Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by ray245 »

Crazedwraith wrote:
Ok, that's more like what I would considered accurate.

The thing about comparing him to the mauraders or the twin is it that they're 'just better' or is that they just have a different skill set. Fred & George after all still needed Harry to train them in defense.
Was there any mention that they did not know how to defend themselves? For all we know, they joined the class because they wanted to have more practice.

Except in many areas he's not mediocre. He's an excellent flyer, excellent at DADA, and has some pretty impressive willpower and balls for someone his age. That is not mediocrity.
What's so impressive about his flying skills? He is pretty decent at school level, but there is a number of fliers who can be said to be better than him. Take for example, Victor Krum and all the players playing at the final of the world cup.




I don't understand why some of you here are getting so emotional over someone calling Harry relatively weak as a protagonist. Harry was never written as a character who would develop a high level of skills to defeat Voldermort head-on ( which is why he would need to rely on a deus ex machina to defeat him) to begin with. The most appealing aspect of Harry Potter is the fact that he is so normal as a protagonist, which makes him easier for a lot of people to connect with.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ahriman238 »

Sinewmire wrote:
How is it that Voldemort, considerably younger than Dumbledore can wield power the way he does?
Because Voldemort is prepared to do anything short of killing himself for power, unlike Dumbledore who learned that sometimes the fast, easy way is not always the best, and it's better to be weaker and still have your soul, than nigh all-powerful and a monster, like Voldemort.

Voldemort's viewpoint is "There is no such thing as good or evil. There is only power, and those too weak to see it."

Whereas Dumbledore opines "your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness."

Much like Sauron, Voldemort's only real weakness is that he is evil.
His real weakness is that he's so terrified of death, so hard-on for power, and so removed from anything like a healthy human relationship that he really doesn't understand people anymore. The concept of self-sacrifice is so alien to him that no matter how many times he sees it he won't get the idea that some people, his own followers among them, will put someone elses interests above their own.
What's so impressive about his flying skills? He is pretty decent at school level, but there is a number of fliers who can be said to be better than him. Take for example, Victor Krum and all the players playing at the final of the world cup.
After his first practice he was being favorably compared to a man "who could've played for England." That was probably hyberbole, and true, he doesn't quite seem able to play on the level of national teams yet. On the other hand, he's in freaking high school, and he seems to outclass his peers there by a considerable margin.
I don't understand why some of you here are getting so emotional over someone calling Harry relatively weak as a protagonist. Harry was never written as a character who would develop a high level of skills to defeat Voldermort head-on ( which is why he would need to rely on a deus ex machina to defeat him) to begin with. The most appealing aspect of Harry Potter is the fact that he is so normal as a protagonist, which makes him easier for a lot of people to connect with
Yes, the 'everyman' theory of writing. You know, once Skysaber ran through the first book substituting Harry with a Mr. Potato Head (with the magical ability to burn Quirrelmort with its touch) just to illustrate what a passive actor he is in that book. Also, because it's sort of funny.

Kind of scary, the only major points of divergence is Mr. Potato Head not running to save Hermione on Halloween, and not having invisible nightly escapades.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by FaxModem1 »

Wow, that's hilarious. I wish I had seen the other six books like this.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Ahriman238 wrote:After his first practice he was being favorably compared to a man "who could've played for England."
<semi troll mode>That's actually some brilliant piece of writing there by JK Rowling. As any keen observer of the England sports media sphere knows, any time an English man displays a half decent ability in the sporting sphere they are touted as the next big thing. Like Joe 'as good as Messi' Cole, and Wayne 'The White Pele' Rooney ... </semi troll mode>
Ahriman238 wrote:Yes, the 'everyman' theory of writing. You know, once Skysaber ran through the first book substituting Harry with a Mr. Potato Head (with the magical ability to burn Quirrelmort with its touch) just to illustrate what a passive actor he is in that book. Also, because it's sort of funny.

Kind of scary, the only major points of divergence is Mr. Potato Head not running to save Hermione on Halloween, and not having invisible nightly escapades.
OMG that is BRILLIANT! I spat my drink out at this point;
Train stops, elves carry the luggage, Ron carries Mr Potato Head out to meet Hagrid who delivers them all, via boat, to Hogwarts castle. They stand in a little room, ghosts enter, girls scream, and McGonagall arrives to take them in for their Sorting. The hat sings, then gets put on the toy's head and finds no loyalty, no ambition, no thirst for knowledge or courage, so it does what it did with Pettigrew and proclaims Gryffindor. No change there.
That's, well done! :lol:
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ahriman238 »

<semi troll mode>That's actually some brilliant piece of writing there by JK Rowling. As any keen observer of the England sports media sphere knows, any time an English man displays a half decent ability in the sporting sphere they are touted as the next big thing. Like Joe 'as good as Messi' Cole, and Wayne 'The White Pele' Rooney ... </semi troll mode>
The sad thing is, that's sort of true. But Harry never loses a single game, except once because of outside interference. And he wins at least three more games where is an outside force hindering him and/or the other side is outright cheating. I can therefore accept the books at their word when they say Harry is better than most at flying.

It's not my story, you guys just reminded me of it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Alphawolf55 »

Crown wrote:
Elheru Aran wrote:There's sort of a placebo effect going on. If you're repeatedly told that you have great power, that you have great abilities like Harry, you're going to buy into that and come out with some chops. On the other hand, if you're clumsy and kind of not the brightest like Neville, the teachers keep coming down on you and you don't think you can do much.

Knowing that you can do x, and that you can apply your power towards that, and being determined to pull it off, is going to make x happen with great potency.

This is probably why a lot of Squibs fail out of Hogwarts (if they're allowed to go at all)-- they keep getting told they can't do magic, and start believing it.
I understand that your point is Harry being praised/encouraged and Neville being mocked/disparaged = Harry being better than Neville, but it kinda falls flat in the wider sense. Harry was a mental midget and magical retard when you compare him to his father and his group of friends, what they did with magic at his age.

And then you move him up to the Dumbledore/Voldemort 'circle/level' for comparison, he is practically a squib.

Confidence does breed more success, true, but some people are just better.
Don't you think it's a little bit unfair to compare Harry who didn't even know magic existed until he was 11, spent the summers in a completely non-magical environment and whose development we only saw till he was 16 be compared to the Maruders and the Wesley twins, two groups of people filled with individuals who knew about magic from day 1, lived in environments completely centered around magic and had members who families wizard legacy goes back centuries?

I mean yes he doesn't compare to Dumbledore, Voldemort or Snape but those first two characters are considered the greatest in their world and there's strong evidence to consider Snape the fourth most powerful wizard in the series.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Crown »

Alphawolf55 wrote:Don't you think it's a little bit unfair to compare Harry ...
No.
Alphawolf55 wrote: ... who didn't even know magic existed until he was 11, spent the summers in a completely non-magical environment and whose development we only saw till he was 16 be compared to the Maruders and the Wesley twins, two groups of people filled with individuals who knew about magic from day 1, lived in environments completely centered around magic and had members who families wizard legacy goes back centuries?
You're right of course, it's not as if the smartest person in his year is a girl born to 2 muggle parents who also lives on the outside of the magical community. And nor is it the case that his mother - while being born to 2 muggles - was ever remarked upon as being a brilliant witch who had an amazing aptitude with Charms, an aptitude that won her special recognition from her teachers and professors that they would remark upon it years and years down the line is it? How unfair of me.
Alphawolf55 wrote:I mean yes he doesn't compare to Dumbledore, Voldemort or Snape but those first two characters are considered the greatest in their world and there's strong evidence to consider Snape the fourth most powerful wizard in the series.
:wtf:

Who is the 3rd?
ray245 wrote:I don't understand why some of you here are getting so emotional over someone calling Harry relatively weak as a protagonist. Harry was never written as a character who would develop a high level of skills to defeat Voldermort head-on ( which is why he would need to rely on a deus ex machina to defeat him) to begin with. The most appealing aspect of Harry Potter is the fact that he is so normal as a protagonist, which makes him easier for a lot of people to connect with.
This actually has me stunned mate. I honestly didn't think people could miss something that obvious despite JK Rowling spelling it out, time and time and time and again.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Crazedwraith »

*tries not to get involved again* Bugger.
I don't understand why some of you here are getting so emotional over someone calling Harry relatively weak as a protagonist. Harry was never written as a character who would develop a high level of skills to defeat Voldermort head-on ( which is why he would need to rely on a deus ex machina to defeat him) to begin with. The most appealing aspect of Harry Potter is the fact that he is so normal as a protagonist, which makes him easier for a lot of people to connect with.
Oh dear goodness. Please point out when anyone claimed that at all. I've never claimed Harry was in Voldemort's league. Just that he wasn't 'mediocre'.

Alas, my argument pretty much boils down to semantics. I don't think someone with apparently above average grasp of magic; both theory and practical use there of judging by his OWLs can be described as 'mediocre' even if he fails to match up to the very greatest wizards of his age.

But alas I'm 'strawmanning' Crown again as he's only taking Harry and everyone who's better than him into account.


I'm curious Crown. Do you consider Hermione to be a 'good wizard' (or witch)? Going by your definition, I can't think of many occasions when she showed a grasp of the theory behind magic. She showed an incredibly wide learning and use of many spells but she only used them as they were intended. Thus no understand of theory, thus also mediocre right?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Crazedwraith wrote:But alas I'm 'strawmanning' Crown again as he's only taking Harry and everyone who's better than him into account.
Here's a question; why wouldn't I compare the protagonist of a story to his antagonist?
Crazedwraith wrote:I'm curious Crown. Do you consider Hermione to be a 'good wizard' (or witch)? Going by your definition, I can't think of many occasions when she showed a grasp of the theory behind magic. She showed an incredibly wide learning and use of many spells but she only used them as they were intended. Thus no understand of theory, thus also mediocre right?
Hermione's rigid - err lets be polite and call it adherence - to established authority could actually be holding her back. However to answer your question; she has at least shown the ability to take one example of magic and transfer it to her purposes, the Death Eater's dark mark and the gold coins to notify the members of DA when to meet, even if she hasn't scaled the lofty heights of puking pastilles or fever fudge.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Actually, she used a Protean Charm, which is apparently NEWT-standard spellwork, so had she done 7th year she would have known about it anyway.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Crazedwraith »

Crown wrote:
Crazedwraith wrote:But alas I'm 'strawmanning' Crown again as he's only taking Harry and everyone who's better than him into account.
Here's a question; why wouldn't I compare the protagonist of a story to his antagonist?
Again: Not as good as Voldemort =/= a mediocre wizard. The repeated statements that 'Harry is mediocre' strike me as absolute statements rather than comparisons to specific individual but you have said that's not what you mean, I am, as I said, I'm merely arguing semantics, which is even more pointless than actual argument.

Going by your own definitions, you are quite right.
Crazedwraith wrote: Hermione's rigid - err lets be polite and call it adherence - to established authority could actually be holding her back. However to answer your question; she has at least shown the ability to take one example of magic and transfer it to her purposes, the Death Eater's dark mark and the gold coins to notify the members of DA when to meet, even if she hasn't scaled the lofty heights of puking pastilles or fever fudge.
Yeah, that is the best example I could think of for her. Of course it doesn't have to imply great understand. See magic. Look up spell. We don't know how much adaption the coins it took. Hermione doesn't mention she made any modifications to the protean charm, she used.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ford Prefect »

Crown wrote:Here's a question; why wouldn't I compare the protagonist of a story to his antagonist?
Because it's usually normal for the antagonist to represent a stronger force than the protagonist. Drama is typically served by having the hero be the underdog.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Crown wrote:
ray245 wrote:I don't understand why some of you here are getting so emotional over someone calling Harry relatively weak as a protagonist. Harry was never written as a character who would develop a high level of skills to defeat Voldermort head-on ( which is why he would need to rely on a deus ex machina to defeat him) to begin with. The most appealing aspect of Harry Potter is the fact that he is so normal as a protagonist, which makes him easier for a lot of people to connect with.
This actually has me stunned mate. I honestly didn't think people could miss something that obvious despite JK Rowling spelling it out, time and time and time and again.
What did I miss out on?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Alphawolf55 »

You're right of course, it's not as if the smartest person in his year is a girl born to 2 muggle parents who also lives on the outside of the magical community. And nor is it the case that his mother - while being born to 2 muggles - was ever remarked upon as being a brilliant witch who had an amazing aptitude with Charms, an aptitude that won her special recognition from her teachers and professors that they would remark upon it years and years down the line is it? How unfair of me.
Hermione I'll give you but she's the most brilliant witch in her year while having family who was receptive of her magical abilities. Lily, we've seen no actual examples of how she was so great at charms, so I think she's a bad example to use, since we can't apply any specific examples of her skills that we actually see or notice, in the same way that we see Hermione, the Maruders and the Twin's skills.

I mean is your argument "Harry Potter isn't that good of a magic user" purely fueled by the fact there other users created better items? I mean I'm not claiming Harry is brilliant or anything but it seems your issue is that he isn't self-taught or anything means he's not only not brilliant but downright average even though everyone else except a few different people seem to be even worse.


:wtf: Who is the 3rd?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Simon_Jester »

My impression is that Harry's good at a few things, adequate at magic, but has personal qualities that make him a guy you want on your side in a fight regardless of how good he is at magic- he's relatively brave and determined and so on, and grows into a decent leader as the series proceeds.

Hermione is good at magic, but that's partly because she's such a compulsive studier- she works very hard to make up for the delay in beginning her education, and so winds up pulling ahead of the majority of the student body as time passes. Harry isn't so studious, so his being at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to spell-slinging is not unreasonable, nor does it reflect badly on him.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Ahriman238 »

Assuming the letter grades can simply be transposed (O=A etc.) Harry is a B-average student, not horrible but certainly not a prodigy of the magical arts either. Ho hum, extracurricular activities? Sports yes, pretty good, monster slaying? Damsel-saving? Driving off hundreds of fear-wraiths? Thwarting the Dark Lord and his minions? Stealing an egg from a dragon's nest?

Yes, the tournament was rigged from the start, and with hindsight we can see exactly how and where it happened. First Crouch tampers with the Goblet, who do they turn to, to see if Harry still has to compete? Crouch Sr. at this time under the Imperius. Who do they have invstigate the Goblet? Moody! Then he arranges (through Hagrid) for Harry to recieve advance warning about the dragons. Then he drops a very unsubtle hint that leads Harry to come up with a workable plan. He set up a way for Harry to stumble onto Gillyweed as the answer to the 2nd Task after his first class, but it was such a roundabout way of doing it and so unlikely to succeed that I can't call it a plan so much as a vague hope.

Finally, the 3rd Task he puts Krum under the Imperius and has him attack the other champions. That seems to have been the entire plan, get Harry to the 3rd Task alive, then eliminate the competition. Does this invalidate Harry's achievements in the tournament? I'd say, mostly. But even though Crouch let him know about the dragons, and strongly suggested how a dragon could be beaten, he didn't give Harry the cojones to get into the ring with an angry dragon (the biggest and meanest of the group, though such distinctions are kind of academic when dealing with fucking dragons!) or the skills to survive doing so, just the idea of how it might be done.

Any doubts I may have had about Harry being a hero were laid to rest when he stares down a pissed-off mother dragon and doesn't immediatly assume the fetal position and start crying. Well, at least until book 7, but if we get into that this thread will never end.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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Simon_Jester wrote:My impression is that Harry's good at a few things, adequate at magic, but has personal qualities that make him a guy you want on your side in a fight regardless of how good he is at magic- he's relatively brave and determined and so on, and grows into a decent leader as the series proceeds.

Hermione is good at magic, but that's partly because she's such a compulsive studier- she works very hard to make up for the delay in beginning her education, and so winds up pulling ahead of the majority of the student body as time passes. Harry isn't so studious, so his being at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to spell-slinging is not unreasonable, nor does it reflect badly on him.
That pretty much nails it. Harry may have some failings in certain areas, but he's good in others, which mostly makes up for it.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Lord Pounder »

IIRC from the notes JK Rowling wrote Harry and Ron went on to be Aurors and hunted down many of the remaining Death Eaters, despite never formally finishing their NEWTS. That's a sure indication that Harry has above average skills as if he was that bad he'd be dead by now.

In Hogwarts it's certain that Harry's power was boosted by the Horocrux inside him, his ability to speak Parcelmouth left him when the Horocrux was destroyed.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

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I find it rather refreshing that Harry didn't turn out to be a Neo-like Wizard in the series. You know he's the chosen one so you go into the movies expecting that he has to be the best at everything. Clearly Hermione is the smartest one of that trio. What Harry has instead is leadership ability and acts as a point of inspiration. His contributions are more intangible than concrete like creating magical items or super spells.

He wasn't the best or strongest wizard but he had the most practical experience facing dark wizards in his class and he had the ability to lead, something Hermione and to a lesser extent Ron doesn't have. So it was nice to see the hero for once not being this all powerful ass kicker but having a more subtle effect on the people around him. I look to the scenes in Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix where he rallies the students and creates then leads Dumbledore's Army as a prime example of where Harry's true strength lies. It's not in his magic but in his heart.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Guardsman Bass »

That's a great point, Stravo, and one of the things that the books (which go into more detail about Voldemort's background and personality) emphasize as well. It's why Voldemort keeps under-estimating Harry - he thinks that Harry is weak, relying on luck and more talented friends.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Crown »

Are people getting their knickers in a twist because I'm calling Harry Potter an average wizard they interpret that to mean I think he's an average character/protagonist/person? Because I'm not, I actually quite like these books and have on many, many occasions urged Stravo to read them (having myself read them in 2 languages).

I ask this, because stating - what seems to me - the obvious has been met with some strange screeches of outrage (nerdrage) completely disproportionate to accusation.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Alkaloid »

It's kind of funny to realise that Hermione, by far and away the best student in Harry's year or any of the years above and below them, was miles behind the Marauders. I hadn't thought about this before now, but they probably had a faculty of actual competent teachers compared to the ones we read about, of which the competent ones can be counted on one hand. It makes a bit of sense too, if Voldy was targeting and killing people likely to be a threat to him, that the people best suited to actually teach would also be the ones most likely to be targeted. You have to wonder what would have been different had they been properly taught.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by FaxModem1 »

Moving on from that, could Harry Potterverse magic be in a state of decline because every few generations or so there's some muckity muck who gets it in his/her head to conquer the Wizarding World and those who rise against that dark wizard usually are the most competent and most of them die in the battle, leaving only the meek and the hangers on, meaning that a lot of great Wizarding knowledge is lost, and whatever secrets or achievements they made won't be passed to the next generation? Would that make sense or just be silly?
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Glimmervoid »

FaxModem1 wrote:Moving on from that, could Harry Potterverse magic be in a state of decline because every few generations or so there's some muckity muck who gets it in his/her head to conquer the Wizarding World and those who rise against that dark wizard usually are the most competent and most of them die in the battle, leaving only the meek and the hangers on, meaning that a lot of great Wizarding knowledge is lost, and whatever secrets or achievements they made won't be passed to the next generation? Would that make sense or just be silly?
Silly really. Knowledge is written down in the Wizarding World. They have books full of spells, books about spells, a spell patent system and an educational system dedicated to teaching magic.

Quite frankly, far from degrading, there's plenty of evidence magic is getting better.

Just look at the broomsticks in canon. Each year sees newer and better models coming out, each faster, more manoeuvrable and/or cheaper than the one before.

We know they have spell and potion patents (again implying innovation) and we know that a truly innovative spell can thrust someone high up in a market (the Horton-Keitch Braking Charm, for example, allowed the Comet Trading Company to go from a two man outfit to one of the market leaders).

We see the dates for the creation of multiple spells, we know that there can be multiple versions of a spell for one function (breaking charms, Horton-Keitch Braking Charm, unbreakable Braking Charm etc), each improving on the last, and the Ministry of Magic has an entire level (the Department of Mysteries) devoted to studying magic. This last is further backed up by the existence of books like 'Magical Theory' by Adalbert Waffling, 'A Study of Recent Developments in Wizardry' and 'Important Modern Magical Discoveries'.

There are numerous other books implying innovation. 'A Guide to Medieval Sorcery' and 'An Anthology of Eighteenth-Century Charms'. Both imply that the magic of their respective time periods was sufficiently different from modern magic to be examinable, in the same way someone might write a book on the Eighteenth-Century art world. There are also periodicals like Transfiguration Today, Challenges in Charming and The Practical Potioneer, which apparently have a scholarly nature and it is considered an achievement to be published in.

The Harry Potter Wizarding World does have 'ancient powerful magic' (tm) but it's generally quite limited. Sacrifice magic (of the kind which saved Harry) needs not only a sacrifice but a true sacrifice, one where the victim had a chance to live but chose to die anyway. The potion which resurrected Voldermort likewise needed a strange set of ingredients (Bone of the father, flesh of a servant, Blood of a foe). It's magic of life, death, love, hate, sacrifice and symbolism. It might be powerful, sometimes, but it's not the kind of thing you want to rely on. Your unbeatable house shielding charm isn't much use if it stops working every new moon.
Last edited by Glimmervoid on 2011-10-25 06:41am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Muggle World

Post by Glimmervoid »

Double post. Sorry.
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