GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

[Guardsman Bass]

I also add that the brief scene with Stannis and Melisandre was excellent. It's one of those scenes that the show can get away with, since it's not bound by the POV structure of the books (where our only views on to Stannis are from Davos, Jon Snow, and Asha).

EDIT: Editing window closed on my bigger post.

I figure that they'll show the Battle on the Fist of First Men as a night battle in the Season 3 Premiere. Both because of what I mentioned, and because the darkness adds a heavy degree of wildness, fear, and chaos that was present in the battle in the book, where the group encamped on the Fist are desperately trying to fight off an enemy they barely know anything about aside from the usefulness of fire.

[Meest]

Agree the Fist battle should be darker, hope that snow storm blocks out even more light and can at least get a more dark stormy level light. Need to watch the Undying part again maybe there is more hints in it. They should have at least revealed a bit more so maybe she might return later since she didn't seem to burn it down. Snow being in the Iron Throne room and Drogo being at the wall to me hints at a Jon Targaryen connection or soon to be one with Daenerys.

For the White Walker, if they can't do a full out reflective suit of armour they should at least try a breastplate or smaller armoured area like a gorget or helmet maybe. Didn't mind the Halfhand scene since he does hint at his plan episodes earlier, just wish he got to communicate with Jon more instead of Jon seemingly only realizing after the fact what he needs to do. Also should have spent some time building Qhorin as a better ranger, either redshirt some wildlings or make him do something impressive like disarm/cut Jon and get a word in then start to lose. Non-book readers could care less that he's now known for killing the Halfhand a guy that loses people during daylight hours.

[Vympel]

Just finished watching the episode. Holy shit that was awesome. Finally, our first good look at White Walkers. So much good stuff. Really pleased with it.

Did anyone notice there was a wight with a House Stark shield at the end?

And yeah, you really can see the payoff with how they handled Catelyn's freeing Jaime compared to how it was handled in the books - to give Robb a reason to ignore Catelyn's advice. Smart play.

EDIT: 100% agree on Theon. Show handles him really well. The exchange with Luwin about Theon's first sight of Winterfell was great, and served the dual purpose of hitting the audience when we see Winterfell burned.

LOL @ Larry Willaims about Ducksauce:- "The motherfucker was broke!"

[Alferd Packer]

Honestly, the my favorite part of the episode was Maester Luwin's farewell to the boys in the godswood. It was absolutely brilliantly-acted by everyone, even Hodor(and I'm not trying to be a smartass with that).

[Vympel]

Yeah, the great acting aside, the imagery alone in that scene was fantastic - it was nice to see that even though Winterfell was burned, the Godswood was pretty much untouched.

[Guardsman Bass]

I forgot to mention the Roz scene. The interaction between the two was great, although I have no idea as to what Varys is planning to do with Roz in terms of "partnership". What does Varys even do for most of A Storm of Swords, aside from his usual wandering around the city? It's not like he needs her to either recruit Tyrion or deal with Tywin.

I don't think I can ever see Roz's breasts again, though, without thinking of Neil Marshall's comment about the pervy HBO executive egging him on to show full frontal.

[Minischoles]

- I'll echo the sentiment of loving what they've done with Theon, they've really managed to expand the character and add a great deal to him. Yes there's the arrogance, but we get this glimpse of the very tortured and confused person he is. Sucks that we missed out on seeing Ramsay Snow, and seeing that it was him that burnt down Winterfell, but he hasn't even been cast yet.

- Maester Luwin saying goodbye to the boys in the godswood, just the acting alone made that great, and the imagery of Winterfell smoking in the background as they head off towards the wall

- House of the Undying - uggh. I know they spunked most of their budget away with Blackwater, but this is another change that felt pointless. What little we got was good, but we missed out on such a huge chunk of it, including the prophecy and the actual 'song of ice and fire'. I'll agree with Mr Bean as well, the fire effects looked really kind of cheap.

- The Halfhands death was good, if very different to the books and how it moved Jon's character forward, but at least we got to it, and got our first glimpse of Mance Rayders camp.

- The three blasts was handled nicely, the three of them out walking in the snow again before hearing the blasts. I liked the mix of re-animated corpses and an actual White Walker (was that will take Sam back and meet Bran later?)

- Everything else felt nicely wrapped up, Sansa being set aside and promised rescue, Tyrion deciding to stay now that he's gotten a taste of power - very nicely set up for next season.

[Bright]

I don't think I've seen this addressed:

The show has basically ruined Brienne's character. She's very much defined by her morality and nobility. In the show, she went into a murderous rage, killed innocent people and now in this episode, killed someone in a very ruthless and gruesome manner. She doesn't even display any guilt over either of these incidents. That's... not Brienne.

Anyway, I liked the finale a lot in general, despite some disappointments. I have to say though that I felt Arya not killing anyone throughout the whole season is a major failing. Her killing that Bolton guard on her escape from Harrenhal is a defining moment in her character development, and she won't have the chance to go wild on the Tickler either. I do not appreciate these changes in her character arc, even though I like most everything in her storyline.

[JLTucker]

Anyway, I liked the finale a lot in general, despite some disappointments. I have to say though that I felt Arya not killing anyone throughout the whole season is a major failing. Her killing that Bolton guard on her escape from Harrenhal is a defining moment in her character development, and she won't have the chance to go wild on the Tickler either. I do not appreciate these changes in her character arc, even though I like most everything in her storyline.

Damn. In season one she says "Anyone can be killed." Why didn't they follow through with that? Granted, she slayed that child in the first season, but that appeared to be an accident in the midst of chaos.

[TheHammer]

I don't think I've seen this addressed:

The show has basically ruined Brienne's character. She's very much defined by her morality and nobility. In the show, she went into a murderous rage, killed innocent people and now in this episode, killed someone in a very ruthless and gruesome manner. She doesn't even display any guilt over either of these incidents. That's... not Brienne.

Curious... who were the innocent people she killed? To my knowledge she killed two of Renly's king's guard in self defense after Renly was killed and was obviously an emotional wreck over the entire situation.

Yes she killed the stark men, but they were at best guilty of murder by their own admission. Seems to me she was simply doleing out eye-for-an-eye justice, and only when she was essentially forced to because they'd identified her.

[Bright]

Curious... who were the innocent people she killed? To my knowledge she killed two of Renly's king's guard in self defense after Renly was killed and was obviously an emotional wreck over the entire situation.

Two guards who'd done nothing wrong, without making much of an attempt to explain herself. Being upset doesn't excuse that. In the books, this action was given to Loras Tyrell to demonstrate what a hot-headed jackass he was.

And killing the Northerners in this episode was one thing (though fairly morally ambiguous in itself), but shoving a sword through someone's genitals until he died - no matter how much "he deserved it" - is not something Brienne would do.

[Mr Bean]

Curious... who were the innocent people she killed? To my knowledge she killed two of Renly's king's guard in self defense after Renly was killed and was obviously an emotional wreck over the entire situation.

Two guards who'd done nothing wrong, without making much of an attempt to explain herself. Being upset doesn't excuse that. In the books, this action was given to Loras Tyrell to demonstrate what a hot-headed jackass he was.

They came at her with swords draw and she was holding her dead King and if you recall the books she does kill one of the Rainbow guards escaping because of identical circumstances.

And killing the Northerners in this episode was one thing (though fairly morally ambiguous in itself), but shoving a sword through someone's genitals until he died - no matter how much "he deserved it" - is not something Brienne would do.

....Laugh... remember that quote? When she killed the fool after making him dig two graves on the Fingers? She would have and has done similar things in the past

[Elfdart]

Now the season's over, I can offer a few half-informed thoughts. My SO and a few of our friends (she and her friends being varying degrees of feminist -the kind who go on and on about "male gaze", "objectification" and using the word "problematic" in casual conversation: "Sure Tyrion loves Shae, and their relationship is consensual, but it's still problematic" and a discussion about whether a scene in Blackwater passed the Bechdel Test -it didn't.) watched the first season over the last few weeks, and we watched the Season 2 marathon during a cookout yesterday afternoon, finishing with the finale last night:

1) Finally, we get some sort of payoff with all that wandering in the snow. Given Martin's habit of using fluorescent, safety orange models of Chekhov's Gun, makes sure they're cocked and loaded with the hammer back, I suspect that those obsidian knives are somehow +5 vs frozen undead, or that obsidian repels them like iron does with faeries. Otherwise, Samwell is 100% jugfucked.

2) While we're on the subject of the Night's Watch, why do they wear solid black when they're trying to do recon in the fucking snow? My girlfriend likes Samwell for some reason (NOT in the Team Gendry vs Team Jon way), and shouted "HIDE!" at the screen. Of course he can't hide in the snow because (a) he's dressed in all black like Zorro and (b) he's a really big fat guy dressed in all black like Zorro.

3) The Danerys thread still bores me to death. The only part I found interesting was when the handmaiden who helped Doxos steal the baby dragons turned up in bed with the "King" of Quarth, one of my SO's friends said "She needs to kill that bitch!"

4) The consensus among female viewers at our party was that Danerys needs to sleep with Jorah Mormont already. When I asked if the age difference wasn't "problematic" I was treated to four of these:


5) Speaking of ick factor with a middle-aged man and a teenage girl, is Littlefinger actually trying to bone Sansa? That's wrong on so many levels that a thought popped into my head that should never have done so: Too bad the Hound isn't here when Sansa needs him!

6) Was Sansa laughing after Joffrey dumped her, or crying?

7) Tywin's horseshit -is it supposed to be symbolic, or was that a goof they decided to leave in?

8 ) If only Westeros had divorce and gay marriage!

9) Does Margery know what a psychotic little fuckwad she's about to marry? Is she counting on her brother to keep Joffrey in line?

10) Doesn't Arya still have another name with Jaquen?

11) Like Wile E. Coyote, Theon gets bitched in the most humiliating fashion again and again...

12) Cersei, wearing her gold bustier and being slightly drunk, gave me a boner.

13) Jon Snow is a bastard and I understand there's been a lot of speculation about his true parentage, but there's no doubt whatsoever that Robb Stark is the son of Ned and Catelyn who, aside from Theon and Vaserys, are the two biggest dumbfucks in this show.



So he marries the foreign girl, pisses off the guy who let him cross the fortified bridge south AND sent thousands of his own men to fight for him (how the fuck is Robb planning to get home?), and looks 100% pussywhipped in front of his nobles? I'm surprised they didn't turn on him immediately! Maybe next season.

What makes you think there was a body double?

You don't see her face and flesh in the same shot.


14) With several feminists on hand, there was quite a lot of eye-rolling at the gratuitous boobage in the series ("All this tits and ass and what do we get? A naked, retarded giant!"), but Bronn's girl elicited the following exchange between me and the SO:

Her: Another naked girl
Me: I noticed.
Her: <pause> God, I want her ass!
Me: You and me...
Her: <smack>

15) Speaking of boobage, Ros finally whipped 'em out this season! I guess my SO was wrong and the actress isn't pregnant. Oh, and they made Ros part of a plot by the eunuch, my guess to poison Littlefinger. If that's true, good for Ros and good for Varis.

16) Stannis had a major pooch-screw at Blackwater, lost his right-hand man and who knows how many men and ships. It doesn't seem likely that he can hold Storm's End and Dragonstone against the Lannisters and Tyrells. A smart move would be to evacuate both, sail north and join forces with Robb and/or the Night's Watch. Then fight off the white walkers (if possible) and recruit a shitload of Wildlings to fight off the Lannisters.

[Guardsman Bass]

5) Speaking of ick factor with a middle-aged man and a teenage girl, is Littlefinger actually trying to bone Sansa? That's wrong on so many levels that a thought popped into my head that should never have done so: Too bad the Hound isn't here when Sansa needs him!

Without spoiling too much, the answer is "yes". The whole situation with Littlefinger and Sansa is just creepy, since he's projecting his obsession with Catelyn on to her daughter.

6) Was Sansa laughing after Joffrey dumped her, or crying?

Laughing, although she covered it up real quick when Littlefinger talked to her.

7) Tywin's horseshit -is it supposed to be symbolic, or was that a goof they decided to leave in?

Weirdly enough, that was in the book as well - although Tywin's horse took the shit right in front of Joffrey. I think it was supposed to be symbolic in the show.

9) Does Margery know what a psychotic little fuckwad she's about to marry? Is she counting on her brother to keep Joffrey in line?

Seriously, though, I think you'll be surprised on how that plays out.

So he marries the foreign girl, pisses off the guy who let him cross the fortified bridge south AND sent thousands of his own men to fight for him (how the fuck is Robb planning to get home?), and looks 100% pussywhipped in front of his nobles? I'm surprised they didn't turn on him immediately! Maybe next season.

I think they're already turning on him, although we won't know for sure until next season. The guy whose son was murdered by Jaime is sending his men all over the place to hunt him down, which is probably why Brienne and Jaime encountered them on the road.

Speaking of Brienne and Jaime, I wish they'd been able to end it with them encountering the Brave Companions (a mercenary troop). Now that would have ended his story arc for this season with a "holy shit!" moment.

14) With several feminists on hand, there was quite a lot of eye-rolling at the gratuitous boobage in the series ("All this tits and ass and what do we get? A naked, retarded giant!"), but Bronn's girl elicited the following exchange between me and the SO:

HBO's been egging on the directors and producers to amp up the sex and nudity. That was in the podcast posted up-thread with Neil Marshal, the guy who directed this episode. He had an HBO executive leaning over his shoulder and repeatedly urging him to go full-frontal with the prostitute hanging out with Bronn.

As for naked guys, just let her know that there's a very, very high chance that she'll see Jon Snow's ass next season.

4) The consensus among female viewers at our party was that Danerys needs to sleep with Jorah Mormont already. When I asked if the age difference wasn't "problematic" I was treated to four of these:

I suppose it's not as weird as in the books, where she's 14 and he's at least three times as old as she is. That could work.

10) Doesn't Arya still have another name with Jaquen?

Nah, she used her first two on the Ticker and Amory Lorch (the guy who dropped dead in the doorway), and then cheated with her last name.

[fgalkin]

Sure Tyrion loves Shae, and their relationship is consensual, but it's still problematic" and a discussion about whether a scene in Blackwater passed the Bechdel Test -it didn't.)

What about that scene where Cersei questions Shae about herself?

2) While we're on the subject of the Night's Watch, why do they wear solid black when they're trying to do recon in the fucking snow? My girlfriend likes Samwell for some reason (NOT in the Team Gendry vs Team Jon way), and shouted "HIDE!" at the screen. Of course he can't hide in the snow because (a) he's dressed in all black like Zorro and (b) he's a really big fat guy dressed in all black like Zorro.

They wear solid black because their real job is to wait for the Long Night (by all indications, an actual polar night years long) and hold the Wall against the White Walkers. Black clothes generally help in the dark. I imagine there is also the thing that their enemies are the WHITE Walkers, and so they try to look the opposite.

Why they haven't changed the clothes when ranging outside? I imagine it's because they don't have hundreds of spare fur coats lying around, and because they don't really understand camouflage.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Spoonist]

Elfdart - seriuosly, why are you in the spoilers thread?
Any answers/confirmations to your assumptions and questions, will, you know, spoil things?

[Surlethe]

13) Jon Snow is a bastard and I understand there's been a lot of speculation about his true parentage, but there's no doubt whatsoever that Robb Stark is the son of Ned and Catelyn who, aside from Theon and Vaserys, are the two biggest dumbfucks in this show. So he marries the foreign girl, pisses off the guy who let him cross the fortified bridge south AND sent thousands of his own men to fight for him (how the fuck is Robb planning to get home?), and looks 100% pussywhipped in front of his nobles? I'm surprised they didn't turn on him immediately! Maybe next season.

Remember who was sent to retake Winterfell from Theon and what that person did to the castle?

[Guardsman Bass]

The Tyrion-Shae relationship is dysfunctional, and I don't think the show has done a solid job of showing that. Tyrion, against his better judgment, is falling in love with the prostitute he hired to be a fantasy girlfriend back in Season One. That seriously back-fires on him in A Storm of Swords, but the limitations of screen-time mean that we haven't really gotten a sense of how his emotional baggage causes him to fall for the fantasy even when he's constantly telling himself that Shae "only loves him for his gold."

Elfdart - seriuosly, why are you in the spoilers thread?
Any answers/confirmations to your assumptions and questions, will, you know, spoil things?

He already said up-thread that he

1. Just scrolls over spoiler parts real fast, and

2. Can guess what happens anyways, since the show telegraphs everything. He's been pretty accurate so far, too.

[Blayne]

How many Dathraki does Dany have right now? I got the impression that most died when the dragons were stolen but more showed up.

Why did the King of Qarth have nothing in his vault? Or have a vault at all where is his wealth? Just stuff around the house or in transactions/guilds?

Also why did the warlocks think they could keep Dany and the dragons captive? They had to know they would eventually breath fire right?

I really liked Dany's and her Knight-Pirate's (He's a knight that dresses like a pirate, Stannis on the other hand has a Pirate-Knight as he's an honorable Pirate, I nickname them) character development this episode and I think I'll read the books now while waiting for season three.

[Elfdart]

HBO's been egging on the directors and producers to amp up the sex and nudity. That was in the podcast posted up-thread with Neil Marshal, the guy who directed this episode. He had an HBO executive leaning over his shoulder and repeatedly urging him to go full-frontal with the prostitute hanging out with Bronn.

As for naked guys, just let her know that there's a very, very high chance that she'll see Jon Snow's ass next season.

Her friend was the one complaining about Hodor. Anyway, my SO wouldn't care about Jon Snow since she thinks he might be gay (see upthread). Now Gendry is a different story...

What about that scene where Cersei questions Shae about herself?

If I could get a word in edgewise when that bunch gets started, I just might try to bring up facts. However, I have a better chance of winning one of the office betting pools.

Elfdart - seriuosly, why are you in the spoilers thread?
Any answers/confirmations to your assumptions and questions, will, you know, spoil things?

There are two kinds of spoilers: What happens in Season 2, and what happens later. The first kind isn't really a problem since the season ended last night. The second kind would be a problem for me were it not for the fact that by next April, when we see just how bad Robb fucked up I'm not going to remember much of anything in this thread anyway.

[Chirios]

The biggest problems this season has had are: missed opportunities and pacing.

The major example of missed opportunities is the storyline north of the wall. Jon is in a country filled with Eldritch monstrosities, enemy forces, and harsh terrain. All we got was one out of three. Yes, it's true to the books, but frankly, fuck the books. GRRM =/= God. Yes, some of the fans would've whined if they had changed things, but the whole point of an adaptation is that you can change things to make it better. The Tywin/Arya plot thread is another missed opportunity.

Pacing was one problem that I was afraid of, and while it wasn't that bad, it was still present. Several times, character threads had to slow down to tortoise pace in order to get all the little details in, Dany's story is an example of this. Only at the very last minute did the character take action for herself, before she was just being led along a path. Frankly, as close as they're currently sticking to the books storyline, it's only going to get worse with time. They have two options: increase the number of eps per season, otherwise AFFC is going to be one of the most boring seasons of television in history.

All in all, I liked it though. True, the characters need a little more agency, and the pacing most definitely needs work, but it was fun to watch and nothing really broke my sense of immersion. Not as good as the first season, but still, pretty damn good.

[Mr Bean]

So let me say this again.

Two seasons down has Ros been in a single scene that was worth a damn?
Cause I asked last season and the answer was a resounding no.

[Chirios]

So let me say this again.

Two seasons down has Ros been in a single scene that was worth a damn?
Cause I asked last season and the answer was a resounding no.

I could say no in other languages...

[Guardsman Bass]

I think Ros had two great scenes:

1. Her little conversation with Varys, where she felt his non-penis.

2. The creepy conversation she had with Littlefinger, where he started by consoling her over the sorrow she was feeling for the dead baby, and steadily moved into a story about how Littlefinger really, really hates it when an "asset" doesn't pay out, so she'd better stop crying and get back to work.

[jollyreaper]

I'd say my two big disappointments are with Jon Snow and Daenerys.

I haven't read the books but I've read the complaints. In terms of show pacing, I see exactly what people were fearing. I loved Snow's introduction. There appeared to be some real potential for interesting development with his character. Doubly so with Daenerys. Loved everything with her in that first season, seeing her go from cringing girl-bride to a worthy mate of not-Genghis.

I was stoked with the way Snow's story ended with them going beyond the Wall in season 1. I can sum up his storyline this season as a giant yawn. It sounds like the book had good things going on for him here but not much made it to the television. With Daenerys, the slowness of the book translated to the screen.

I agree that a literal translation of the book isn't needed so much as a thematic one. What do they need to accomplish with Snow? I'm not entirely sure. Ultimately it's setting up the first battle with the snow zombies. With Daenerys it seems a little more clear. She seems completely screwed in the end of S1 and steps out of the fire with freaking dragons. Wow. Best end of a season ever. And after that it's just fapping about in the desert and then going to the city of creeps and losing the dragons and meeting with creepy old shits.

From the complaints I hear, that whole sequence was about as terrible in the books. I'm assuming that her arc is supposed to be her becoming a credible war queen and building an army to fight for the Iron Throne. From what I understand, she's still not anywhere near close to accomplishing this. And this has the potential to be a serious, major problem. They're talking about two seasons per book, three books published that haven't been filmed, six seasons total and she's still not back in Westeros?

Frankly, I have no idea how they're going to fix this. Daenerys should be building herself up as the dragon queen of the east. She should have a natural power base with the Dothraki hordes. She could build an empire in the east with the intent of going home a conqueror but becomes bogged down in internal affairs. Will she ever come back to Westeros as a conqueror?

If I understand the pacing right, the whole story is supposed to feel like a low-fantasy political struggle between jerkass factions and then it becomes a high-fantasy magical threat when the snow zombies show themselves and winter comes. In that situation, Daenerys could end up being the savior of Westeros instead of the conqueror. All the claimants to the Iron Throne have squandered their resources in the War of Five Kings and now Daenerys and her dragons represents the hidden reserve to use against the zombies.

I really like the show and the characters but fear that they may have bitten off more than they can chew. It's making me think of Akira where they tried to trim down a six volume manga to 125 minutes of film.

I know that all fiction basically amounts to making up a story but there's figuring out the tale you want to tell before you begin and there's writing by the seat of your pants. It really does sound like GRRM had no real idea where he was going when he started. Some tales "grow in the telling" but seriously, sometimes it needs editing in the telling!