Asian Fantasy vs European Fantasy?

[Gurgeh]

Just like my other two threads about this kind of topic. Which do you think is better and who would win in a fight? Your basic European medieval fantasy vs Asian fantasy settings?

European Medieval Fantasy: This is basically like your Tolkien like ME or Narnia here there that has been repeated in other fantasy novels for many many times. In this you have all the classic races in this such as: Dwarf's who live in the mountain holes to mine their riches, elves who live in the forest who are fleeing from the world only to have some stay there, goblins to attack the Dwarf's for their minerals, A world of men that has built great kingdoms with 12-13th century like technology (or whatever technological setting most fantasy nations seem to be at), Orc's and evil men and also to top the cliche cake we have a dark lord ready to enslave the entire world for world domination and to have it in his grips

Than you have your Asian fantasy that has a culture much like Chinese culture or Japanese with other Asian mythologies and other powers that only seem to exist within each other and other elements like that. So what would happen if these two worlds where to clash with one another and to start a war if they ever got into one? Who would win?

The reason why I ask this is right now I am reading the Riftwar saga or the book called Magician: apprentice and I found it to be a very good book to read and it made me wonder who would win if the two fantasy elements ever clashed with one another.

[Stark]

Are you a fucking retard? Did you just generalise across two types of fiction defined by their imaginative content?

Will you claim that, say, ninja scroll isn't 'asian' fantasy?

[Batman]

Given that western fantasy spans a massive variety of power levels (ranging from The Hobbit's Gandalf, which was treed by a bunch of Worgs, to Feist's own Pug, who had the power to change the multiverse, or the D&D high ends) and that while I don't know enough asian fantasy to say for sure I very much doubt it's any different for them, that's probably a question impossible to answer.

[Bakustra]

Just like my other two threads about this kind of topic. Which do you think is better and who would win in a fight? Your basic European medieval fantasy vs Asian fantasy settings?

European Medieval Fantasy: This is basically like your Tolkien like ME or Narnia here there that has been repeated in other fantasy novels for many many times. In this you have all the classic races in this such as: Dwarf's who live in the mountain holes to mine their riches, elves who live in the forest who are fleeing from the world only to have some stay there, goblins to attack the Dwarf's for their minerals, A world of men that has built great kingdoms with 12-13th century like technology (or whatever technological setting most fantasy nations seem to be at), Orc's and evil men and also to top the cliche cake we have a dark lord ready to enslave the entire world for world domination and to have it in his grips

Than you have your Asian fantasy that has a culture much like Chinese culture or Japanese with other Asian mythologies and other powers that only seem to exist within each other and other elements like that. So what would happen if these two worlds where to clash with one another and to start a war if they ever got into one? Who would win?

The reason why I ask this is right now I am reading the Riftwar saga or the book called Magician: apprentice and I found it to be a very good book to read and it made me wonder who would win if the two fantasy elements ever clashed with one another.

ATTN: Re: Asian Fantasy vs European Fantasy?

Your thread has been found to be lacking in cognizance of fantastic works. Please remedy the situation by showing how one (1) of the following works: Midnight's Children, Haroun and the Sea of Stories, or The Satanic Verses, all by Salman Rushdie, fits into the category of 'Asian Fantasy' you outlined and showing how one (1) of the following works: Declare, On Stranger Tides, or The Anubis Gates, all by Tim Powers, falls into the category of 'European Fantasy' you outlined. Failure to comply will result in mockery, hilarity, and nonstop laffs.

Regards,
Subdirector Bakustra
Society for the Preservation and Incubation of the Fantastic in Fiction (SPIFF).

[Gurgeh]

Ok. I guess this should just be locked than.

[mr friendly guy]

Presumably he means Asian fantasy where its set in a world heavily influenced from ancient Asian cultures, regardless of the ethnicity of the author of that fantasy. So the Last Airbender would count as an Asian fantasy under this criteria. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[TOSDOC]

I was wondering if Godzilla and Gamera would apply to his concept of Asian fantasy as well, or would we be talking about Yokai monsters here instead?

[fgalkin]

Are you a fucking retard? Did you just generalise across two types of fiction defined by their imaginative content?

Will you claim that, say, ninja scroll isn't 'asian' fantasy?

He's reading Riftwar which, besides being a particularly boring example of Fat Fantasy, features just that- a conflict between generic Tolkien knockoffs (complete with a trip through the Mines of Moria) and generic Japanese knockoffs. Obviously, it blew the poster's mind.

As for who'd win, that's a tough one. "European" fantasy has things like Perumov's "Godsdoom" which has literally world-shattering powers, while "Asian" fantasy has things like Exalted, which has harnessed the no-limits fallacy into an actual playable power. I'd say it's a MAD and move on.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stark]

It's still crazy, because KNIGHTS VS NINJAS LOL isn't uncommon in fantasy; both European and Asian creators have used this kind of imagery.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

well the musket was pretty awesome in jade empire so i bet the europeans would win

quod erat demonstrandum

[Vendetta]

well the musket was pretty awesome in jade empire so i bet the europeans would win

quod erat demonstrandum

Mostly because you got it off John Cleese. He lent his power to your quest.

[edaw1982]

Mostly because you got it off John Cleese. He lent his power to your quest.

John Cleese makes anything awesome.

Romanes Eunt Domus!



But as to the topic at hand. 'Asian Fantasy' tends to be more footsticuffs and liberal use of Ki/Chi or some variation thereof, and dragons are practically Gods, rather than 'big-scary-annoying-monsters' because that's pretty much how they were seen.

Personally I'd rather see someone actually try out a real 'Minotaurs and Mazes'.

[PainRack]

Methinks that the traditional Asian fantasy of entire armies serving as nothing more than cannon fodder to be blown through by your hero general are generally more powerful.

That's if we ignore the Canonisation of the Gods and etc, which was essentially a God creation myth that had Nezha eventually holding off entire floods, rain and etc.

He then got nerfed however in Journey to the West when Sun Wu Kong is the superhero:D

[mr friendly guy]

Methinks that the traditional Asian fantasy of entire armies serving as nothing more than cannon fodder to be blown through by your hero general are generally more powerful.

That's if we ignore the Canonisation of the Gods and etc, which was essentially a God creation myth that had Nezha eventually holding off entire floods, rain and etc.

He then got nerfed however in Journey to the West when Sun Wu Kong is the superhero:D

Sun Wukong in turn got beaten by Erlang, Guanyin, Buddha and <insert uber powerful demon / plot device here> including Hong Hai Er, that demon with the magic breath, the Cow demon with the magic absorbing ring, that Toaist immortal with the fruits which look like human foetuses, that other demon who has thousands of eyes in his body which emits bright beams of light etc.

Of course if Sun Wukong had some ruthlessness he could have distracted the demon from the front and just create a bunch of monkeys to attack from behind, and would most probably win.

[PainRack]

Sun Wukong in turn got beaten by Erlang, Guanyin, Buddha and <insert uber powerful demon / plot device here> including Hong Hai Er, that demon with the magic breath, the Cow demon with the magic absorbing ring, that Toaist immortal with the fruits which look like human foetuses, that other demon who has thousands of eyes in his body which emits bright beams of light etc.

Of course if Sun Wukong had some ruthlessness he could have distracted the demon from the front and just create a bunch of monkeys to attack from behind, and would most probably win.

Oooh. How did I forget Erlang Shen. One of the most uber generals in Canonisation of Deities.... Seriously, why bother with an army? Their sole purpose in canonisation of deities was to just eat up rations and require the intervention of your generals to save them from magic.

Hell. While we're on the topic of fantasy, let's not forget Yue Fei. A red beam of light springs forth, protecting your general...... since when did the Jin generals master Force Shield and Summon minion?:D:D:D:D:D

Hua Mulan is probably one of the weaker fantasy heroes there is... and even she has the blast through enemy camp going on for her.

Zhang Fei has warcry as a power, sufficient to kill/shock his enemies into insensibility. Guan Yu Fei Long Zai Tian is probably one of my favourite moves ever... Whoever thought Shoryukan could be translated into a combat maneveur. Zhao Yun has Deflect Arrows with spear combined with some extremely wonky shit with stabbing people in mid air. I can't recall what Ma Chao and Huang Zhong has from the anime....

[mr friendly guy]

Which fantasy comic / book had Yue Fei fighting the super powered Jin troops? I would be interested in that, although we know unless they do a total alternate history, Yue Fei will get executed by the corrupt emperor.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Look, these are very very diverse genres and it is very difficult to generalize across them. I have seen people talk about both literature and actual folklore in this thread. Literature is completely non-comparable. The level of powers between authors varies so much, the argument is pointless. There are some things that can be said about actual folklore though.

First, cannon fodder infantry: Europe wins. In a real contest, most of the fighting and holding of territory will be done by european infantry, which had better steel, and more of it. This means overall, they had better weapons and armor. Additionally, against slashing weapons (such as most japanese swords and polearms), chainmail is... well... vastly superior to japanese armors. When you consider that even light infantry in the dark ages had a kite shaped or lenticular shield that could withstand blows from a dane axe, there really is no contest.

Once we consider the folklore, I am not really sure. Asian dragons may have been viewed as gods, but from what I remember of Asian folklore, the things they actually do are not a whole lot different from the european variety. Depending on the story, you get various forms of shapeshifting, transforming others, cursing of people. Euro-dragons tend to do a bit more despoiling.

I am not sure there is a whole lot of substantive difference in demon folklore either. Just differences in tone. I could be wrong there.

The powers of sorcerers vary. A lot. In fact depending on the telling, the same sorcerer can have vastly different powers and abilities. You kinda have to specify a sorcerer and go from there.

Epic heroes? Well, I dont know much about asian epic heroes, so perhaps someone spelling a few of them out to me would be a good starting point.

[Stark]

Are you seriously saying the ridiculous term 'asian fantasy' doesn't include various works of fantasy from asia, because you don't like them?

'Asian' 'fantasy' is full of demigods, superheroes, world-conquering armies, etc. The very idea of saying 'HO HO BETTER STEEL IN EUROPE' in a fantasy thread makes you the king of all morons.

Maybe the thread should be about Conan and DnD vs all the Three Kingdoms fantasy ever. That'd be a laugh.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Are you seriously saying the ridiculous term 'asian fantasy' doesn't include various works of fantasy from asia, because you don't like them?

'Asian' 'fantasy' is full of demigods, superheroes, world-conquering armies, etc. The very idea of saying 'HO HO BETTER STEEL IN EUROPE' in a fantasy thread makes you the king of all morons.

Maybe the thread should be about Conan and DnD vs all the Three Kingdoms fantasy ever. That'd be a laugh.

Read the post, idiot.

Look, these are very very diverse genres and it is very difficult to generalize across them. I have seen people talk about both literature and actual folklore in this thread. Literature is completely non-comparable. The level of powers between authors varies so much, the argument is pointless. There are some things that can be said about actual folklore though.

There is too much variation among works of (recent) literature to make a comparison. Every author either mixes and matches things, or makes shit up ex nihlo . You CAN compare actual folklore, because many of the themes are comparable, and you can assume some things about the world to reduce the number and range of variables you must consider: Namely that things like steel, outside of the Epic Heroes who exist within the folklore tradition, are as per earth normal (everyone but the likes of King Arthur has a sword made out of nice typical pattern welded steel, which has known properties). For example: In medieval folklore, a succubus is a succubus. There is a nice fairly standard set of traditions around those. The same goes for many other mythical beasts. I know more about european folklore than I do asian. Which is why I suggested that someone who knows more asian folklore could help me out with the specifics. We can for example, compare Demons and see what wins. Compare dragons and see what wins etc.

[Bakustra]

If we're going to go that direction, then "Asian folklore", by virtue of possessing WMDs in the form of the Brahmastra, and a doomsday weapon in the form of the Brahmashira, wins.

But the idea that you can reduce things to "European fantasy" versus "Asian fantasy" or even "European folklore" versus "Asian folklore" is reductionist, Orientalist, Occidentalist, and frankly absurd.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

European folklore often includes Death, God, and Satan as actual characters.

ABSTRACT UNIVERSAL POWER-OFF!

[Thanas]

European fantasy has the only multi-universe, multi-dimensional and multi-multiverse spanning entity. So they win by default as they have the only entitiy able to survive all the MAD that will be flung around.

[Bakustra]

European folklore often includes Death, God, and Satan as actual characters.

ABSTRACT UNIVERSAL POWER-OFF!

Both sides have an omnipotent God on their side, seeing as Islamic folklore counts as "Asian" (told you it was Orientalist). Infinities cancel out!

[edaw1982]

Either way, Cthulu's tentacle-raping some Japanese school-girls. I'd say he wins by default.

Joking aside though, I guess it depends on which 'Diet(ies)y' are more likely to directly intervene. Let's face it, the Jewish Mountain God tends to be very hands off in most affairs, usually working through some sort of intimediary (Moses, the clarion that brought down the walls of Jericho, Jesus).
The only exceptions I can recall were BDZing Soddom and Gamorrah, and flooding the world.

If the Asian (which would include the Indian as well) Gods and Goddesses, are more directly involved in affairs, then they probably win.

[Batman]

The various iterations of Yahweh generally didn't. The greek pantheon on the other hand ...