AMC's "The Walking Dead" Season 2 Discussion (Spoilers)

[Stravo]

Thanks to the AMC Season 2 marathon last night I watched all of season 2 and then the finale. Before this I had only seen the Pilot and missed all of Season 1. I must say this show really grew on me as I watched the whole season unfold. Daryl quickly became my favorite character, and not because of the bad ass nature of his character but more about how conflicted he is and how he is dealing with an inferiority complex a mile long. I love characters with something to prove and he does a wonderful job of not being a stereotypical bad ass survival nut adding in the right mix of fragility and conflict to make him interesting, as opposed to say Shane who has dropped off the deep end and become a raving loon by the end of the season.

I love the story telling approach of Herschel's people looking at these zombies not as walking dead but as their family, neighbors and friends all suffering from illness. The whole series examines the various reactions people would have to an event like this, whether you choose to "opt out" or fight or deny the whole thing. People are changing in interesting ways, willing to entertain possibilities they never would have considered before. It's survival now in a way humanity has not had to prepare for since the prehistoric times. It's an interesting study of how people deal with the breakdown of order.

Great season overall and I have to now go on Netflix and catch up on Season 1.

[Guardsman Bass]

1. Darryl continues to be interesting, although not as much in earlier episodes that focused more heavily on him. I keep wondering how they're going to develop the Darryl-Carol interaction. Darryl's dedication to finding Sophia felt a bit more obsessive in this episode (even Carol was doubting that she would be found by then).

2. Shane is probably the second most fascinating character on the show, and he had some of the more intense character moments (such as his angry "this is reality" speech to Hershel). What makes him interesting is that some of what he says is right, such as his calling Rick on taking the fighters into Atlanta to assuage his guilty conscience about leaving Merle there locked up. All of it, though, is rooted in his selfishness and self-preservation, so that you can't really be sure if he's just covering his own ass, throwing a temper tantrum, or trying to tell the harsh truth. I like the observation made up thread, about how he froze up when it was someone they knew.

3. Rick shot his second child zombie. I still think he has a tendency to let his hope cloud his judgment sometimes (the CDC and Merle in Atlanta), but there's no question that he can take the hard shots when necessary.

4. I'll second the "holy shit!" response to the conclusion. I figured they were going to find Sophia either alive or undead, but to have her actually come out of the barn . . . Christ. Poor Carol and Darryl. The opening for the second half of the season is probably going to be depressing, particularly since it looks like Hershel is swinging from hope to despair.

5. Speaking of the ending, I hate that it ended on such a cliff-hanger . . . again. There's obviously going to be a shit-storm over undead Sophia in the barn, the shooting of the barn zombies, and everything else, but we're not going to be able to see anything but glimpses of it via previews until February next year!

6. Oh, and we still don't know what the CDC Doctor whispered to Rick in the Season One Finale.

Also what the christ is Dale's problem? I'm trying to work out what the hell is up with the Stupid Character is Stupid Moment with him trying to hide the guns.

I think he convinced himself that he had to do it to save the group from themselves (or particularly to "save" Andrea, which he's been trying to do all season). He's "meddling" again.

[FSTargetDrone]

6. Oh, and we still don't know what the CDC Doctor whispered to Rick in the Season One Finale.

"You're immune."



Really, what could have he said? It's clearly not about the pregnancy.

[Alyeska]

I thought this episode was pretty good. Daryl and Dale are two of my favorite characters. Daryl is a survivalist at heart, but he also has a heart and wants to do right for the group. He wants to give other people the chance he didn't have. Dale is just a nice old man. He really cares about everyone, especially Andrea. He was able to figure out Shane's real nature with simple observations.

Anyway, I think this episode played out pretty good. The characters stayed true for what we know of them. When confronted with the information about the Walkers they immediately evaluate the situation. Rick wants to live on the farm and so he is willing to try and play nice with Hershel. For right or wrong, Rick wants a safe haven for his family. That colors his thinking. His overriding goal is safety. Shane wants to take on the situation aggressively. So he wants to eliminate a known threat. Dale wants to foil Shane.

I wouldn't say anyone made gross mistakes. People made choices based on their experiences and personalities. I almost want to accuse Shane of being a Pyschopath. But that doesn't seem right. He does care for others. Anyway, he is becoming unhinged. He wants to aggressively take on a situation. He is getting reckless. But when faced with the ultimate problem. One of their own. He couldn't do it.

Rick is trying to protect the group. And with having found a safe haven has tried to play conservatively. Willing to work with Hershel. But as others pointed out, he can still make the hard call. He was willing to do what no one else could and killed Sophia the walker.

Daryl would most likely have killed Sophia. But he was there for Carol instead.

[Flagg]

6. Oh, and we still don't know what the CDC Doctor whispered to Rick in the Season One Finale.

"You're immune."



Really, what could have he said? It's clearly not about the pregnancy.

That everyone is already "infected" and anyone that dies comes back, bitten or not.

[Guardsman Bass]

That everyone is already "infected" and anyone that dies comes back, bitten or not.

I figured that that would be one of two possibilities (the other being that Lori was pregnant) at the beginning of the season. The one time we see Rick bring it up early in the Season Two Premiere, he seemed to be treating it as a mind-fuck (although I'll have to watch that part again to be sure). It would also easily serve as the basis for a Big Reveal in the second half of Season Two.

The show's been pretty coy about hinting at Romero Rules, though. We haven't seen anyone die and come back without being bitten yet. Perhaps they're saving that as part of the Big Reveal.

[Sinewmire]

Just watched the finale. That was tragic, damn you AMC for ending on that.

According to the "talking dead" show after, Otis found her in the woods with a bite in her neck before he was killed and was the one who put her in the barn. So it was before Carl was shot, but he may not have told Hershel,

I had wondered what Hershel was so afraid of in his discussion with Rick. The secret was out, why the panic, the ultimatum? I would have been relieved that we could at least be open about it. I think Hershel knew she was in there, and he was terrified of what they'd do if they found out.

Or it could just be that Hershel is a dick, of course, and I'm reading him wrong.

[FSTargetDrone]

I had wondered what Hershel was so afraid of in his discussion with Rick. The secret was out, why the panic, the ultimatum? I would have been relieved that we could at least be open about it. I think Hershel knew she was in there, and he was terrified of what they'd do if they found out.

Or it could just be that Hershel is a dick, of course, and I'm reading him wrong.

Whether or not Hershel knew that Sophia was in there (perhaps Otis never told him, to spare Hershel's feelings that he had caught a child--the rest seemed to be adults), what Herhsel was afraid of is exactly what happened. Shane went postal and decided to kill everyone in the barn. Not that he was necessarily afraid of Shane in particular, but that he could see that once anyone from Rick's group found out what was going on, there would be a slaughter. Remember, to Otis, those people in the barn are just that: people. Sick people, but people who might be treated. Including members of his family. Conversely, individuals like Shane (rightly) see them as nothing but an existential threat that could not be ignored. Not that I think Shane was right to act as he did--we know that Hershel and Rick had finally come to an agreement that the group could stay on the condition that the people in the barn were left alone. And Hershel and his group never even had a hope of defending the walkers in the barn, let alone themselves, from anyone else. Herhsel's group is himself, 3 women and a boy. None, if any, have any sort of firearms. I don't think they had anything but Otis' rifle (and who knows where it ended up).

Anyway, I hope that whatever the CDC told Rick, it wasn't that everyone comes back as a Walker. We've seen dead people on the highway that seemed to be dead without ever having been walkers, right? And that is far less interesting to me than the idea that some people might be immune.

[Revy]

I still maintain that what Jenner told Rick was that there may be someone out there working on a cure. Remember that he seemed to be making reports of his research for someone else’s benefit. It's been a while since I saw those episodes, but wasn't he wondering at one point if there was anyone alive even watching his reports? That suggests he was told to forward reports of his research somewhere, but that he doesn't have direct contact with whoever might be on the receiving end of them. Also, when the countdown is nearing an end and they're all about to go up in a big fireball, Jenner seemed to spend his last few minutes trying to make one final report (I think, though I might be remembering it wrong). If so ... why? If he's going to die in a few minutes then why bother? Unless he's doing it for someone else’s benefit.

So I reckon he told Rick that there might possibly be a person or group somewhere out there collecting CDC research on Walkers in the hopes of devising a cure, and Rick hasn't told anyone because even Jenner thinks it's an extreme long shot and he doesn't want to give them all false hope or raise their expectations, only for them to be let down the way they were with the CDC base itself.

This last episode was a good one. I actually thought that Sophia would be in the barn right after Hershel gave that suspicious look when they were talking about what they'd do with her if she was infected. I didn't think she'd be a Walker though, I just thought Hershel was hiding something he didn't want anyone to see and locked her in the barn when she stumbled across it to prevent her telling anyone.

[Skgoa]

The Sophia twist was predictable from a mile away but I like that Dale is being so intelligent lately. Lori, Shawn and Rick are written very very badly, though.

[Guardsman Bass]

Anyway, I hope that whatever the CDC told Rick, it wasn't that everyone comes back as a Walker. We've seen dead people on the highway that seemed to be dead without ever having been walkers, right? And that is far less interesting to me than the idea that some people might be immune.

I didn't think about that, but you're right. There were a ton of corpses on the highway that just sat in their cars without re-animating, and without any signs of head damage. The fact that they were in their cars when they died (often at the wheel) means that they died very quickly, without time to get out (my guess is that the military fire-bombed the highway to clear out a zombie horde, and ended up suffocating the poor survivors caught in the middle of it). That would discredit the "everybody re-animates" rule, unless they died in a way that didn't involve head damage, but somehow blunted their re-animation.

I still wouldn't be surprised if they went with it, and gave a tortured retcon for the highway corpses.

I still maintain that what Jenner told Rick was that there may be someone out there working on a cure. Remember that he seemed to be making reports of his research for someone else’s benefit. It's been a while since I saw those episodes, but wasn't he wondering at one point if there was anyone alive even watching his reports? That suggests he was told to forward reports of his research somewhere, but that he doesn't have direct contact with whoever might be on the receiving end of them. Also, when the countdown is nearing an end and they're all about to go up in a big fireball, Jenner seemed to spend his last few minutes trying to make one final report (I think, though I might be remembering it wrong). If so ... why? If he's going to die in a few minutes then why bother? Unless he's doing it for someone else’s benefit.

This reminds me of why I need to re-watch the first season again. All I remember about it from the last two episodes was that the national "cure" efforts seemed to have collapsed, with the French being one of the last hold-outs. I still think it's more likely that Jenner was crazy and simply going through the ritual at that point.

So I reckon he told Rick that there might possibly be a person or group somewhere out there collecting CDC research on Walkers in the hopes of devising a cure, and Rick hasn't told anyone because even Jenner thinks it's an extreme long shot and he doesn't want to give them all false hope or raise their expectations, only for them to be let down the way they were with the CDC base itself.

There's still Fort Detrick, which in real life is home to USAMRIID. They're a big part of the US counter-measures against biological warfare, and played a key role in dealing with the first Ebola outbreaks. It's up in Maryland, though, so most of Season 3 would be about traveling north through Zombie Country if they were still up-and-running (and Jenner's lost of communications probably means that they aren't).

That said, I think Rick's reaction in the first episode of Season 2, when he's thinking about what Dr. Jenner told him, is revealing. He looks more like a man contemplating a total mind-fuck, not a guy who has been suddenly give a long-shot chance at hope again.

[Meest]

I still wouldn't be surprised if they went with it, and gave a tortured retcon for the highway corpses.

Kirkman has been trying to cover inconsistencies on the Talking Dead and doing a bad job at it. "Brain trauma would keep you from becoming a zombie. Maybe they were in car wrecks. There's plenty of explanation for why those dead bodies weren't up and walking around." Again it seems like they are using writer's fiat for the most part, I'm sure they will end up saying some type of military gas or attack finished them, because they even got a car from that massive pile up and had it running with no body damage. AMC zombie rules goes into some of the contradictions and some of Kirkman's responses.

Jenner's whisper had to have been something not so hopeful or why would he still want to die? If he said they are all infected I think Rick would treat having a baby differently. The immune angle seems silly if he says we can adapt to it so go nuts and have babies, or if any of them are immune (would think Jenner would try to use that to help research), again Rick's reactions to the pregnancy doesn't fit.

[Skgoa]

Man, that post is another datum proving these two things:
1) Creative people should not publish the internal rules of their worlds in a vain attempt to show a depth that really doesn't matter to the work itself and will get things complicated down the line.
2) People tend to overstate their case when they think they are being clever. Other than the "but you said the rules would be different from what they ended up to be", that post is a giant false dichotomy fallacy.

[Guardsman Bass]

1) Creative people should not publish the internal rules of their worlds in a vain attempt to show a depth that really doesn't matter to the work itself and will get things complicated down the line.

Although it's interesting to know the official "internal rules" of the setting, I agree that they shouldn't have published them. They should have kept the list of rules to themselves, and then let the viewers piece them together throughout the course of the show. It's not like it would be difficult for most of them.

Some of the rules surprise me, though. Particularly #3, which says that they're not dangerous if they've already eaten recently. I figured the whole "must eat/bite" was just a reflex from when they were alive, except that it's "on" all the time (meaning that they're always hungry and eager to take a bit out of something alive).

2) People tend to overstate their case when they think they are being clever. Other than the "but you said the rules would be different from what they ended up to be", that post is a giant false dichotomy fallacy.

Most of the examples are definitely explainable within the rules.

1. Kirkman contradicts himself on the car scene when he doesn't have to. It would have been much simpler to say that the zombies didn't smell the people staying quiet under the cars because they already had "something" they were chasing after (hence why the swarm was on the move), and because the stench from all the rotting car corpses covered up their smell. That would fit with the scene where T-Dog survived by hiding underneath a corpse that Darryl shoved on him.

2. The "Andrea and Tree Zombie" is more difficult, but you could argue that it was just a matter of carelessness and bad timing on the part of Rick's Group. They just happened to walk past a zombie hanging around that tree (possibly even laying against it, like how the zombie inside the tank in the Series Premiere was just sitting there until Rick sat down next to him).

3. Andrea probably just got lucky. Accidentally getting zombie blood on your face likely wouldn't result in infection most time until you either swallowed it or it came in contact with an open wound.

4. I need to re-watch Season One again, but I'm pretty sure the zombies could move at an okay pace then once they actually found prey.

5. The "corpses in cars" doesn't make sense. They have to get hit really hard (or in the right place) to die from head trauma, and it's stretch to think that all those people conveniently died from head trauma (especially since the highway looks more like they were stuck in a traffic jam when they suddenly died en masse).

#5 still looked cool on-screen, but I remember it bothering me even back when I first watched the episode.

[FSTargetDrone]

5. The "corpses in cars" doesn't make sense. They have to get hit really hard (or in the right place) to die from head trauma, and it's stretch to think that all those people conveniently died from head trauma (especially since the highway looks more like they were stuck in a traffic jam when they suddenly died en masse).

And I don't think it was a firebombing. Gas, maybe. There was some scorching on the ground around at least one vehicle (perhaps it was malfunctioning and overheated, then caught fire while idling in the stuck traffic), but it doesn't look like too much else burned. A few other cars were overturned, but it also didn't look like a huge pile-up had occurred there. My guess is that some people got desperate and tried to plow through, without success. The body Carl found with the knives appeared intact and I didn't notice any head wounds. I'll have to take a look at that one (and the bodies Darryl used as cover) more closely later on.

[FSTargetDrone]

According to the "talking dead" show after, Otis found her in the woods with a bite in her neck before he was killed and was the one who put her in the barn. So it was before Carl was shot, but he may not have told Hershel, so the secret died with him because of Shane's weird bloodthirst.

Upon another viewing of the last episode, I just noticed a bandage he may have applied. Move to 2:15 and just as Sophia comes out of the barn and shields her eyes from the sun but before she raises her head, look closely between her left shoulder and neck. There appears to be a large, (darkly) blood-stained bandage (?) there. I don't think it's torn flesh as it appears to be rectangular in shape.



It's visible in all the scenes that show her face. If it is a bandage, Otis must have put it there. He saw her bleeding and then bandaged her before she succumbed and turned. It may not be important, but it may be a clue that she was indeed found alive before turning into a Walker.

Or, Hershel bandaged her.

Also, I found it amusing that a shambling, undead child is stepping so gingerly over and around dead bodies.