GoT:Clash of Kings Season 2 Spoiler Free

[Koolaidkirby]

I found the finale to be the worst episode of the season, eclipsing even the horrid "Garden of Bones." Why the shit are the white walkers coming now? There was so much buildup in season one and they just have them appear here, with very little talk about them over the course of nearly 10 hours? Dinklage let me down for the first time when he tried to emote after learning about Shae's commitment to him and where he currently stands. the characte work is fine, but the acting isn't. Jon Snow's plot line was completely wasted here. We get a duel, which is fine and all, and then we stop short of him meeting the King. All of that felt very inconsequential given that his development has been awful this season.

The only positives I can think of are: Daenerys usurping those who set her up; Osha, Bran, his brother, Hodor, and Maester Luwin; and Brienne showing her prowess and possibly scaring Jaime to death.

did you miss how the Wildlings always wanted the dead bodies burnt? and how the whole reason they were all gathering together out of fear of something?

[JLTucker]

I did. That doesn't make up for poor writing to attempt to build it up and actually have me fear for the characters. I felt nothing. I am not scared for Sam. I am not scared for Snow and the others. Contrast this with the excellent development and the fear the White Walkers put into the Nights Watch in the first season. It was the perfect opposition to the wildly-flaunted rule of "show, don't tell." The exposition about how dangerous these things are worked far better than seeing a few scenes with the wildlings talking gathering together.

The problem is that this season introduced so much shit that for it to fit well in a cohesive narrative in only 10 or so hours felt impossible while watching it over the last ten weeks. The finale cemented that impossibility. The season has been hit and miss and I must say it is below average for HBO productions, especially coming off a near-flawless first season. I think it's telling that a character I have despised for the entire season due to poor writing (Daenerys) ended up having one of the most interesting scenes in the episode.

[Vympel]

I found the finale to be the worst episode of the season, eclipsing even the horrid "Garden of Bones." Why the shit are the white walkers coming now? There was so much buildup in season one and they just have them appear here, with very little talk about them over the course of nearly 10 hours?

I imagine because they expect people to remember Season 1. That's a hit or miss tactic (failed spectacularly in Spartacus Season 2 in one particular regard), personally I don't see a problem with it in this case. And we already saw White Walkers this season. Back when Jon was following Craster to see what he was doing with the male children.

[Guardsman Bass]

That explains why they actually showed a White Walker in that episode. I criticized it at the time, but it makes sense in order to remind the audience that they're active.

I do think they should have shot that scene at a darker time in the day, or even at night. Night tends to make battles look better, and I think the Walker and its army of corpses would have seemed much more threatening in the darkness (particularly since it would hint that there's even more of them behind the ones we see).

[Vympel]

My short comments are in the spoiler thread (summary: I loved it) - So yeah, can't wait for Elfdart to comment on Robb getting married (we all knew it was coming) to his foreign woman and throwing the alliance with House Frey to the side.

[Bright]

Dinklage let me down for the first time when he tried to emote after learning about Shae's commitment to him and where he currently stands. the characte work is fine, but the acting isn't.

The hell are you talking about?

[JLTucker]

Dinklage let me down for the first time when he tried to emote after learning about Shae's commitment to him and where he currently stands. the characte work is fine, but the acting isn't.

The hell are you talking about?

His performance was laughable?

[Bright]

How exactly was it laughable? I mean, many of your criticisms are pretty thin, but casting aspersions at Peter Dinklage, one of the stand-out actors on television right now?

[JLTucker]

How exactly was it laughable? I mean, many of your criticisms are pretty thin, but casting aspersions at Peter Dinklage, one of the stand-out actors on television right now?

I did not find it convincing. His facial expressions looked like those from someone who was constipated.

Feel free to respond to my thin criticisms.

[JLTucker]

I imagine because they expect people to remember Season 1. That's a hit or miss tactic (failed spectacularly in Spartacus Season 2 in one particular regard), personally I don't see a problem with it in this case. And we already saw White Walkers this season. Back when Jon was following Craster to see what he was doing with the male children.

Yeah. I think they may have also wanted people to view the season before the premiere. I did that but I still didn't feel the anxiety and fear of the White Walkers carried over into season two. Perhaps it's because of the weekly television routine? I still think the revelation of them gathering and moving forward would have worked better in season one given the mass exposition about them. Perhaps my opinion will change if I watch both seasons again in succession instead of waiting weekly?

[Meest]

When someone gets that deep cringe while crying to me makes it more real, have you not seen a grown man cry? Especially when trying to hold it in and then it bursts out. It took me straight back to a funeral, it was a good cry acting wise compared to slow blinky eyes leaking. He's at his lowest point and she's the only one standing by his side, only complaint maybe would be if Tyrion seems too emo, but he seems like a standup guy that had to fight for respect his whole life.

[loomer]

How exactly was it laughable? I mean, many of your criticisms are pretty thin, but casting aspersions at Peter Dinklage, one of the stand-out actors on television right now?

I did not find it convincing. His facial expressions looked like those from someone who was constipated.

Feel free to respond to my thin criticisms.

You have terrible judgement. Dinklage impressed me in that scene, and I'm normally unfazed by actors crying because it's clear that they're pretending to. With Dinklage, it felt very, terribly real.

[RogueIce]

So, yeah, the Mother of Dragons had the best bits. Outside of that, it was, I dunno, a little meh. Robb's thinking with the wrong head here, but that's not anything new, right? And what the fuck is Sansa's problem, wanting to stay in King's Landing? I mean seriously, what the fuck? Keeping in mind this is the "no book spoilers" thread so fuck off if you've got book spoilers, but I seriously can't see what is supposed to be keeping her there. Aside from idiocy.

But enough about the Starks being idiots. I thought the Dwarf's scene was pretty good, myself. Jon gets a little movement, I guess. Still not sure what the plan was with killing the other Night Watch guy, but there's finally some movement on that plotline between Snow meeting the King Beyond the Wall and the Ice Monster thingies. So there's that.

Otherwise, it didn't feel like terribly much happened this season, TBH. I mean outside of character growth and development, but...Joffrey is still king, Robb seems to be sitting on his ass for some reason, Sansa is still in King's Landing (totally should have left with the Hound, but well Starks are dumb yadda yadda), and Stannis epic failed because of Act of Plot? I dunno, maybe I'm misremembering the episodes, but it seemed to me that Tywinn sortied out to go after Robb Stark, but then he shows up in the nick of time to save King's Landing?

Seems the only events to really move forward this season is that the Kahlesi has herself a boat and the stuff beyond the Wall. All the civil war stuff seems to have been for nothing thanks to Tywinn showing up out of nowhere and Robb apparently being more concerned with "love" than actually doing anything with his army.

Also, what was up with Winterfell burning? The impression I had with Theon's men was that they knocked him out to leave, presumably exchanging him for passage home? So why would they want to burn Winterfell? And if not them, who? The 500 Northmen who were supposed to free it? Why would they burn it? It just seems odd to me. Maybe next season will tell us, and give Robb Stark a motivation other than "lol I'm in love fuck it all".

Maybe. Starks = morons seems to be a family trait. Well, except for the two young boys and Arya. Arya is awesome, by the way. Best of the Starks by far.

[Mr Bean]

So, yeah, the Mother of Dragons had the best bits. Outside of that, it was, I dunno, a little meh. Robb's thinking with the wrong head here, but that's not anything new, right? And what the fuck is Sansa's problem, wanting to stay in King's Landing? I mean seriously, what the fuck? Keeping in mind this is the "no book spoilers" thread so fuck off if you've got book spoilers, but I seriously can't see what is supposed to be keeping her there. Aside from idiocy.

Littlefinger put a dagger to her fathers throat and is the prime reason why Ned lost his power play and his head because he bought the Goldcloaks on Ned's behalf then sold them to the Lannnisters behind his back. Now that guy who's been giving off giant creep waves the entire time she's known him offers to take her away from Joffery? And she's been spending the last few months being tested daily to ensure she's loyal to Joffery else she gets beaten?

Yeah I'd jump right on that chance to that he's telling the truth and this is not Joffery scheme number 30 to get me to say disloyal things so I can be punished.
And that's 100% show knowledge based response.

Seems the only events to really move forward this season is that the Kahlesi has herself a boat and the stuff beyond the Wall. All the civil war stuff seems to have been for nothing thanks to Tywinn showing up out of nowhere and Robb apparently being more concerned with "love" than actually doing anything with his army.

Season 1 ended with Five Kings, now there are three, Rob VS the Lannisters where before there was Stannis, Renly, Rob, Joffery and Baleon now there is just Rob, Joffery and Baleon. Stannis is still alive true but he just lost most of his army.

[Surlethe]

Stannis epic failed because of Act of Plot? I dunno, maybe I'm misremembering the episodes, but it seemed to me that Tywinn sortied out to go after Robb Stark, but then he shows up in the nick of time to save King's Landing?

I read that as intentional misdirection on Tywin's part. Tywin let it be known that he was sortieing after Robb to confuse any spies Stannis and Robb had with him. Instead he forced a march overnight to King's Landing to break the siege and save Joffrey's ass. This was foreshadowed in council during a Tywin/Arya scene when Tywin was pointing out that if Joffrey lost King's Landing, there was no point to continuing the war.

Also, what was up with Winterfell burning? The impression I had with Theon's men was that they knocked him out to leave, presumably exchanging him for passage home? So why would they want to burn Winterfell? And if not them, who? The 500 Northmen who were supposed to free it? Why would they burn it?

In the immortal words of Sherlock Holmes,* "Now you're asking the right questions."

* Sherlock, Season 1, Episode 2.

[Scrib]

I found the finale to be the worst episode of the season, eclipsing even the horrid "Garden of Bones." Why the shit are the white walkers coming now? There was so much buildup in season one and they just have them appear here, with very little talk about them over the course of nearly 10 hours?

I imagine because they expect people to remember Season 1. That's a hit or miss tactic (failed spectacularly in Spartacus Season 2 in one particular regard), personally I don't see a problem with it in this case. And we already saw White Walkers this season. Back when Jon was following Craster to see what he was doing with the male children.

Just curious, what mistake in the second season of Spartacus are you talking about?

As for the show, the whole scene at Winterfell made no sense. If the Northmen burnt down the town then Luwin should have fucking said so. If it was the Ironborn one would assume that they had to go through the Northmen, why would they burn Winterfell if they needed Robb's pardon? Why would they come back? It seems like a cheap trick here imo so they can have a gotcha moment next season, not to mention save money. Why would the Northmen burn Winterfell? If it was the Ironborn then the Starks should have just stayed fucking hidden instead of trusting a 17 year old boy to protect them in an extremely diverse organization that may have as many foes as allies. If he had said Jeor Mormont then I would have understood.

As for Dany, not much happened here with her imo. That Drogo scene was just meh and the resolution of the Undying plot was as boring as in the books. That said, she is starting to act like book Dany, what with her locking in Doreah to die a terrible death. She's always had a fucked up idea of justice.

Robb is as big a shit as ever. I honestly have no sympathy for him any more. I'm just done with him and his PoliSci liberal undergrad girlfriend that seems to have walked off some protest site.

Dinklage's performance didn't grab me. None of his scenes with Shae resonate at all. I just can't see any basis for the relationship, Dinklage is great but not only do I see no chemistry I see nothing that explains how the relationship shifted from whore-client to love birds. It feels even more cliche and sappy than Robb's romance with the Berkeley student as someone put it. And without that understanding Dinklage is just acting into a hole, nothing sticks, not even that scene where he bursts in to make sure that Shae is safe after Ros is whipped.

[Vympel]

As for the show, the whole scene at Winterfell made no sense. If the Northmen burnt down the town then Luwin should have fucking said so. If it was the Ironborn one would assume that they had to go through the Northmen, why would they burn Winterfell if they needed Robb's pardon? Why would they come back? It seems like a cheap trick here imo so they can have a gotcha moment next season, not to mention save money. Why would the Northmen burn Winterfell? If it was the Ironborn then the Starks should have just stayed fucking hidden instead of trusting a 17 year old boy to protect them in an extremely diverse organization that may have as many foes as allies. If he had said Jeor Mormont then I would have understood.

I don't really understand your post. If you've read the books, then how does the scene at Winterfell make no sense? And how would Luwin know what happened, given he was stabbed in the gut right before?

Further, Luwin is going to convince the boys to go to the Wall by telling two very young kids the name of a man they've never even met and have probably never heard of, as opposed to their beloved half brother? Really?

Just curious, what mistake in the second season of Spartacus are you talking about?

Ashur's finale. They expected the audience to remember the thing with Naevia in Season 1, but they didn't even mention it all throughout Season 2, so when it came up in the last episode it was just a big "huh? how is that appropriate?" from me and everyone I knew.

[Scrib]

I don't really understand your post. If you've read the books, then how does the scene at Winterfell make no sense? And how would Luwin know what happened, given he was stabbed in the gut right before?

Further, Luwin is going to convince the boys to go to the Wall by telling two very young kids the name of a man they've never even met and have probably never heard of, as opposed to their beloved half brother? Really?

I shouldn't need to read the book to understand the plot of the series. From a series perspective it makes little sense and is just a head scratcher for it's own sake so next season we can have this supposed big reveal. It's seems cheap. The scene with Luwin also makes little sense without book knowledge.

Luwin was stabbed in the gut, he wasn't knocked unconscious, he clearly had enough in him to drag himself to safety. And if he was unconscious, he would have assumed that the Ironborn fled after burning the city, and that it was now in the hands of Northern loyalists or they left. Why he would want them to run from that is not clear.

Luwin should at least give directions to Osha, it would be helpful for her to know who exactly to go to.

Just curious, what mistake in the second season of Spartacus are you talking about?

Ashur's finale. They expected the audience to remember the thing with Naevia in Season 1, but they didn't even mention it all throughout Season 2, so when it came up in the last episode it was just a big "huh? how is that appropriate?" from me and everyone I knew.

Oh, that, I was too busy alternating rolling my eyes and cringing to even remember the lack of foreshadowing. It does seem wtf in retrospect I guess.

[Vympel]

I shouldn't need to read the book to understand the plot of the series.

If your complaint is "non-readers wouldn't understand what happened" - well, what's wrong with that? Bran and Rickon don't know what happened either. The audience can find out what they do. There's nothing wrong with a little mystery.

From a series perspective it makes little sense and is just a head scratcher for it's own sake so next season we can have this supposed big reveal. It's seems cheap. The scene with Luwin also makes little sense without book knowledge.

Luwin was stabbed in the gut, he wasn't knocked unconscious, he clearly had enough in him to drag himself to safety. And if he was unconscious, he would have assumed that the Ironborn fled after burning the city, and that it was now in the hands of Northern loyalists or they left. Why he would want them to run from that is not clear.

Drag himself to safety when? For all we know he only came to when it was over. And the castle obviously in the hands of Northeners because its abandoned and burned to the ground.

Luwin should at least give directions to Osha, it would be helpful for her to know who exactly to go to.

Bran would know from any of the maps he'd have to study. The Kingsroad goes north straight to Castle Black, all they need do is roughly follow it (i.e. stay next to it, not on it).

[Scrib]

I shouldn't need to read the book to understand the plot of the series.

If your complaint is "non-readers wouldn't understand what happened" - well, what's wrong with that? Bran and Rickon don't know what happened either. The audience can find out what they do. There's nothing wrong with a little mystery.

I don't know, I think there's good mystery, which makes sense in the context of the story, like say the mystery of who exactly killed Jon Arryn. We're not supposed to know this because the characters we're following don't. It's logical. The other seems like the writers deliberately keeping something from us to confuse us when it makes no sense. "Cheating" if you would.

From a series perspective it makes little sense and is just a head scratcher for it's own sake so next season we can have this supposed big reveal. It's seems cheap. The scene with Luwin also makes little sense without book knowledge.

Luwin was stabbed in the gut, he wasn't knocked unconscious, he clearly had enough in him to drag himself to safety. And if he was unconscious, he would have assumed that the Ironborn fled after burning the city, and that it was now in the hands of Northern loyalists or they left. Why he would want them to run from that is not clear.

Drag himself to safety when? For all we know he only came to when it was over. And the castle obviously in the hands of Northeners because its abandoned and burned to the ground.[/quote]

Luwin was stabbed in the courtyard. He ended up in the weirwood. I don't think he teleported. He seemed to be awake when the Ironborn left him. If they left then then he should know that it was the Northerners. He should fucking tell Bran and Osha and the rest that their supposed allies are burning shit down.

Luwin should at least give directions to Osha, it would be helpful for her to know who exactly to go to.

Bran would know from any of the maps he'd have to study. The Kingsroad goes north straight to Castle Black, all they need do is roughly follow it (i.e. stay next to it, not on it).

[/quote]

I didn't mean directions like that, I meant "This is Jeor Mormont, the man you should go to immediately.". Regardless, trusting the memory of a child not even in his teens is still a risky strategy.

[fgalkin]

I'm going to make a shocking suggestion that perhaps slowly dying in agonizing pain from being stabbed in the gut is not very conducive to rational thinking.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Surlethe]

Or there was simply a miscommunication: when Bran says, "They burned it all down," he's talking about the Iron Islanders and Luwin thinks he's talking about the Northmen. Or one of Bran, Rickon, Osha, or Hodor is smart enough to make the connection "castle burning + siege lifted" = "besiegers sacked the castle."

[streetad]

With regards to events at Winterfell, all we know from the show at this point is that a relief army of northmen led by Roose Bolton's bastard turned up, the Ironborn sold out Theon and tried to make a run for it, and somehow the place ended up getting torched. It's not really possible to explain what happened beyond this without getting into book spoilers. They have changed a few things around from the book anyway - it will be interesting to see exactly where they are going with this particular plot strand.

[JLTucker]

I'm going to make a shocking suggestion that perhaps slowly dying in agonizing pain from being stabbed in the gut is not very conducive to rational thinking.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Yet he thought to tell them to leave and for Osha to take care of them. Then he proceeded to rationally deduce that he would die slowly, and asked Osha to end it. He was thinking rationally.

I was lost on who burned everything as well.

[TheHammer]

I don't really understand your post. If you've read the books, then how does the scene at Winterfell make no sense? And how would Luwin know what happened, given he was stabbed in the gut right before?

Further, Luwin is going to convince the boys to go to the Wall by telling two very young kids the name of a man they've never even met and have probably never heard of, as opposed to their beloved half brother? Really?

I shouldn't need to read the book to understand the plot of the series. From a series perspective it makes little sense and is just a head scratcher for it's own sake so next season we can have this supposed big reveal. It's seems cheap. The scene with Luwin also makes little sense without book knowledge.

Luwin was stabbed in the gut, he wasn't knocked unconscious, he clearly had enough in him to drag himself to safety. And if he was unconscious, he would have assumed that the Ironborn fled after burning the city, and that it was now in the hands of Northern loyalists or they left. Why he would want them to run from that is not clear.

Luwin should at least give directions to Osha, it would be helpful for her to know who exactly to go to.

Luwin may have slipped in and out of conciousness after he was stabbed. No way to know what he did or didn't know. It seemed clear that he wasn't sure who could be trusted which is why he sent the boys north. And he did tell them all to see Jon Snow knowing he'd be able to help them from there.