GoT:Clash of Kings Season 2 Spoiler Free

[Mr Bean]

This thread is for discussion of the Show Game of Thrones Season 2, all comments are to be spoiler free.
Don't even bring up the books, this is the thread for people who have only watched the TV show and could care less about the books.

Season Premiere in less than an hour for the very first episode

[Elfdart]

I just watched it and a few things struck me as odd:

1) Is Joffrey going to just emulate every sicko despot in movie history? Is the author going through a checklist?

Young Damien Thorne? Check
Caligula? Check
Nero? Check
Herod? Check
Ramses? Check

So how many more of these does Martin go through? Does Joffrey annex the Sudetenland? Eat his victims with fava beans? Shoot lightning out of his fingertips while shouting "UNLIMITEDDDD POWAAAAAH!"? This is getting very silly. I thought he was depraved enough as it was. He'll probably attack Bran in his dreams with razors strapped to his fingers next.

2) How fast do these wolves grow? I assume it's only been a few weeks since Robb seized Jamie, yet his wolf is now the size of a cow.

3) There was a gratuitous sex scene but Ros wasn't the one appearing naked?

4) Are the Lannisters supposed to be stupid as well as wicked? Not one of them so much as proposes that they take Robb up on his offer, then betray him immediately if they manage to fight off the dead king's brothers. The only Lannister who shows any kind of evil smarts is Tywin and he's not in this episode.

[Mr Bean]

2) How fast do these wolves grow? I assume it's only been a few weeks since Robb seized Jamie, yet his wolf is now the size of a cow.

It's been roughly three months by show timeline between season 1 and Season 2

3) There was a gratuitous sex scene but Ros wasn't the one appearing naked?

I did not notice this myself but Ros is running the brothel I know, shocked me. Also pointed out it's a repeat of the lesson from Season 1, so now you know how to be a better prostitute.

[TheHammer]

2) How fast do these wolves grow? I assume it's only been a few weeks since Robb seized Jamie, yet his wolf is now the size of a cow.

It seems to me that they grow pretty damn fast. I happened to catch the first episode from season one and right before Bran is tossed from the window, his direwolf is very much a small pup. By the time the assassination attempt is made it had grown to German Sheppard size. Was something I didn't really catch the first time around.

[Terralthra]

Wolves in general are known for fast growth rates as pups. The Wikipedia has a sourced claim that pups go from 300-500g at birth to 15 kilos in their first four months, while sexual maturity ("adulthood") happens between 1-2 years. Dire Wolves must just be the exaggeration of that trend.

[Bright]

4) Are the Lannisters supposed to be stupid as well as wicked? Not one of them so much as proposes that they take Robb up on his offer, then betray him immediately if they manage to fight off the dead king's brothers. The only Lannister who shows any kind of evil smarts is Tywin and he's not in this episode.

I got the feeling Robb gave them those terms knowing they wouldn't be accepted (since they involve giving away half the kingdom). Also, it's really not a good idea to let one of your enemies sit at the sidelines and strengthen their position while you exhaust your forces fighting two other enemies. The Lannisters wouldn't be in any position to betray the Starks after that barring some sort of miracle.

[FaxModem1]

I liked the pan down from the comet to each character. It seemed to connect the world rather well.

I really thought this was how Littlefinger was going to eat it. And now what Joffrey is killing anyone with the slightest bit of royal bastard in them, I imagine that the city is only going to tolerate him because Winter is Coming, and they need someone to feed them grain. He prevents that, and well, there's something about hungry peasants and asshole monarchs, it usually ends with someone losing their head.

[Dread Not]

Good shit. At one point I turned to my girlfriend and said "Are we going to get more than one scene for any character?" Fortunately that feeling didn't last throughout the episode, though it does sadden me that the characters are so split up that we get to see so little of each of them. The final sequence really sealed it. That was some shocking stuff, and it didn't feel cheap like it was purely done for the shock value. I've been dying for weeks for the premiere to arrive and it didn't disappoint, and now I can hardly wait for next Sunday to roll around.

[Elfdart]

My SO told me she wants a baby dragon, and became hostile when I told her the ones in the show are not real.

[fgalkin]

I just watched it and a few things struck me as odd:

4) Are the Lannisters supposed to be stupid as well as wicked? Not one of them so much as proposes that they take Robb up on his offer, then betray him immediately if they manage to fight off the dead king's brothers. The only Lannister who shows any kind of evil smarts is Tywin and he's not in this episode.

Here's the thing, though, consider what what would happen if they did that. First, they'll exchange the Stark girls for Jaime Lannister, which is good, but now they lose their hostages. Second, by agreeing to partition the kingdom, even if they have no intention of keeping their word, they will still lose political capital. Finally, and this is not very clear in the show, but the North is large and sparesely populated, and accessible only via a bottleneck (a causeway through the swamps protected by a fortress). If they let Robb go back to the North, which he will once he gets Arya and Sansa, they would still have to defeat him, but they would have to fight a land war in Russia to do it. Much better to do it when he's in the Riverlands (it's closer to their own center of power, far from the Starks', and the Riverlands are Catelyn's home turf, so any damage they sustain from having several large hungry armies to feed is a good thing).

So, no, accepting Robb's terms is a very bad thing for the Lannisters, which is what Robb has been counting on all along.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

but the North is large and sparesely populated, and accessible only via a bottleneck (a causeway through the swamps protected by a fortress). If they let Robb go back to the North, which he will once he gets Arya and Sansa, they would still have to defeat him, but they would have to fight a land war in Russia to do it.

Actually this part is made clear visually if not verbally as both Stannis famous painted table which we saw has a giant map of Westeros and that small land bridge is visible as well as the show intro when we zoom north to see the Wall and we get the scope of the land and see the North is the size of the entire other six kingdoms combined by itself and then some (When you add in whats beyond the wall). That part is going to be made more clear in future episodes this season according to the leaked reviews of episode two.

[fgalkin]

Yeah, here's a map of Westeros. The North is HUGE. And cold. And sparsely populated. In other words, terrible for armies.

EDIT: In fact, this is why Robb was only able to raise 18k men, same as the Lannisters (compare the size of the Westerlands to the North), while Renly has an army 100k strong. Any invading army in the North better be small or have REALLY good logistics.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[TheHammer]

Yeah, here's a map of Westeros. The North is HUGE. And cold. And sparsely populated. In other words, terrible for armies.

EDIT: In fact, this is why Robb was only able to raise 18k men, same as the Lannisters (compare the size of the Westerlands to the North), while Renly has an army 100k strong. Any invading army in the North better be small or have REALLY good logistics.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

It seems to me you should always take numbers mentioned in this series with a grain of salt. On an early season one episode they described the Dothraki army as being 100,000 strong, and later touted as only 40,000 strong.

[fgalkin]

I believe the words were "a hundred thousand screamers," but it's been a while so I may be wrong. In that case, he's probably referring to the size of the entire Khalasar, which includes women and children, slaves, and other noncombattants. It may well be that Khal Drogo's Khalasar of 100,000 had only 40,000 warriors.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[spaceviking]

They may have been referring to multiple hordes, with Drago the largest at 40,000. I think Daenys brother was promised 10,000 riders?

Oh, did anyone see what Joffery is building in the throne room? I read the books but I don't remember the decor change.

[TheHammer]

I believe the words were "a hundred thousand screamers," but it's been a while so I may be wrong. In that case, he's probably referring to the size of the entire Khalasar, which includes women and children, slaves, and other noncombattants. It may well be that Khal Drogo's Khalasar of 100,000 had only 40,000 warriors.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Well I believe the numerical misinformation is intentional by the writers as we've seen it countless times when talking about opposing forces. When talking about one's own army the numbers can be taken more litterally, however when talking about another's forces those numbers are often inflated or obscured via the fog of war.

It's possible Renly does have 100,000 men, but if true it seems to me that a Dothraki invasion consisting of 40,000 troops would not be near the threat they were made out to be on sheer numbers alone and that's even before considering the makeup of their army consisting almost entirely of light cavalry.

[Elfdart]

Game of Thrones has officially made it to the bigtime: Some jackass at Salon (where else?) is calling it "racist":

LINK

[Mr Bean]

If you read the piece you'll notice the author goes on to talk about a lot of what Tolken wrote that was lets be blunt kinda racist and something of a trope of the mean old dark skin evil empire be it mean or elves. However what the pieces fails to mention is any racism so far in GoT.

Now as for Martin and racism there is a case to be made, but not in the spoiler free thread.

[fgalkin]

Game of Thrones has officially made it to the bigtime: Some jackass at Salon (where else?) is calling it "racist":

LINK

Uh....did you read the article? If anything, he says quite the opposite:

Ultimately, A Song of Ice and Fire, like the Lord of the Rings, is the work of a brilliant and conscientious writer who is nonetheless writing in his own time and place. The United States in 2012 is, far too often, and even with a black president, still a culture rich in racist stereotypes and xenophobic fear-mongering. Expecting a writer to remain entirely unstained by this is expecting a person to live underwater without getting wet. If we still find troubling racial assumptions and caricatures in fantasy – whether on the page, or on the big or small screen — this probably tells us more about our culture-wide problems than it does about a single writer’s, or a single show’s issues. A Song of Ice and Fire is indeed our American Lord of the Rings, and if Westeros has its race problems, they are simply a powerful reflection of America’s

It's only racist as much as America is racist. Which is true.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Elfdart]

Game of Thrones has officially made it to the bigtime: Some jackass at Salon (where else?) is calling it "racist":

LINK

Uh....did you read the article? If anything, he says quite the opposite:

Ultimately, A Song of Ice and Fire, like the Lord of the Rings, is the work of a brilliant and conscientious writer who is nonetheless writing in his own time and place. The United States in 2012 is, far too often, and even with a black president, still a culture rich in racist stereotypes and xenophobic fear-mongering. Expecting a writer to remain entirely unstained by this is expecting a person to live underwater without getting wet. If we still find troubling racial assumptions and caricatures in fantasy – whether on the page, or on the big or small screen — this probably tells us more about our culture-wide problems than it does about a single writer’s, or a single show’s issues. A Song of Ice and Fire is indeed our American Lord of the Rings, and if Westeros has its race problems, they are simply a powerful reflection of America’s

It's only racist as much as America is racist. Which is true.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Of course he doesn't come right out and call the series racist, but he does use weasel words to insinuate it:

When it comes to inherited conventions regarding race in epic fantasy, “Game of Thrones” is, in a sense, standing on the shoulders of dwarfs. The Lord of the Rings is the most obvious predecessor to Martin’s work, and it’s not hard to find subtle rhetorical responses to Tolkien in his books. When Time magazine dubbed Martin “the American Tolkien,” it highlighted not only Martin’s rather astonishing genius in world-building and narrative scope, but also the ideological baggage that all of us writing in the genre have inherited from our shared progenitor.

Translation:

"I'm not saying Game of Thrones is racist but it's descended from Lord of the Rings, which is racist, and the author is steeped in American society and can't help but be racist, blah blah blah..."

[Xon]

Not 10 minutes in and the councilers are saying they have enough grain stockpiled for a 5 year winter.

I think this firmly puts to rest the idea that that insane place doesn't have crazy long winters.

[spaceviking]

Well the stockpile might just be enough to compensate for shorter growing seasons in the winter. Winter is coming but most of it might be pretty wild.

[Chirios]

I just watched it and a few things struck me as odd:

1) Is Joffrey going to just emulate every sicko despot in movie history? Is the author going through a checklist?

Young Damien Thorne? Check
Caligula? Check
Nero? Check
Herod? Check
Ramses? Check

So how many more of these does Martin go through? Does Joffrey annex the Sudetenland? Eat his victims with fava beans? Shoot lightning out of his fingertips while shouting "UNLIMITEDDDD POWAAAAAH!"? This is getting very silly. I thought he was depraved enough as it was. He'll probably attack Bran in his dreams with razors strapped to his fingers next.

Lol.

2) How fast do these wolves grow? I assume it's only been a few weeks since Robb seized Jamie, yet his wolf is now the size of a cow.

It's been a few months I think.

3) There was a gratuitous sex scene but Ros wasn't the one appearing naked?

She's a madam now. She doesn't get naked, she tells other people how to get naked.

4) Are the Lannisters supposed to be stupid as well as wicked? Not one of them so much as proposes that they take Robb up on his offer, then betray him immediately if they manage to fight off the dead king's brothers. The only Lannister who shows any kind of evil smarts is Tywin and he's not in this episode.

I don't think the offer reaches the other Lannisters at this point. But don't forget Cersei's speech from season 1: "The north is too wild... and when the winter comes the Gods themselves couldn't help [you]". If Robb just says "fuck it", heads North and sits his ass down, the Southerners likely wouldn't be able to do anything about it. If they agree to his proposal, then try and invade once they kill the Baratheons, they'd have to fight a winter campaign against the Northerners on the Northerners home ground. Which is a bad idea.

[lordofchange13]

Not 10 minutes in and the councilers are saying they have enough grain stockpiled for a 5 year winter.

I think this firmly puts to rest the idea that that insane place doesn't have crazy long winters.

And he was scared of the winter lasting longer!

[Elfdart]

Another question about the new episode: How does the creepy old man who lives north of the Wall and rapes his own daughters get away with making one threat after another against Mormont and his men? It's one old pedophile against a bunch of rangers who would be justified in chopping him immediately, yet they take his verbal abuse just like his poor daughters take his physical abuse.

What gives?