is not a man to forget grievances done to him. It's unfortunate that he doesn't really have the creepy, bloodless vibe that Roose had in the books, but he's still doing okay.

Daenerys: The show continues to improve on the book A Clash of Kings storyline, which isn't hard (she doesn't do anything in the book until she goes to the House of the Undying). As a reminder of how she's at the mercy of her hosts, we discover that Xaro and Pyat Pree collaborated to steal her dragons and usurp power in Qarth. My guess is that in exchange for the Warlocks' support, Xaro offered to let Pree have Daenerys for . . . what awaits in the House of the Undying (which I hope they manage to do justice to, since it's a strange, almost dream-like sequence in the book). Daenerys refusing his marriage offer just sealed the deal on her fate, and (if all went according to plan) would give 3 dragons to new-King Xaro's ambitions (by the way, Xaro is a vast improvement over the character in the book).

Jon and Ygritte: Constantly having Ygritte bait and taunt Jon Snow got a little tedious after a while, and I'm lukewarm on the cliff-hanger. Is the Halfhand going to save him?

Tyrion and Cersei: A rare moment of closeness and compassion between the two siblings. I like that they've made Cersei a more sympathetic character in the show, and that she actually does feel guilty over how bad Joffrey turned out.

Not-Jeyne Westerling: For anybody who has read the books, this episode almost shouted that Robb's object of attraction is Jeyne Westerling (the Crag is the seat for House Westerling, and she was reluctant to go there in person). I'm still a bit iffy on the idea of having them develop a connection before the Crag, since what made Robb's ultimate screw-up there so interesting was precisely that it was a sudden, one-time thing that led to serious consequences because of Robb's sense of honor getting ahead of his judgment. Either way, I expect the meme-makers on the internet to have a field day once it happens.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

To add,

I think the Catelyn scenes really tied into what Brienne said about Catelyn in the previous episode - that she has a "woman's courage". She definitely showed courage in forcing Lord Karstark to back down, and will presumably show more once the whole camp is in an uproar next episode. Speaking of that, I've changed my mind on Alton Lannister - I wish he was still alive, so that Karstark could cold-bloodedly murder Alton Lannister and give Robb a reason to execute him.

The same could be said about Shae, who took a big risk in order to try and protect Sansa.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vaporous »

The Shae-Sansa connection was needed, since it gives people more sympathy for both of them and gives shae something to do other than sit in a house and fuck Tyrion every three chapters. I just wish they had one more scene to show the transition between "Gragh stupid commoner you can't serve me properly" and the two of them being close with Shae giving Sansa frank truths and threatening murder on her behalf.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Minischoles »

I don't really get why they're changing the Jon and Robb parts - if anything, it detracts from the story rather than adds to it.

-Robb's romance with the girl is so telegraphed it's almost groan worthy, seems like the writers forgot all about subtlety when they wrote those parts. I agree that it was much better in the books where it was a sudden stupid mistake that he made while he was grieving for his brothers, now it's just making him seem incredibly stupid.
-Jon's changes are the most baffling - instead of this potentially great scene with the Halfhand and Jon, we get Jon and Ygritte tromping around the ice. While her taunting was kind of amusing, it really makes no sense now why the wildlings would trust him purely on her word. In the books at least, you see that he kills Halfhand and has her word to back up his claims of being loyal.
-The other big change, Dany's part, are great. Her parts in the book were boring and did nothing, so actually giving her a storyline is a decent change.
-I'm loving the Arya-Tywin change as well, the scenes with them in are quickly becoming my favourites after Tyrion scenes.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Haruko »

That scene with Xaro and Pyat Pree talking just before the slaughter of the rest of the 13, and the build up in music up to that point, was chilling.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

-Robb's romance with the girl is so telegraphed it's almost groan worthy, seems like the writers forgot all about subtlety when they wrote those parts. I agree that it was much better in the books where it was a sudden stupid mistake that he made while he was grieving for his brothers, now it's just making him seem incredibly stupid.
The books can't possibly be better because we never even saw the romance happen in the books in the first place. When Catelyn reunited with Robb it had already happened.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Vympel wrote:
-Robb's romance with the girl is so telegraphed it's almost groan worthy, seems like the writers forgot all about subtlety when they wrote those parts. I agree that it was much better in the books where it was a sudden stupid mistake that he made while he was grieving for his brothers, now it's just making him seem incredibly stupid.
The books can't possibly be better because we never even saw the romance happen in the books in the first place. When Catelyn reunited with Robb it had already happened.
Having it all happen off-screen wouldn't fly in a television show either. It only worked in the book because we never get Robb's POV, and so we know that Catelyn is operating on limited information. That gives it all the more impact when she finds out what happened.

I've been thinking about it some more. It's telegraphed like crazy, but I think we can see the roots of how Robb will end up screwing Jeyne in her treatment of the injured. Robb described what happened in the novel as Jeyne "comforting" him in his time of grief.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Chirios »

I liked this episode, unfortunately the stuff with Cat just reminded me that this is the season where everything turns to shit. Where George proceeded to meander around for three books resulting in the complete mess that was A Dance with Dragons.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

I never heard of anyone saying it was after Clash of Kings that the books went to shit. Storm of Swords is easily the best book in the series IMO. People only really got mad at AffC. Not me, but then I wasn't waiting as long.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Chirios »

Vympel wrote:I never heard of anyone saying it was after Clash of Kings that the books went to shit. Storm of Swords is easily the best book in the series IMO. People only really got mad at AffC. Not me, but then I wasn't waiting as long.
Didn't Cat's act in this ep occur in Storm of Swords originally?
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Chirios wrote:
Didn't Cat's act in this ep occur in Storm of Swords originally?
Yes as does the wandering through the Riverlands bit.

The best books in the series are Clash of King and Storm of Swords. Game of Thrones is setup for Clash which sets up Storm of Swords. In Storm we get the big pay-offs with the various Weddings, the various escapes, we get the GOOD part of Slavers Bay and the second part of Arya's time training to become the singles greatest threat in Westeros. We get dozens of plot lines from the first two books completed in Storm and it's a great book because of it because it's pay-off after pay-off. Feast for Crows and Dance are both setups for the hopefully great Time for Wolves or whatever book six is called. At the moment however they are both meandering messes.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Chirios »

Mr Bean wrote:
Chirios wrote:
Didn't Cat's act in this ep occur in Storm of Swords originally?
Yes as does the wandering through the Riverlands bit.

The best books in the series are Clash of King and Storm of Swords. Game of Thrones is setup for Clash which sets up Storm of Swords. In Storm we get the big pay-offs with the various Weddings, the various escapes, we get the GOOD part of Slavers Bay and the second part of Arya's time training to become the singles greatest threat in Westeros. We get dozens of plot lines from the first two books completed in Storm and it's a great book because of it because it's pay-off after pay-off. Feast for Crows and Dance are both setups for the hopefully great Time for Wolves or whatever book six is called. At the moment however they are both meandering messes.
Winds of Winter I believe. Also, I'd argue that there was payoff in both CoK and GoT.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Mr Bean »

Chirios wrote: Winds of Winter I believe. Also, I'd argue that there was payoff in both CoK and GoT.
All of the pay-offs in CoK and GoT lead to even greater pay-offs in Storm of Swords.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Vympel »

A Time for Wolves was going to be the title of Book 7, but GRRM said he wasn't keen on it and its now A Dream of Spring.

Personally I prefer A Time for Wolves. Both Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring don't really fit the motif.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Elfdart »

My favorite parts of the last few episodes are the scenes with Arya and Tywin, because up until last week I was wondering if he had an idea who she was. When he lets her swipe the note off his desk while his back was turned I kinda got the impression he did. My favorite scene last night was when Arya had the knife in her hand and took a good long look at Tywin's neck. Funny thing is, at first I thought Tywin wanted her to eat his food because after that knight just got shivved, he was worried he might get poisoned and wanted her to be food taster.

My least favorite part was the Ygritte/Jon "romance" because my girlfriend kept talking back at the screen "Why haven't you kissed her yet? What's wrong with you?" and asking me if Jon Snow was supposed to be gay or something (like I'd know). Then I made the mistake of asking her "I thought you were Team Gendry :P " -which really set her off (she went nuts for him when he appeared shirtless two weeks ago)!
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by fgalkin »

You should have reminded her that Jon took a vow to be celibate, and as a Stark in all but name, and thus, Honorable Stupid, he takes that shit seriously.

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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Spekio »

Where the hell is Reek/Ramsay? If i recall correctly, he was the main instigator fot the murder of the miller's boys.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Guardsman Bass »

Spekio wrote:Where the hell is Reek/Ramsay? If i recall correctly, he was the main instigator fot the murder of the miller's boys.
He's been mentioned, but hasn't been cast for this season. I don't know what they're going to do with him at the end of the season.
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Re: GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

Post by Spekio »

Spoiler
If we don't get a Theon/Reek(it rhimes with meek..) in season 5 I'm going to be really disappointed
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