Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Tiriol
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Tiriol »

The Romulan Republic wrote:Merope might have done something rather horrible, but given the circumstances she grew up in and the way she died, I do feel sorry for her. Nobody deserves that. And if she hadn't been treated like subhuman shit her whole life, she might have turned out better.

Also, I hate the idea that being conceived by a love potion made Voldemort evil. Not only does it directly contradict the theme of people's choices being important by suggesting that Voldemort was made evil by his mother's actions, but it also implies that children conceived through rape are inherently bad people, which is a horrible message.
I always saw this as a tragedy which Tom Riddle could not affect: it was the magic of love potion that made his father "love" his mother, but once the potion's strength ran out and Merope wanted to experience real love, Tom Riddle Sr. abandoned his "wife" and (unborn? I don't remember) child. To grow up without a father is not nice, but Merope couldn't handle it either and apparently her pregnancy was a hard one, since she died so soon. So young Tom Riddle was bereft of motherly and fatherly love due to no fault of his own, very similar to Harry Potter's eventual fate. But whereas Harry managed to remain relatively positive and nice young boy, Tom apparently became embittered and once he discovered his unusual talents, revelled in the power they offered to him. It was all about the choice to the end. Even with his dubious start Tom could have become something better (not necessarily greater, but much, much better). Instead he indulged his impulses and base desires. Whereas Harry could have become something much, much worse (no positive parent figure for the first decade of his life? Upon discovery of his talents becoming an immediate celebrity and being fawned by even the highest represantive of the wizarding government? He could have become a sociopath, quite frankly) and yet did not give in, save for the usual teenage angst and certain amount of selfishness. They had many similarities in the upbringing and even in personality, but they chose very differently.

Tragedy shaped both of their lives, tragedy which neither could avert. But they had a choice, both of them. Tom chose to become Voldemort; Harry chose to be himself and to live as well as he could. Love potion was only an instrument in Voldemort's tragedy as was the death spell on Harry's.

However, love potion is ethically unsound. Either Rowling didn't think this one out (a strong possibility) or she wanted to say something about the wizarding world with it. In-universe, I'd say that the wizards are so used to the presence of various love potions that they really don't care anymore besides some obvious stupid jokes. And the Weasley Brothers aren't necessarily that responsible in any case - it was their love potion that made Ron a little bit.. strange, wasn't it?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Love potions are absolutely hideous, there's no doubt about that. Though wasn't their a line in the book about them being banned in Hogwarts?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Stravo »

On the Voldemort love potion conception, I don't believe that the circumstances around his conception made him evil, I thought that he could not feel love because he was conceived via love potion not that he was born evil.

However that may be splitting hairs as I think one of the themes regarding Voldemort and Harry is that Harry could feel love thus he was able to stay on the good path while Voldemort, unable to feel this emotion, found it easier to use and abuse people. The same way he could not conceive of what kind of power love holds as we see with Lilly's sacrifice for Harry and Harry's sacrifice to protect Hogwart's. It is a giant blind spot that in the end is his undoing.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by open_sketchbook »

Love potions are totally fucked up, but I think I know why they aren't banned. The ministry, despite it's size and the bureaucracy, is actually pretty hands-off regarding the people of wizarding Britain. Their primary concerns are secrecy, and presenting a (ideally) non-partial authority figure/forum of negotiation between powerful entities and families. The substances they regulate aren't controlled for any reasons of social health or ethics, but because they are powerful artifacts that could tip the balance of power, the creation or use of which implies murder or otherwise threatens to escalate to a fight between folks who can wreck shit pretty bad, or because they cause headaches for enforcing secrecy ("Regulating the current bunch of dragons is hard enough. Don't bring in more dragon eggs, you guys!" and "Well, they're going to have the World Cup no matter what, so we best regulate it and set it up safely".)

Notice how there is no ministry police force, just a dedicated force of Dark Wizard hunters. Their prison is a magic-draining hellhole seemingly reserved for basically for killers and similarly awful folks, not a place for lesser crooks. Also note how Mundungous Fletcher is a career criminal and everyone knows it, but we've never heard of him serving time or having run-ins with the law. It might be that the Ministry only operates on the condition that they let the society manage their own problems, with the understanding that they are there as a neutral force. If somebody tries to steal from a store and the shopkeeper catches him and hits him with a narly curse, well, problem solved, no need for intervention. The shopkeeper does have the option of going to the Ministry about it, but it's probably frowned on socially; what's the matter, can't manage your own affairs? They probably only get involved to settle something that threatens to escalate; imprisoning a murderer before his family starts planning revenge killings and you get a war between noble families, for example. This is consistent with the tone of the world of Harry Potter.

So, I would imagine that the society generally agrees that the legality of love potions are not for the Ministry to decide; even if most find it distasteful (and there is no indication that they think so, as it's treated more like a prank than anything else) they might not be willing to allow it to be used as a precedent, and on top of that it's doubtful that it could be easily regulated as everyone knows at least a little potion-making.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Actually, PoA mentions "Magical Law-Enforcement Squad" or somesuch. I think they appear in some of the other books but PoA is a certainty. I think the main problem is we see only a small section of wizarding society and what we do see is limited to Hogwarts and a few other places.

But you are right, their main focus is secrecy.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by open_sketchbook »

As far as I can remember, Magical Law Enforcement is just the department Aurors work for. There is mention of a less-awesome "Magical Law Enforcement Patrol" force (Bob Ogden was the head of the department) but they can't be all that if their boss personally goes about arresting folks. They probably do most of the enforcement for offices like Misuse of Muggle Artefacts and Improper Use of Magics, which mostly involves chasing down punk kids. Minor crimes seem to be enforced mostly with fines anyway, so they can probably get away with mailing notices to most criminals.

Also, it might not follow that most love potions create, well, love, or even lust. I'm willing to bet all but the most powerful create affection, maybe even fostering something resembling courtly love, and that's the stuff that gets sold in stores. It'd probably explain why whenever we see love potions being talked about, it's teenage girls talking about them; a teenage girl slipping a guy a love potion and basically having him follow her around like a lovesick puppy, waiting on her hand and foot and writing sappy poetry, kind of sounds exactly like the sort of thing that would be dismissed as a harmless prank in the Harry Potter universe. When Ron was under the effects of it, he was mostly kind of dopey and infatuated.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ahriman238 »

We see one example of a very powerful and banned love potion, Amortentia. This is explicitly said to not create true love, but rather a lifelong obsession. Presumably other potions are far less potent.

For that matter there is a scene in PoA where Molly Weasley is regaling Ginny and Hermione with tales of her use of such poitions back in Hogwarts, and all three girls are giggling. Given how strongly principled Hermione is, I doubt she'd be giggling over the idea of a love slave or date rape drug. If they make someone experience something like a crush for an hour or two, yeah, I'd consider that a largely harmless prank.

I once sat down, some point after book 6 and wrote down what the various potions are and do, and which ones are mentioned in passing as the subject of a lecture. Kind of suprising how much we don't fear about the school subjects. Anyhow, I figured there are 5 broad categories to HP potions. First, poisons and their antidotes, which the students of Hogwarts study as early as first year. Who teaches 11-year olds how to make possibly deadly posions? Severus Snape. Might be a remnant of the whole medieval atmosphere. Second, medicinal potions, which are largely responsible for the miraculous healing powers of HP wizards. Third, potions with largely harmless effects, like Babbling Brew, a number of which I think there are spells that can do. Spells in a bottle, perhaps? Fourth, human enhancement, not a lot said about, but both memory-enhancing and wit-sharpening potions are mentioned, and are banned in Hogwarts Exams. Fifth and finally, we have potions that have powerful useful effects that cannot be acheived through other means, Polyjuice, Felix Felicis, Veritaserum etc. These seem to only be taught in NEWT potions, so are probably too difficult, or have too rare and expensive ingredients, to be made by the casual brewer.

All of these pale, however, to the knowledge that in the HP-verse, a soul is objectively detectable and measurable, and can even be manipulated to an extent. Try wrestling with the cultural and philosophical implications of that.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Alkaloid »

Also, it might not follow that most love potions create, well, love, or even lust. I'm willing to bet all but the most powerful create affection, maybe even fostering something resembling courtly love, and that's the stuff that gets sold in stores. It'd probably explain why whenever we see love potions being talked about, it's teenage girls talking about them; a teenage girl slipping a guy a love potion and basically having him follow her around like a lovesick puppy, waiting on her hand and foot and writing sappy poetry, kind of sounds exactly like the sort of thing that would be dismissed as a harmless prank in the Harry Potter universe. When Ron was under the effects of it, he was mostly kind of dopey and infatuated.
Thats probably pretty accurate, thinking about it. The one Ron took was well past its used by date, and Slughorn said the have a tendency to get stronger over time and perhaps go a bit funny as well.
Notice how there is no ministry police force, just a dedicated force of Dark Wizard hunters. Their prison is a magic-draining hellhole seemingly reserved for basically for killers and similarly awful folks, not a place for lesser crooks. Also note how Mundungous Fletcher is a career criminal and everyone knows it, but we've never heard of him serving time or having run-ins with the law. It might be that the Ministry only operates on the condition that they let the society manage their own problems, with the understanding that they are there as a neutral force. If somebody tries to steal from a store and the shopkeeper catches him and hits him with a narly curse, well, problem solved, no need for intervention. The shopkeeper does have the option of going to the Ministry about it, but it's probably frowned on socially; what's the matter, can't manage your own affairs? They probably only get involved to settle something that threatens to escalate; imprisoning a murderer before his family starts planning revenge killings and you get a war between noble families, for example. This is consistent with the tone of the world of Harry Potter.
I just realised that in HBP, they had to create a whole new department for Arthur Weasley to run in order to deal with what was essentially fraud.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ahriman238 »

Lord Falcon wrote:Love Potions, no matter what shape or form, are similar in function to the Imperius Curse; they remove a person's free will. Fred and George were routinely selling them to Hogwarts students by smuggling them in, and a sixth year stalker planned to do this to Harry. Suppose after he had fallen under her spell, she made him her "boyfriend," a term I use very loosely in this regard. Suppose they went farther than that and actually had sex. That would constitute date rape. What if she had become impregnated, hm? A child born in a union held together by a Love Potion is potentially a Lord Voldemort in the making. What would happen in this series if Harry had drank the Love Potion? Would they all laugh and shrug their shoulders in casual dismissal once they found out? Little wonder Tom Riddle left Merope, then. And we're supposed to feel sorry for her. :roll:
I think the whole damn thing was tragic, and fell sorry for everyone involved. The man who was enchanted into a relationship, left, and the was murdered years later by the son he'd probably spent over a decade trying to forget. The young woman who felt she needed the potion, and then was abandonded when she discontinued it, and died alone knowing the only hting she'd ever had resembling love had been a lie. Even Riddle, though I firmly believe charcter is made by your decisions, started with a serious disadvantage in understanding love and forming happy healthy relationships and never made it up.
I just realised that in HBP, they had to create a whole new department for Arthur Weasley to run in order to deal with what was essentially fraud.
They set aside a task force of twenty people to deal with the explosion of unreliable amulets and talismans, which in a nice touch mirrored the 'roaring underground trade' of such items in CoS. That's not really all that remarkable in temrs of police or goverm=nment work.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Glimmervoid »

Alkaloid, this is not correct or, at least, a vastly over simplification.

First of all, Arthur was not given a Department, but moved from being the head of one Office to a slightly bigger one. The Ministry is structured something like this…

First you have the Ministry as a whole, headed by the Minister for Magic.

The Ministry is then split into seven Departments (Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, International Magical Cooperation, Magical Accidents and Catastrophes, Magical Games and Sports, Magical Law Enforcement, Magical Transportation, and Mysteries) which are each headed by a Department Head.

The Departments are then split into a number of Offices (e.g. the Auror Office, which is part of the Department of Magical Law Enforcement) and headed by a person, generally called Head of the X Office.

The Offices then have people working for them. Some, like the Auror Office, are large with many people. Others, like the Misuse of Muggle Artefacts Office, are small, possibly just have two people.

Of course, like the real British government, this structure is not perfect across the whole of the ministry. The Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, for example, is split into three Divisions, which appear to then be split into Offices. There are also a number of Boards, Squads, Headquarters and Committees but the basic structure Ministry->Department->Office appears to be fairy solid, no matter what the pieces are called.

Your claim that magical law enforcement consists only of the Aurors is likewise flawed. The Department for Magical Law Enforcement functions as a combined prosecutorial and police service but does so as a whole. You can't cut it apart when considering law enforcement as a whole. Within the Department, different Offices then take point on different kinds of enforcement (it's unknown if you can work for a department as a whole rather than a Office outside being its Head). The Aurors are Dark Wizard Hunters, the Hit Wizards do something (they arrested Sirius Black the first time and have a lower entry standard than the Aurors). There is the Magical Law Enforcement Patrol and possibly also a Magical Law Enforcement Squad. There’s the Improper Use of Magic Office. Misuse of Muggle Artefacts Office. And an Office for the Detection and Confiscation of Counterfeit Defensive Spells and Protective Objects. There’s even more if we move beyond just book canon, which I am loathed to do. And those are just the ones we hear about. There could well be many more.
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