ATTN: anime people RE: End of Evangelion

[evilsoup]

So I've just finished watching neon genesis evangelion, and while it provided a satisfying conclusion to Shinji's character, it didn't do the same for anyone else and I'm not 100% sure what actually just happened. It also felt like it needed an extra episode to show some result from Shinji's epiphany.

I'm aware of this 'End of Evangelion' movie, but from what I've read about it it was mostly created because idiot fans of the show wanted flashy awesum fight scenes. Does it provide anything by the way of conclusions for the other characters? Or does it at least explain what was going on more widely during intrumentality/third impact? Watching the show, it feels as though I've missed some vital episode explaining everything..

But is end of evangelion worth watching? Or does it ruin the series ending (by, say, turning shinji into a badass or something)?

[Purple]

Some people will disagree with me but I think you don't actually need to watch anything. Now, this is not a point against the EOE it self. Its just an observation on your current state of mind. Right now, you feel a bit confused. You are not certain just what the F just happened. You feel like you need a conclusion, a proper and wholesome conclusion. A conclusion that will tie it all together and make everything right. If you ask me, that is exactly how one should feel after finishing NGE. But that's just my oppinion.

[evilsoup]

I'm not really that confused, I mean I'm pretty sure of what happened - third impact, brought about by Rei I think, everyone's souls got merged together and this led to Shinji's introspection and finally deciding that he has value as a person.

What I would be looking for in end of evangelion would be for Asuka to go through a similar process (she possibly sort of starts it in episode 25, but there's no epiphany for her), and maybe a little bit of explanation about the circumstances of the third impact. Oh and see a little of the results of shinji's breakthrough. I mean, for all the show went on about people being defined by other people, it just seems a little unsatisfactory to only have the revelation, without seeing how this affects his relationships with everyone else, and how he would live his life in light of it..

Does EoE provide any of this? Or does it (as I suspect from what I've read about it, though I've been trying to avoid spoilers which kind of limits the amount of reading..) ruin the characters?

[Nephtys]

Forget End of Evangelion

Just watch the new remakes of the series, Rebuild of Evangelion 1 and 2. They're called You are (not) Alone, and You may (not) advance. Far better movies. Better budget, pacing and... characterization! Egads! Also great music in the 2nd one.

Get this: Rei has a personality. Asuka isn't a one-note bitch. Shinji is a normal kid with... admirable qualities? Balls? What the hell right?

[evilsoup]

That sounds terrible, I liked evangelion because everyone was so fucked up. Shinji with admirable qualities/'balls' wouldn't be shinji, but rather a different character with the same name. Honestly I don't see the point of that kind of remake (well I don't see the point artistically; financially, I'm sure it makes sense).

[Nephtys]

That sounds terrible, I liked evangelion because everyone was so fucked up. Shinji with admirable qualities/'balls' wouldn't be shinji, but rather a different character with the same name. Honestly I don't see the point of that kind of remake (well I don't see the point artistically; financially, I'm sure it makes sense).

Because Shinji is a terrible, boring chracter? He doesn't do anything EXCEPT whine. There is no personality, save that he hates his dad and has abandonment issues.

The remake makes him try to actually salvage his life, before tossing it into the shitter. Makes him more like a character, than a caricature. Same with Rei. She actually develops personality traits beyond 'be that albino sexdoll thing that anime fans seem to obsess around while doing jack shit'.

[Stofsk]

Oh man. When I was a kid I made the mistake of watching Eva with the english dub.

whoever it was that played Shinji made me detest him and the show beyond redemption

[Stark]

i might go further and say simply 'watch something else'

if you reach the end of a work and find yourself still engaged and 'wanting more' (which arguably means 'the drama resonated with me') that's just a good thing, it doesn't need extended scaffolds of gantry bandaid addons to 'finish' it

if you liked evangelion and its over, surely the answer to your need for more drama is to watch something else with similar themes, not watch the next decade of evangelion fanservice applique plot

edit - chrimbo when people say the english dub basically destroyed the character they are not lying, to me it shows just how desperate kids were for anime at the time

[Stofsk]

yeah i remember the promos SBS ran for it and i was like 'HO SHIT THIS LOOKS CRAZY AWESOME'

as a young teen is wont to do

and to be fair i did stuck it out and watched the show

but shinji's dub felt like my ears were being raped

[Stark]

i couldn't stand it and gave up, and i've never been bored enough to go back

this evilsoup fella should just talk about the themes in the show that he thinks caught his mind and we can tell him other stuff to watch

[Ford Prefect]

Get this: Rei has a personality. Asuka isn't a one-note bitch. Shinji is a normal kid with... admirable qualities? Balls? What the hell right?

This was all true in the original series.

In any case, evilsoup should watch End. It's a really well storyboarded, directed and animated film, full of largely meaningless symbolism which is extremely well realised visually. It was really necessary to make - it more or less retreads the stuff about the characters which was covered in end of the series, but it's much more powerfully conveyed. End seems like it's closer to what Anno really wanted to be able to make (in a general sense) but couldn't because GAINAX had no money and had never made any money, had to deal with the whole television thing etc.

[Zablorg]

I recently bought and watched the Rebuild films and the second one especially was rad as hell.


While I get that there's like, a thematic point to it, it's still p. sad to see Shinji freak out and paralyse himself with fear for like the third time in a row

it's like c'mon shinji

i thought we worked through this bro

[Darth Tedious]

I'd recommend EoE. I did provide the actual end that the series lacked (at least in feel) while still leaving you saying 'WTF happened?'
There is lot of fan service thrown in, but all of it is given in a twisted way, likeSpoiler

we finally get to see Asuka go beserk in a fight, right before she gets killed

As for the Rebuild-reboot, I honestly didn't see the point. None of it felt different enough to be worth the effort. Honestly, I didn't even see a noteworthy change to Shinji's character.
Maybe once the third and fourth installment are finished...
But I found it just frustrating to watch, given that it slaps you with a 'to be continued...'

[Ford Prefect]

The point is Anno jumping ship from a sinking studio and making shitloads of money to support his new studio.

[evilsoup]

@Ford: The reason I liked NGE overall is mostly down to the characters, it was interesting to see all these people with their various severe psychological problems. In the final episodes, the main character Shinji seems to finally overcome his crippling anxiety and depression by realising that he has intrinsic value as a human being, during an enforced period of introspection. I found this uplifting, but what was missing was a similar thing for the other main characters, especially Asuka... I'm sure that EoE is all shiny and etc, but does it deliver psychological resolution for the main cast outside of Shinji?

Stark, I found it interesting for the portrayal of depression, nerdly social anxiety, and I generally found the characters interesting. Like there is a scene where misato (older female character, shinji's guardian) is breaking down in tears because of something that just happened, and shinji is in the next room; he comes to the open door and looks through, and you can see that he wants to go in and comfort her, but at the same time he doesn't know how to make himself do so. He's paralysed by his social anxiety, and his failure to help her just feeds into his general feelings of worthlessness. It also, in the final episodes, forces shinji to introspect and overcome some of these problems, which means it ultimately ends on an optimistic note (which I approve of).

So I guess recommend me shows/movies/whatever with interesting and flawed characters. I prefer stuff with... not necessarily a happy ending, but at least one where characters overcome flaws and there's a glimmer of hope somewhere.


EDIT: god-damn, Tedious, now I'm having to actively resist clicking that spoiler.

[Shroom Man 777]

now this is what i'm talking about

[Stark]

Do you think it's the way the characters struggle with their different flaws that resonates with you, or the way shinji's arc specifically turned out? I guess what I'm asking is did the character work work for you by itself or because you were imagining the payoff?

I'm curious because a lot of stuff deals with fundamentally flawed characters - shit, even cowboy bebop - but they don't all follow the same pattern dramatically of long build-up to a sudden epiphany and hen climax

Shroom I'm glad to see you because again I see that stuff we discussed where broken characters struggling appeals to some but not others

[VF5SS]

no watch Aquarion instead

there's a new one airing now

Mugen puuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunch~

[Ford Prefect]

Evangelion is fundamentally about the difficulty of interpersonal communication. I find Shinji really interesting because he's trying to grow up in a world full of people that can't/don't relate to him in a way which is helpful. This is true of Asuka as well - like her arc is full of people not really understanding how to handle her so she never really connects with anyone except in superficial ways (Hikari aside I guess, though Hikari is just accepting of the fact that Asuka has problems). The adult characters are the other way around - it's not that they need people to communicate with them, it's that they don't really know how to communicate. This is most obvious in Gendou, who just simply doesn't talk, and Misato, who puts on a variety of acts to fake her way through her relationships.

[evilsoup]

Hrm. Both, I think. I mean, I was unsatisfied that the other, equally (in one case more) flawed characters didn't get any kind of payoff. The setting did help a bit - what can I say, I like all the christian symbological trappings and fauxlosophy, even if most of it was meaningless window dressing for the psychological drama.

It wouldn't have to be a sudden epiphany, I'm down for people gradually changing over the course of a series. But I normally prefer characters to grow and change for the better. And I really dislike anything that just ends with AND THEN THEY ALL DIED as it renders everything the characters accomplished completely irrelevant.

Cowboy Bebop.. hm, I've never watched that, so I may be jumping to conclusions when I say that I don't consider 'is an asshole' or 'is a bit of a jerk' or 'too competitive/headstrong' to be the kind of flaws I'm talking about.

[Shroom Man 777]

Shroom I'm glad to see you because again I see that stuff we discussed where broken characters struggling appeals to some but not others

yes it is interesting to see how guise talking here can be captivated by relatively powerless guys like shinji cappa frank castle dads struggling in the face of obscenities like exploding sun mist monster jesus kaijus, and in seeing their various failures and triumphs and how these horribel situations are emotionally devastating to them and yet despite this carry and go goldman versus the sun, and how we are compelled by this

while other guys just go no bah these guys are stupid your movie is depressing uuurgh how could they do such things what a bunch of idiots smartest nerv on neon genesis intellectual crucifix of the sun haha he's stupid look at him get mangled south tokyo shinjis gets mist-jawsed it would be better if my personal-proxy character were uber competent and not stupid because nobody is stupid like that except when talking like real teenagers by the lake on naboo cringe

it's also interesting to see which of these kinds of guise we can have more worthwhile conversations with and which are dour bland oatmeal people

smartest nerv on neo tokyo

intellectual crucifix of the sun

[VF5SS]

reminds me of how people used to worship Macross Plus

re-watching it recently made me realize all the drama is literally the same as fucking Strawberry Panic :3

[Shroom Man 777]

cillian murphy would make an excellent live-action shinji-type of spineless weakling animu protagonist surrounded by batshit loco babes

oh cillian <3

[Stark]

The characters in CB are pretty horribly broken individuals (some in pretty sad ways), but they show itself is generally really upbeat and so I'm not sure it'd have the tone you're looking for overall. Its time for Ford to bend his amazing knowledge!

And Veef Macross Plus has never been about robits. :V MP's character stuff is (necessarily) a lot faster and thinner than a full-length show, but I think the two men get excellent payoffs.

[evilsoup]

Evangelion is fundamentally about the difficulty of interpersonal communication.

Yes.

This is true of Asuka as well - like her arc is full of people not really understanding how to handle her so she never really connects with anyone except in superficial ways (Hikari aside I guess, though Hikari is just accepting of the fact that Asuka has problems).

The bit where Asuka goes to live with Hikari is one of the best scenes of the series (and is vital to Asuka's arc), because you get to see her in the middle of her meltdown contrasted with a 'normal' friend. But I think you are wrong in your evaluation of Hikari. She doesn't understand Asuka, not really. It's like with the scene I talked about earlier, where Misato is crying and Shinji doesn't know how to help...

Well, when Asuka is staying at Hikari's, she just stays in and plays video games; she doesn't go to school, and she acts far more subdued than normal. Hikari knows that this is unusual, and that something is wrong, but like Shinji in that scene just doesn't know how to react: in his case it was a boy with deep-seated issues unable to react properly to a crying (relatively) normal friend; here we have a(n apparantly) normal girl not knowing how to respond to depressive behaviour. And the worst thing about it is that this is Asuka's last plea for help: by going to Hikari she's trying to foster a proper friendship, without any bullshit hypercompetitiveness, she's crying out for proper human contact. If only she were to actually cry, I'm sure Hikari would know to break out the tissues and chocolates, but that's not the place Asuka is in, mentally, and her friend can't read her.