I got this idea from an rpg forum
http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?613 ... of-Thrones)

what if Harry winds up in Westeros due to some time space anomaly after the end of Changes? what effect would it have on the plot, would he be able to survive the treacherous nature of Westeros, and how will others view him?

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Have never read the books or watched the show, but I can forsee one thing: Many a building is going to be burning down. Harry has that effect on architecture.

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I don't know much about Game of Thrones, but what sort of gear does Harry have? Is he just dumped naked into Westeros?

I gather he won't have Bob, and that'll hurt him. He relies on Bob's advice for a lot of his most advanced magic.

Where and when he ends up in Westeros also makes quite a big difference. Stick him somewhere in the north for example and he probably freezes to death in short order. Seeing his standard get up is jeans, t-shirt and a leather duster.

Another thing to consider is that this won't be good for Harry psychologically (and frankly, he isn't the most mentally stable chap anyway). He's just lost all his friends, all his allies, and his entire world, right on the heals of the long series of traumatic events that is [i]Changes]/i]. He's in a new world, where he'll probably have to struggle just to survive. It'll be tempting to violate the laws of magic, especially since he doesn't have to worry about the Wardens decapitating him. I say there's a fair chance Harry turns evil in this scenario.

I don't know if cold will be a big problem though. Does he get any resistance to cold given he's the Winter Knight at this point?

Properly unleashed, Harry would be a game changer of the same magnitude as the dragons were in Aegon's time. Unfortunately, Harry's scruples -- you know, the whole following the laws of Magic stuff -- would prevent him from being too terribly effective on the field of battle. People who won't kill on Westeros are limited in their usefulness, and the only way Harry could kill loads of people at once would be using his magic.

As for surviving the politics, I'm not so sure. I mean, that depends on lots of things, though the fact is that he's probably smarter than most of the characters he'd meet. His powers make him practically unassailable on a personal level, and he could be a useful ally to anyone. I'm sure he could teach the Maesters a thing or three.

North of the Wall, though, is where Harry's true worth would be demonstrated. He would make short work of the Others if properly motivated.

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I'm waiting as fast as I can.

Harry can kill people just fine without magic. If he brings his gun with him, he'll have a big advantage until he runs out of ammunition. He's also got some experience in hand to hand combat (he's used a sword, though he admits he's not a very good swordsman, and I think he mentioned Murphy giving him some martial arts lessons at one point). Also, just because he can't use his magic for killing doesn't mean it can't give him a hell of an advantage in combat. He can use illusions to sneak up on enemies (granted those aren't what he's best at), shields to block attacks, and so on. Warding a castle gate could also make sieges real unpleasant for the enemy.

My point is that he can't (for example) defeat an army single-handed in the same way a dragon could, simply because he won't kill with his magic and has no other means at his disposal to do so. Breach a castle wall? No problem. Create an illusion that draws the enemy away, allowing conventional forces to outflank them? Dresden's your man. Protect himself and his friends? Let me count the ways. Engulf ten thousand men in a fireball? No-can-do, see Law #1.

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I'm waiting as fast as I can.

Is their anyone in this setting who could actually stand up to Dresden one on one in a fight?

Maybe a dragon, if it got lucky. I can't think of anything on two legs who could go mano a mano with Harry.

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73% of all statistics are made up, including this one.

I'm waiting as fast as I can.

I wonder if Harry's read A Game of Thrones and will recognize where he is. He seems to be a bit of a science fiction and fantasy fan, so its quite plausible.

I know he and Tyrion would get on great and if he soul gazed Jaime he'd see that he isn't as vile and may prompt him to reveal the truth behind Aery's death. He's also aware that you have to sacrifice your principles (He killed the mother of his child for gods sake.) Finally, I was wondering how Eddard would react if Harry told him the full details of the Emotionally shattering climax that was changes. Even though the villains failed physically they succeeded spiritually in destroying him, since he's a shattered wreck. Harry can survive cold (he was able to endure cold water that was at least as cold as the arctic ocean during the portal jumping to chichen itza

Given that he's interacted with monsters who seem charming I'd bet he'd see through Joffrey and Cersei, and I don't think they'd like his smartassedness.

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"Lexx takes politically correct Star Trek-style sci-fi, murders its conventions, and then urinates on their graves" Darth Wong on LEXX

"Screw the Rules I Have Money" Yugioh the Abridged Series.

"But then again as a kid I wanted the planeeters to die horrible deaths when Captain Planet was on TV"-Sarevok

Dresden wins. Dresden Files magic is so overpowered it's ridiculous. So long as he avoids fighting too many people at a time he can basically just fuego people into doing whatever he wants.

Idunno... No matter how personally powerful you are, how many legions you can cow into doing your bidding, you're still just as vulnerable to someone opening a new mouth on your neck as you sleep.

And if you're ruling with an iron fist, a lot of the people around you will likely be more willing to look the other way about preperations for doing so.

I haven't read the Game of Thrones series yet (it hasn't come up on my rotation, - it is on there, but I've got sixteen novels out from the library at the moment and innumerable web serials and fanfictions I've fallen behind on, not to mention Uni work), but it's my impression there's a lot of politics, and Harry's not that good in the White Council's political arena, which is fairly tame by a lot of fantasy's standards.

Harry's a little... blunt for subtle back-room deals and such - usually when he's pulled something off by manipulation, it's been for a relatively short-term goal with people he can comfortably think of as enemies, even while working with them out of necessity EDIT: Or, of course, when it's infrequent contact with rather large breaks between, such as with Marcone - and even then, he's worked a lot better with him since he's known about the kid. I'm not sure he could handle being polite to someone's face for long periods when he thinks of them as scum. Short-term, yeah, he's pulled that off, but he usually finishes it with either an insult and escape, or insult and fuego.

He may disagree with some of the White Council's Laws of Magic, or rather how they go about enforcing them, but he does have his own moral code that he tends to stick to (how many times has he pissed off Murphy, or turned down and insulted Marcone?). I'm not sure he's got the level of politician in him that say, the Merlin or Ancient Mai do.

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'I don't believe in gunship diplomacy, but a couple of battleships in low orbit over my enemy's capital can't but help negotiations.'

He outmaneuvers White Court vampires and the Denarians, which is no mean feat. Harry might not be a natural politician, but he's not bad at it.

As for cutting his throat in his sleep... yeah, good luck with that when he's warded the fuck out of his sleeping quarters.

Yeah, good points. With the wards, I guess it's just that so many of the fantasy series I've been reading have had ineffective or nonexistant wards I've just gotten used to that - plus it's been awhile since I've read the Dresden Files, apart from reading the last two when they came out. But the Dresdenverse's wards are very effective (it's not Harry's fault that he keeps running up against things that can blow through them), and not all are threshold-based, even. So yeah, mea culpa.

As for Harry's political prowess with both the White Court and the Denarians, those are clearly evil and Harry's enemies (but he either has bigger fish to fry or, in the case of the Denarians, he needs a bigger boat to go hunting them), and he's had real trouble being polite to them for any extended period of time. I just don't think he can keep working with people he considers abhorrent for more than one or two missions with clearly defined objectives before he needs to blow something up.

In a nutshell, and I fully admit I'm probably wrong about this, I can see Harry working well with someone he considers evil for a little while, as long as he has something to look forward to (usually both in the objective and how he can treat the evil party after the objective is achieved), but he seems to have difficulty working with people he just dislikes for very long, especially if he has to pretend he doesn't mind them.

I'm not expressing myself very well, am I? Okay, how about this: Harry could work with the White Court or the Denarians to fulfil a goal he deemed worthy, so long as he got the chance to stick it to them afterwards. He would find it very difficult to work with members of the White Council he dislikes for any length of time, especially when he had to do some tit-for-tat and further one of their goals in return for them helping him save someone, which is what I get the feeling he may need to do in the Game of Thrones-verse. Am I making any sense?

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Yes, I know my username is an oxyMORON, thankyou for pointing that out, you're very clever.

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'I don't believe in gunship diplomacy, but a couple of battleships in low orbit over my enemy's capital can't but help negotiations.'

He CAN however, kill indirectly just fine, and given some prep time, can do some really terrifying battlefield modification. Ritual to pull groundwater into the soil to create your own marsh? Done. Need earthworks? Can do. Want to use a column of moving air to cast aside arrows? No problem. Create a massive circle-trap to (non-lethally) smash metal armed and armored men into the mud you have created, letting them drown in it, or simply breaking a charge letting HIS army misericord everyone's eye-sockets? Hell Yes.

He is a good swordsman. Just not as good as someone like Morgan who has had a century of practice, or things that have super-human strength and speed. And he CAN use earth magic to fuck up another swordsman's parries and stab him in the face. Remember, he cannot kill directly with magic. But he CAN kill indirectly using it.

Or of course, he could simply decide to violate the first law. It is not as if anyone would be there to decapitate him.

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Not by Westeros standards, where I submit he'd be bested by most pages. But if you let Harry get into a sword fight, you're doing it wrong in the first place.



He would be there. Harry is a true believer in the sense that he actually believes in the purity of magic. That puts strict limits on what he's able to do, directly as well as indirectly.

Having Harry flash his battlefield magic is all well and good, but why limit him in such a way? What Harry can offer them is so much more than just bringing down the thunder on your odd castle. His abilities are perfectly suited to alleviating a much bigger problem, namely communication and intelligence. Think of what something like Little Chicago would do for command and coordination. Now go bigger. Think about blood-based magic. Anyone know if there are bastards left of the Baratheon lineage and where they would be? You do now. That Stark kid? Why, she's over there. Let's look in on Danaerys and see if we can't pop over the ocean by way of the Never-never, assuming that place exists. And so on.

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"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe

After dealing with all the politics and double-meanings and backstabbing of the rest of the Westeros, going north of the Wall would be like a bloody vacation for Harry. 'Wait...you mean there are inhuman monsters raising the undead as warrior-slaves up there? Absolute, unquestionable, non-mortal evil that my own dedicated to the laws of magic doesn't protect? Sign my ass up!'

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It's also my understanding that using magic to directly kill humans corrupts the wizard to do so, so if he started frying armies he'd soon end up going evil. That's the function of the Blackstaff (the item) carried by the Blackstaff (the person); it lets him kill directly without going nuts (I understand that Butcher has so stated on his own forums); and it's why the First Law applies only to humans.

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Pretty much. It has a pretty serious affect on your sanity even if it doesn't directly make you evil, violating most of the Laws does. So if he does start killing folks with magic he would have a few months at best of rational operating before he ended up like on of the sorcerers he has had to kill. He would still be able to counter dragons, Others and the undead, the reanimated Mountain and so on by fuegoing them or gravity smooshing them or whatever.

How much of that comes from actual magical corruption, though, and how much from the sociological effects of uniform punishments for Law violations? If violating any of the Laws, once, means execution, once you've done that, why SHOULDN'T you keep doing it? Blew a security guard away with a fireball? Might as well open the Outer Gates, you're fucked either way if the Wardens catch up with you.

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That might be a factor but often individuals said to have suffered this brain warping effect of dark magic are novices who don't even know about the white council or the laws of magic.

Then again, there's a certain amount of evidence for the idea that the Merlin/White Council might be overstating this effect anyway. After all Harry and Molly have broken the laws of magic and gone to be at least OK wizards.

It's stated several times that using black magic can start to change you mentally. In essence it's about the corrupting influence of power and the fact that you need to believe in the magic you're performing. If you're messing with someone's mind or killing someone... deep down you believe in being able to do so. Remember Molly even broke the Laws again in Turn Coat, because she felt justified in trying to get into Luccio's mind.

So every time Harry kills a mortal, it's going to be easier for him to listen to that dark voice inside him. And easier. And easier. And then he'll be a warlock full-time.

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”A Radical is a man with both feet planted firmly in the air.” – Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism." - Sir Winston L. S. Churchill, Princips Britannia

American Conservatism is about the exercise of personal responsibility without state interference in the lives of the citizenry..... unless, of course, it involves using the bludgeon of state power to suppress things Conservatives do not like.

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TBH Harry Dresden's effectiveness is based on a few things: whether he runs into Melisandre, and whether Mel can do what she claims to be able to do.

Quick recap: Using king's blood Mel claimed to be able to kill off four pretender kings, within a year, all of them were dead, most of them from things not directly related to Melisandre herself. Where it gets tricky is that she also has precognition, so it's possible she saw the deaths and lied, but that wouldn't make sense she has used king's blood legitimately before. So if her powers are genuine she has the ability to kinda... shift fate. In at least one scenario every action taken was done by human beings with free will. They chose to kill the king in question, because the king chose to spurn them. There was no odd quirk of fate that made the king slip and crack his skull they all made their choices the way they normally would. That power is frankly terrifying, either her magic subtly shifts things so that people are put in a position where they act in a manner that leads to their death or it simply fucks with their free will. Harry has already shown himself to be vulnerable to the former, idk about the latter.

As for how this would effect the world, well, Ned wouldn't have been seized as easily and Joff would probably be in custody, but that wouldn't prevent a war between Stannis and Renly, though I could see Harry acting as a sort of nuclear deterrent, come anywhere near King's Landing and he will fuck you up.

He's pretty much the only noble character who could possibly survive in Westeros alone, but even he may eat it.