Harry Potter and the Muggle World

[Darth Tanner]

Though that does beg the question why clothing doesn't explode.

The spell is all over the place depending on the film/book, in some cases it throws you across the graveyard in others it simply drops you dead and in others it’s a beam weapon. It might just depend on how much hate your feeling at the time?

There were already people celebrating when Hagrid brought Harry to the Dursleys immediately after the attack.

Only theory I have is that as Hagrid was travelling by motorbike he took ages to get there somehow and the other wizards were just popping around instantly telling everyone. That still doesn’t make any sense with the timeline in the book where Vernon was seeing wizards celebrating all day long before Harry arrives. Not noticed that loop hole before!

Additionally, I don't remember Snape being there

That might just be from the film, I don't remember it being in the book at all but he goes to find Lilly’s corpse in the film when he gives Harry his memories.

Unfortunately, we don't know how many Death Eaters knew of the prophecy

Thinking about it I don't think it would have been likely Voldie would have told anyone, he definitely did when he sent his followers into the ministry as part of the Harry trap but he had to for the trap to work. For him to simply go kill the Potters he didn’t need to tell anyone once he had heard the prophecy from Snape.

How did he find out enough about the "Love-based protection" to raise the corresponding wards around Privet Drive in such a short time?

Did he have to? The love based stuff sorted itself out after the Potters sacrifice without his involvement didn’t it? The other charms could have been laid later at his leisure; I think one of the bonuses of putting Harry with the muggles was that people wouldn’t look for him there.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I woudl point out that the popular version of events (to wizards) isnt so much that Harry defeated Voldemort but that Harry survived an encounter with the Dark Lord. Hence "Boy Who Lived."

Witness Hagrid's explanation in book/film one. He says that "something about you stumped him that night." No specific mention of defeating him there.

As for the Ministry promoting this view, there's an easy explanation for that. The Ministry was coming out a brutal war. It needed a hero for poeple to rally behind, a living hero. We even see Scrimgeour trying the exact same thing in book 6.

[Calanor]

I didn't watch the films beyond the first three, so I can't really comment on the differences. The inconsistencies in the behavior of spells make an analysis certainly difficult.

Another thing: Do we know how and when the Fidelius on the Potter home fell? The Fidelius on Grimmauld Place still held after Dumbledore's death, though it is unknown if he was the one to cast it and if it depends on the caster (not the secret-keeper) to be alive to function. With Wormtail missing and Sirius in pursuit/in prison they shouldn't even be able to let others know of the secret. It should have been impossible for the Ministry to investigate if the charm was still up. In fact, they shouldn't even have been aware that James and Lily died. Very few people knew of their hiding place, and fewer still that it was Voldemort who attacked them. Voldemort might have told some of his minions that he was about to attack the Potters, but only Snape and Wormtail definitely knew. The connection between Harry and Voldemort's downfall would have to be deliberately revealed to the public by someone in the know.

Otherwise people would assume that Voldemort had simply disappeared after successfully killling the Potters.

After searching a bit in the wiki it appears that Dumbledore cast the first part of the blood wards on Harry and they activated when Petunia took him into her house. Though how he knew that Lily had sacrificied herself in that specific manner and he conviniently knew a charm to make use of that fact is an interesting question. Still, simply placing Harry on the doorstep with only a note was an assholish move, he could have at least spoken with the Dursleys. If my memory is correct the Dursleys found him on the next morning. Even assuming that he cast a warming charm, what would have happened if Harry woke up and decided to leave his basket? Children of that age are quite mobile, and it could have easily ended with the Boy-who-was-run-over-by-a-car.

[Ahriman238]

Obviously it was a bad thing and really wrong that Sirius got railroaded into prison. Now look at it from the cops/Dumbledore's point of view: They detect a massive magical disturbance in downtown London. A quick-response team (one and only appearance of Hit-Wizards in series) is dispatched where they find Sirius standing over a smoking crater, wand in hand, laughing hysterically. They stun the armed and dangerous-looking wizard, and question the surviving witnesses. Said witnesses report that a man (later identified as a friend of the killer's, one P. Pettigrew) confronted him in the street, shouting "Lily and James! How could you, Sirius!" before Sirius swung his wand and the whole street blew up, apparently killing Pettigrew (they found his finger) and a dozen innocent bystanders.

So they toss him in a cell for a little bit. Dumbledore said he personally testified that Sirius was the Potter's secret-keeper, whether that means a preliminary hearing, or just that he was questioned it seems clear that at least a little effort was expended to make sure the whole thing wasn't a mistake. Indeed, Dumbledore, and the entire Order had been aware of a traitor "close to the Potters" for over a year. Hell, that was probably most of the point behind switching secret-keepers, because most of the Order would know or could guess that he'd be the one.

Reading between the lines, it seems likely the entire Order was starting to meltdown from paranoia. The Death Eaters knew exactly who they were and were picking them off one-by-one. In fact, half of the Order was dead by the attack on the Potters. They had a mysterious informant in the ranks, and weren't getting any closer to finding him. Sirius and Remus, best of friends since school, both quietly suspected each other. Moody probably loudly suspected everyone but himself and Dumbledore.

So under the circumstances, I doubt Sirius being revealed as a traitor was that shocking. In a year of knowing there was a traitor, Dumbledore had to have at least considered the possibility it was him. Especially since his estranged family were hardcore Voldermort supporters and he did almost kill a student while at school. So that takes away a lot of the burning need to confront the traitor and demand answers, and as quickly as people go insane or die in Azkaban, if Dumbledore could put off that visit for 2 months or so, he may not see a point to going at all.

When Voldemort "died" the night he attacked the Potters, all the Dark Marks burned and faded away, all his standing spells including several legitimate Imperius curses failed. So it seems likely that people knew right away that something big had gone down. And it's not inconceivable that the news would be spreading around by lunchtime the next day. Godric's Hollow also seems to be a fair-sized village by Wizarding standards, with at least four magical families to wake up and find a ruined house they suddenly remember belongs to their neighbors, the Potters.

As for the Fidelius, we know when the secret-keeper dies everyone who was let in on the secret by the original secret-keeper becomes a secret-keeper themselves capable of spreading the information around. Everyone brought in after that will still be bound not to speak or write the secret. Do we know what happens when the people protected die? Or the building that was hidden is blown up? That would seem to provide reason enough for the spell to fail.

[Calanor]

You make some good points.

Still, Sirius’ behavior was actually pretty similar to an Imperius victim. Crouch senior was certainly somewhat crazy after prolonged exposure. I don’t think there is an easy way to check for the curse, or else it wouldn’t be so effective. The order thought Sirius was the secret keeper and likely traitor, but how did they come to the conclusion that Sirius betrayed them willingly? For people knowing Sirius personally wouldn’t it be more likely to assume that he broke under torture or Imperius?

But you are right, his track record would have worked against him. Sending Snape to a transformed Lupin was attempted murder, and he should have been tried, expelled or at least suspended for it. If James hadn’t stopped Snape it is likely that Remus would have been put down as obvious dangerous beast who couldn’t control himself, even if Snape survived. Dumbledore swept that under the rug and forbade Snape talking about it. I wonder how Snape felt about the fact that the famous Dumbledore simply ignored the laws by letting Remus attend school and displayed such blatant favoritism in face of a serious crime.

We simply don’t know enough about the particulars of the wizarding’s world justice system, but imprisonment without trial seems disturbingly common. There is a wizengamot which holds trials, but not everyone gets a trial. Astonishment is expressed that Sirius didn't have a trial, but there are three other examples of people being sent to Azkaban without trial in Harry’s time: Hagrid (CoS), the Imperiused Order member (OoP), and Stan from the Knight Bus (HBP) were all denied a trial. But considering the existence of pensieves, veritaserum and wizards’s oaths as well as the possibility of magical contracts enforced without one party’s consent (the goblet of fire) the entire system seems somewhat disjointed anyway.

The mechanics of the secret keeper issue are relatively clearly explained, but the other issues are unfortunately not. I don't remember the precise wording of the secret of Grimmauld Place, but I think it was "The headquartes of the Order of the Phoenix is located at 12 Grimmauld place". The charm still held after the order had evacuated the place for a time after Sirius death, and even after they abandoned it completely after Dumbledore's death it was still active, despite the secret being no longer true.

[Ahriman238]

No I don't think there's an easy test for Imperius. Except over a long period of time. Of course, even with things like Veritaserum, the wizards of Harry Potter have access to invisibility, memory alterations, mind control and limited shapeshifting. Any or all of these would almost completly invalidate eyewitness testimony.

It is interesting to consider, would the Imperius curse be enough to get the secret, or would the Secret-Keeper have to intentionally give it up? It seems clear the Secret can be imparted under duress. Could you get the Secret-Keeper drunk? What if someone made an Unbreakable Vow or magical contract swearing themselves to secrecy and were then questioned using Veritaserum or Imperius?

All of the examples given of people incarcerated without trial were exceptional cases. Unfortuanly most of them were exceptional because they were politically convenient and the question of their guilt or innocence rather academic to men like Fudge and Scrimgoeur.

[Eframepilot]

The Fidelius Charm was not well thought out at all. JKR explained on her website that if the Secret-Keeper dies then the secret is forever preserved with the people who heard it and later retconned it in book 7 to being passed down to all the shared people, making them Secret-Keepers. Furthermore, Bill became the Secret-Keeper for his own house, which raises the major question of why didn't James act as his own Secret-Keeper?

[The Romulan Republic]

You make some good points.

Still, Sirius’ behavior was actually pretty similar to an Imperius victim. Crouch senior was certainly somewhat crazy after prolonged exposure. I don’t think there is an easy way to check for the curse, or else it wouldn’t be so effective. The order thought Sirius was the secret keeper and likely traitor, but how did they come to the conclusion that Sirius betrayed them willingly? For people knowing Sirius personally wouldn’t it be more likely to assume that he broke under torture or Imperius?

But you are right, his track record would have worked against him. Sending Snape to a transformed Lupin was attempted murder, and he should have been tried, expelled or at least suspended for it. If James hadn’t stopped Snape it is likely that Remus would have been put down as obvious dangerous beast who couldn’t control himself, even if Snape survived. Dumbledore swept that under the rug and forbade Snape talking about it. I wonder how Snape felt about the fact that the famous Dumbledore simply ignored the laws by letting Remus attend school and displayed such blatant favoritism in face of a serious crime.

We simply don’t know enough about the particulars of the wizarding’s world justice system, but imprisonment without trial seems disturbingly common. There is a wizengamot which holds trials, but not everyone gets a trial. Astonishment is expressed that Sirius didn't have a trial, but there are three other examples of people being sent to Azkaban without trial in Harry’s time: Hagrid (CoS), the Imperiused Order member (OoP), and Stan from the Knight Bus (HBP) were all denied a trial. But considering the existence of pensieves, veritaserum and wizards’s oaths as well as the possibility of magical contracts enforced without one party’s consent (the goblet of fire) the entire system seems somewhat disjointed anyway.

The mechanics of the secret keeper issue are relatively clearly explained, but the other issues are unfortunately not. I don't remember the precise wording of the secret of Grimmauld Place, but I think it was "The headquartes of the Order of the Phoenix is located at 12 Grimmauld place". The charm still held after the order had evacuated the place for a time after Sirius death, and even after they abandoned it completely after Dumbledore's death it was still active, despite the secret being no longer true.

I think you have a pretty warped view of the whole Lupin/Sirius/Snape incident.

Yes, what Sirius did was horrible. But I don't think it was nessissarily favouritism that motivated Dumbledore there (nor do I recall any evidence that it was illegal for Lupin to be at school, and I really hate it when people pull fan made crap off the internet and treat it as canon, so you better provide a quote and page number or link now). I don't agree Lupin would have been likely killed for that incident, if it could be proved he wasn't in on it- he wasn't in control of himself after all. However, it might very well have been concluded it wasn't safe for him to be at Hogwarts: I could see the school governors or the Ministry overruling Dumbledore if a student was killed. It may be that Dumbledore kept it quiet because the alternative was an innocent boy who had no control over his actions being screwed over.

Edit: fixed an error regarding character names.

[Calanor]

I think you have a pretty warped view of the whole Lupin/Sirius/Snape incident.

Yes, what Sirius did was horrible. But I don't think it was nessissarily favouritism that motivated Dumbledore there (nor do I recall any evidence that it was illegal for Lupin to be at school, and I really hate it when people pull fan made crap off the internet and treat it as canon, so you better provide a quote and page number or link now). I don't agree Lupin would have been likely killed for that incident, if it could be proved he wasn't in on it- he wasn't in control of himself after all. However, it might very well have been concluded it wasn't safe for him to be at Hogwarts: I could see the school governors or the Ministry overruling Dumbledore if a student was killed. It may be that Dumbledore kept it quiet because the alternative was an innocent boy who had no control over his actions being screwed over.

Edit: fixed an error regarding character names.

I distinctly remember Remus and his parents fearing that he wouldn't be allowed to attend Hogwarts after his infection until Dumbledore specifically allowed him to while keeping his affliction secret. Furthermore, he thought he would be forced to leave Hogwarts in case his status was revealed. I always took that as there being laws against werewolf attendance at Hogwarts, but now that I think about it it might actually be up to the Headmaster's discretion and Dumbledore only feared public pressure. The latter view seems more supported by the wiki entry.

In Fantastic beasts and where to find them a werewolf register is mentioned, and that werewolves are regulated by the ministry, more specifially by the department for the regulation and control of magical creatures. If Remus' furry little problem was kept secret it would break that law, though I guess it's possible that the register isn't open to the public. It would certainly make more sense to make it publicly known who is a werewolf from a security standpoint considering that even injuries caused while untransformed have some effect. Bill Weasly for example developed some 'wolfish tendencies' after being wounded by Fenrir Greyback, even if a liking for rare steaks is rather harmless.

In case of him injuring or killing Snape, wouldn't he be treated the same as Buckbeak? Granted, Malfoy senior manipulated the hippogriff issue to blow it out of proportion, but a werewolf attack would be more serious. The wizarding world is heavily prejudiced against werewolves making extreme measures more likely. In addition, an investigation would probably discover that Remus left the shelter provided to him while transformed in company of the Marauders. Roaming the school grounds and especially the vicinity of Hogsmeade would certainly seen as putting other humans in danger deliberately. All it would take is someone being out late and a moment of inattention by them. I somehow doubt that the argument 'He became really tame while we were accompanying him in our animagus forms, which are unregistered and thereby illegal by the way' would carry much weight in the courts.

That might also cast doubts on the security provisions made by the Hogwards staff. An enchanted or locked room that Remus couldn't leave on his own power would have been much safer than the whomping willow, which can be bypassed by pretty much anyone.

I would call Sirius getting away with attempted murder favoritism. Perhaps justified for Remus' sake, but it was still covering up a crime. It's made worse by the fact that he was totally unrepentent.

Unfortunately, all this is from memory or the wiki and I don't have access to the books to provide citations at the moment or in the near future so I will have to concede if this isn't sufficient.

All of the examples given of people incarcerated without trial were exceptional cases. Unfortuanly most of them were exceptional because they were politically convenient and the question of their guilt or innocence rather academic to men like Fudge and Scrimgoeur.

It makes me wonder what sort of powers the minister has. Though maybe Hagrid has a track record of breaking laws regarding dangerous or regulated creatures besides his pet acromantula and Norbert the dragon. In case of the Order member, maybe he was imprisoned because he was trespassing in a restricted section of the ministry even without the Imperius? If I remember right he was the one guarding the prophecy that night.

Many incidents which involve Fudge (Hagrids arrest, him ordering Sirius kissed, letting the Dementor kiss Crouch junior before he could be questioned) seem like they should be normally handled by magical law enforcement. Curiously we never hear of any involvement of them when they probably should be included, like investigating Quirrels death/disappearance, the basilisk case, some aurors/ministry workers on site to control the dementors or in the aftermath of Cedric's death where they should have questioned Harry after he had recovered (Why didn't Dumbledore ask Harry to provide a memory? Sure, the official investigation might have been blocked and memories can be faked, but it might have convinced some people).

Regarding your earlier point of people going insane in short order inside of Azkaban, I wonder how much of that is hyperbole. The long-imprisoned Death Eaters were freed in January 1996 and were functional at the latest at the battle in the department of mysteries in June. If I remember right at least Rookwood was able to converse completely rationally with Voldemort about the particulars of who could remove prophecy orbs immediately after his jailbreak. I somehow doubt they got professional psychological help in the meantime.

[Eternal_Freedom]

On the matter of Lupin breaking laws to be at school, I always interpreted that as the parents of the other children would throw a massive wobbly if it were public knowledge.

Lupin said as much about his resignation: "SNape accidentally let slip that I was a werewolf at breakfastt his morning...by tomorrow the owls from parents will arrive saying [they don't want me here (words to that effect, I can't recall exactly)]." etc. And since so many students have influential relatives (Malfoy's father, Susan Bone's aunt in the Law Enforcement department, etc) it is likely the Ministry would act to get rid of Lupin.

The prejudice against "half-breeds" is clearly seen throughout the series, so I don't think there would have been a law against werewolves per se. Lupin also said "It's very hard to find work in my condition. not many people willin to employ werewolves."

[The Romulan Republic]

Actually, I believe there are some laws limiting wearwolves: didn't Lupin say Umbridge passed laws that made it hard for him to get any work in one of the books?

So there are legal barriers. We just don't know exactly what they are.

[Ahriman238]

Well, I'm not a bigot against werewolves (how oculd I be? they're imaginary.) but I'm distinctly discomforted by the idea of a man who occasionally turns into a berserk monster working and living with children. Ok, yes, they give him a potion for the entire week leading up to the full moon so he can control himself. But as we see, it only takes a single missed or misbrewed dose for the hwole thing to be completly ineffective. What was the backup plan there? Lupin said he curled up and slept in his office, a "tame werewolf," did they so much as bother to lock the door?

I don't hate or really dislike the character of Lupin, but you have to admit, his running off without taking his wolfsbane, even though he learned a dead friend was alive, was insanely reckless. Running off to find a small group of kids, when he wasn't safe? And remember, Lupin already almost killed a student unintentionally at Hogwarts, all those years ago.

[The Romulan Republic]

I doubt Lupin would have forgotten to take the potion if he hadn't been shocked by the whole finding out his supposedly murdered friend was still alive, due to the map. And stopping Harry killing Sirius. And having to deal with Snape and Pettigrew.

Here's the thing: Lupin is not a dangerous man more than 90 percent of the time. And not even that if he takes the potion. Should someone who is occassionally dangerous through absolutely no fault of their own be forbidden a wide range of careers as a result? Should he be not allowed to have children of his own?

Now, I do think an additional failsafe would have been appropriate, like locking him securely in an empty room each time he transformed just in case the potion didn't work. But outright forbidding him to work around children? Excessive and needless if proper precautions are taken.

[Ahriman238]

I doubt Lupin would have forgotten to take the potion if he hadn't been shocked by the whole finding out his supposedly murdered friend was still alive, due to the map. And stopping Harry killing Sirius. And having to deal with Snape and Pettigrew.

Here's the thing: Lupin is not a dangerous man more than 90 percent of the time. And not even that if he takes the potion. Should someone who is occassionally dangerous through absolutely no fault of their own be forbidden a wide range of careers as a result? Should he be not allowed to have children of his own?

Now, I do think an additional failsafe would have been appropriate, like locking him securely in an empty room each time he transformed just in case the potion didn't work. But outright forbidding him to work around children? Excessive and needless if proper precautions are taken.

Yes, but Lupin is a dangerous person 3-4% of the time. He cannot work in a school and forget that. Not ever. As an educator Lupin (and Dumbledore) should think first, last, and always of the safety of the students. Don't get me wrong, there's enough dangerous shit at Hogwarts that a real school would be closed a dozen times over, but hiring a werewolf really seems like tempting fate. Not that there were any safer, mor qualified candidates lining up for the job. And as bad as what happened was, Lupin made back a lot of credit in my eyes for owning up to his mistakes and resigning.

Unlike Snape, who not only was an utter bastard to students for his entire tenure at Hogwarts, but made precisely the same mistake. Snape, when he couldn't find Lupin to give him his last dose of Wolfsbane, also saw the map and also ran off without seeking help, and left the Wolfsbane in the office. And HE thought Lupin was Sirius' ACCOMPLICE! What did he think was going to happen when he confronted a werewolf during the full moon? The same wolf that almost killed him as a teen? For a man who complained about people rushing off and never htinking things through...

[The Romulan Republic]

Especially odd considering Snape is usually looking down on other people's stupidity, and is level headed enough to fool Voldemort with Occlumency.

[Coop D'etat]

Especially odd considering Snape is usually looking down on other people's stupidity, and is level headed enough to fool Voldemort with Occlumency.

Maybe Snape was confident he was good enough to face down a werewolf safely and would prefer Lupin transforms unsafely so Lupin get embarrassed, leaves and the Defense against Dark Arts job he wants opens up again.

[The Romulan Republic]

Especially odd considering Snape is usually looking down on other people's stupidity, and is level headed enough to fool Voldemort with Occlumency.

Maybe Snape was confident he was good enough to face down a werewolf safely and would prefer Lupin transforms unsafely so Lupin get embarrassed, leaves and the Defense against Dark Arts job he wants opens up again.

Or, getting a bit more sinister, so he'd have an excuse to kill him and argue self-defence.

After all, he was quite eager for Sirius to get his soul sucked out by a Dementor.

[Lord Falcon]

I tend to think that, as Romulan Republic pointed out, Snape was so eager to see his hated nemesis get kissed by a dementor that he became momentarily reckless. Snape is shown at times to be just as blinded by his emotions and as carelessly stupid as any of the students.

I'm pretty sure Dumbledore was Chief Warlock because he was the one who decided where to place Harry after the Potters were killed; how could he have made that decision if he wasn't?

The reason Dumbledore didn't expel or even suspend Sirius is obvious: The Blacks, like most other pureblood families, probably wielded some influence with the Ministry, enough so that, if an heir of the Blacks was expelled, they would inquire as to why, find out about Remus, and use their influence to have him put down which, due to the extreme prejudices in the Wizarding world, wouldn't be too hard, especially considering the Marauders' track records. And please don't say that the Blacks wouldn't have done so because he had fallen out of the family. At that point, he hadn't run away yet, so he was still a formal Black. Persecuting Remus would also have hurt Sirius, another motivation for them to do it. They might also see him as finally becoming a true Black.

Here's my three questions to this debate.

1) WHY are Love Potions still legal? A creepy, rather obsessed stalker almost drugged Harry with a Love Potion, and Fred and George routinely smuggle them into Hogwarts as part of their official business, all without Dumbledore ever stepping in to stop it! Love Potions, when it comes right down to it, are essentially nothing more than date rape drugs, along the same vein as the Imperius Curse. Worse yet, the use of them in the conception of a child can give birth to a child like Voldemort! This just makes no sense to me, and goes far beyond the usual "wizards are stupid" sthick.

2) While not getting into the aethism or afterlife debates already on this thread, in Harry Potter it is explicitly implied, if not shown, that there is something after death, heaven, or another plane of existence. Whatever you want to call it. With that said, what do you think happens to someone's soul when they are kissed by a dementor? Is the soul destroyed? Is it trapped? Does the dementor digest it? Can the victim still access the afterlife. That's all I'm going to say on the subject. I'll leave you guys to fill in the rest of the blanks.

3) Not really a question. My final point to address: The Weasleys are just as prejudiced as the other wizards. Don't believe me? Well, what about that Squib cousin of theirs who was an accountant? They never mention him/her or never speak of him/her, and I know the official explanation is that he/she was rude to them and they never reconciled, but that is cut content, behind-the-scenes stuff, so to speak, and doesn't really count as canon, at least in my opinion. Also notice the way in which Mr. Weasley oh so patronizingly talks about Muggle technology, displaying his own ignorance and lack of understanding? I'm not saying he or his family are hardcore fanatics who advocate the deaths of Muggles and Muggle-borns around the world, but they DO tend to think that magic is the superior way to live, when it is in fact just the easiest way. They talk about treating Muggles as equals, yet they never put it into practice by considering that magic and technology BOTH have their own unique strengths and weaknesses when compared as a whole, and that in order to function together, they need to move past these differences and utilize them as a united society. But then again, I guess that is the whole point of racism in the real world.

*shrug*

[The Romulan Republic]

I still rather doubt it would have been possible for them to actually have Lupin killed. There's no evidence that execution of wearwolves is practiced in Harry Potter. Plus, you know Dumbledore would have probably testified in Lupin's defence, and Dumbledore probably carries more political clout than the Black family.

Granted, their are plenty of other ways Lupin could get screwed over, starting with expulsion. Wearwolves might not be murdered, but at they are subjected to legal discrimination.

[Lord Falcon]

It's been shown multiple times throughout the canon books that Dumbledore's influence only stretches so far. But you have a point: If Lupin actually killed Snape, I can see how they'd execute him, but he didn't, so that probably wouldn't be an issue. Though I do think this is the only reasonable explanation for Dumbledore not expelling Sirius as opposed to the "Dumbledore favoritism" argument, not that I think it might be invalid. I'm just trying to explore all possibilities.

[The Romulan Republic]

Granted, Dumbledore is not all-powerful. However, he is probably the single most respected wizard in the world, and Hogwarts is the centre of his authority. At this point he had already probably been offered the post of Minister. He might not be able to get Lupin off completely, and he'd probably have to throw Sirius under the bus to do it, but his word would carry some weight in a hearing.

[JME2]

I tend to think that, as Romulan Republic pointed out, Snape was so eager to see his hated nemesis get kissed by a dementor that he became momentarily reckless. Snape is shown at times to be just as blinded by his emotions and as carelessly stupid as any of the students.

Agreed and always ironic given how Snape preached emotional neutrality.

Snape's recklessness during the POA climax also has additional context if you take into account that, as far as he knew, Sirrius was the one who got his childhood crush killed.

[ray245]

Here's my three questions to this debate.

1) WHY are Love Potions still legal? A creepy, rather obsessed stalker almost drugged Harry with a Love Potion, and Fred and George routinely smuggle them into Hogwarts as part of their official business, all without Dumbledore ever stepping in to stop it! Love Potions, when it comes right down to it, are essentially nothing more than date rape drugs, along the same vein as the Imperius Curse. Worse yet, the use of them in the conception of a child can give birth to a child like Voldemort! This just makes no sense to me, and goes far beyond the usual "wizards are stupid" sthick.

We do not know the full details of the law. Perhaps it might be possible that only mild love potion are legalised and the effects of a mild love potion would only result in a person noticing that someone is attracted to them?

[Lord Falcon]

Love Potions, no matter what shape or form, are similar in function to the Imperius Curse; they remove a person's free will. Fred and George were routinely selling them to Hogwarts students by smuggling them in, and a sixth year stalker planned to do this to Harry. Suppose after he had fallen under her spell, she made him her "boyfriend," a term I use very loosely in this regard. Suppose they went farther than that and actually had sex. That would constitute date rape. What if she had become impregnated, hm? A child born in a union held together by a Love Potion is potentially a Lord Voldemort in the making. What would happen in this series if Harry had drank the Love Potion? Would they all laugh and shrug their shoulders in casual dismissal once they found out? Little wonder Tom Riddle left Merope, then. And we're supposed to feel sorry for her.

[The Romulan Republic]

Merope might have done something rather horrible, but given the circumstances she grew up in and the way she died, I do feel sorry for her. Nobody deserves that. And if she hadn't been treated like subhuman shit her whole life, she might have turned out better.

Also, I hate the idea that being conceived by a love potion made Voldemort evil. Not only does it directly contradict the theme of people's choices being important by suggesting that Voldemort was made evil by his mother's actions, but it also implies that children conceived through rape are inherently bad people, which is a horrible message.