file sharing, cbr files & the comic back issue market

[mr friendly guy]

These days comic books can be scanned into various file formats which make reading them convenient, such as pdf or cbr or cbz files. These are readily available on line if one searches hard enough. Now I am not talking about files of recently released comics, since that could potentially be argued to cost $$ for comic book publishers.

The issue of copy right violation seems academic in regards to back issues. For examples like Crossgen comics (the company bankrupted long ago) or comics published in the 90s. This is presumably because companies are not planning to reprint them so they aren't losing any sales. However it occurred to me that this might affect the back issue market.

Obviously die hard collectors would be unaffected, but people who are just interested in reading them can now download comics for free and would no longer buy from the neighbourhood comic shop.

My question is, do people feel that the readily available comic content on line would seriously affect the back issue market? Or would people who download comics most probably not bother to buy these particular back issues anyway?

BTW - it also occurs to me this might also be appropriate for OT, but I thought I would focus in on comics rather than pirating in general.

[Sarevok]

I doubt it. Reading comics in a screen, even a good eReader or iPad is no substitute for printed issue. Aesthetics aside I think even many casual readers feel pride in old comic issues they have lying around. I barely read any comics but even I love the handful of Star Wars comics I have. It's a physical object I can show my friends, I can lend to them instead of a soulless PDF on my hard drive.

There will always be room for the backissues market for much the same reasons theaters survive today. People associate comics and movies with an experience that is distinct from digesting the story itself. Everyone has their fond memories of seeing some movie in a theater or owning a comic book in their childhood. That can not be replicated by a file downloaded from the internet.

[General Zod]

I'm not sure I see the issue here. The copyright issue is a non-issue, because whether they plan to reprint them is irrelevant to whether or not they're still copyrighted. As far as the used issue market, who cares? They can't sell issues that if everyone is holding onto their copies and they don't put money into the pockets of the works' creators. "Used market" is also an extremely nebulous term that can describe anything from hole in the wall comic book shops to someone selling their collection on ebay, and since they're not the ones creating content I'm not sure I see any ethical obligation to them.

[Darth Fanboy]

I'd pay DC $3/month per title to have my favorite monthlies sent to me in an electronic format. Sorry local comic book stores I will still come and buy the trades when they are released but that would be hella convenient and it would actually convince me to get something like a tablet or comic friendly e-reader.

[General Zod]

I'd pay DC $3/month per title to have my favorite monthlies sent to me in an electronic format. Sorry local comic book stores I will still come and buy the trades when they are released but that would be hella convenient and it would actually convince me to get something like a tablet or comic friendly e-reader.

If you have a PSP or an iPad, you can.

[TOSDOC]

I haven't seen the PSP or ipad versions, but I have a PDF reader for textbooks and novels and a couple of the Farscape app comics on my itouch, and they are a pain in my ass to read. Flipping a comic frame by frame on an app, or blowing up and scrolling a PDF, is no way to read a comic compared to holding it in your hands. Doing so allows your brain to process the frames from one to the next in a way that you visualize the action and sequences of events smoothly, creating that story in your head that is the point of the graphics in the first place. Even with the ease of downloading and carrying it with you, which I'm sure some people will still want to do, I don't think the market is going to be seriously affected yet by this, at least on small devices.

[Tsyroc]

I haven't seen the PSP or ipad versions, but I have a PDF reader for textbooks and novels and a couple of the Farscape app comics on my itouch, and they are a pain in my ass to read. Flipping a comic frame by frame on an app, or blowing up and scrolling a PDF, is no way to read a comic compared to holding it in your hands. Doing so allows your brain to process the frames from one to the next in a way that you visualize the action and sequences of events smoothly, creating that story in your head that is the point of the graphics in the first place. Even with the ease of downloading and carrying it with you, which I'm sure some people will still want to do, I don't think the market is going to be seriously affected yet by this, at least on small devices.

I have 44 years worth of Fantastic Four and however many years of the various Silver Surfer comics on my iPad in pdf format and you are correct that it is a bit of a pain in the ass. With a little bit of practice I got pretty good at reading them in the GoodReader app but it is nowhere near as easy to use as the various Mavel/DC/Image apps for the iPad. How they format them works very well on the iPad. At this point I've only read the comics that have been available for free on those apps. I'm not sure that subscribing through those apps is quite as good as doing it through the respective company websites, and I think both versions still show bias towards the print versions. Meaning that the ecomics come out quite a bit after the print ones do. Plus I don't think you can subscribe to all of their current comics. A friend of mine has said that he's really liked Marvel's service because he's been able to get into a lot of old back issues, in his case Tomb of Dracula.

If they put all of the comics out in an electronic format in a reasonable time frame I'd be all for that. Even if I had to wait the same amount of time I wait to by TPB versions. Plus, as much as I like having a several of Marvel's titles on CD and DVD, the pdf format doesn't work that great on a tablet and while it is better on a PC I like the format that the comics released for the iPad apps much better.

[Broomstick]

Obviously die hard collectors would be unaffected, but people who are just interested in reading them can now download comics for free and would no longer buy from the neighbourhood comic shop.

I almost never bought back issues from the local comic shops because of some of the price gouging that went on with that. Once in a great while I've read a scanned comic book because I was interested in the storyline or referenced something, but I'm uneasy about it due to legal issues.

I could see a potential for a "I just want to read/look at the content" back issue market that is digital and inexpensive, with the "actual object" back issue market continuing as before. They are actually two different markets if you think about it. There are people who read Origin of the Species for the content, and those who might collect the first edition of same and never actually open the cover to read it.

My question is, do people feel that the readily available comic content on line would seriously affect the back issue market? Or would people who download comics most probably not bother to buy these particular back issues anyway?

Handled properly it might slightly increase the market for back issues, as there are folks like me who would be content with PDF's and the like due to budget constraints but could pay a nominal price for those files. It shouldn't affect the "actual object" collectors who aren't interested in electronic versions at all. The only segment it's likely to affect are those willing to buy graphic-novel length compilations of back issues. But such compilations only offer a very small portion of the back issues produced. Releasing digital files of back issues might be cheaper to do for the publisher as it would not involve printing more actual objects (there would be costs for converting hardcopy to e-file). Some people might still be willing to buy graphic novel re-releases anyway.

Again, there's a potential for this to yield more revenue than foregoing e-back issues, but I'm not sure I trust the industry as it is to not fuck it up. On the other hand, the current big players in comics seem to have some grasp of multiple revenue streams and licensing (comic book, movie, action figures, etc.) so maybe they'd do it better than the music industry.

[Serafina]

There are people who read Origin of the Species for the content, and those who might collect the first edition of same and never actually open the cover to read it.

Fun fact:
The most that was ever paid for a comic book was ~1.5 million USD, for a Action Comics #1.
A first edition of Origin of Species costs only about 175K USD (the most every paid for one) by comparision.

[General Zod]

A lot of collectors are probably going to buy two copies anyway. One to actually read and the other to hermetically seal away.

[Broomstick]

Well, if you've ever read the content of both of them (and I actually have), let me tell you, Action Comics #1 was a LOT more fun - I suspect that might have something to do with popularity and pricing

[Darth Fanboy]

If you have a PSP or an iPad, you can.

I ask about DC and you link me to MARVEL. Why I oughta......

After a little googling it turns out DC's Ipad app is going to be done by the same developer as the Marvel app but the titles available are pretty limited from what I could tell, it wasn't at the point of offering new issues monthly yet (at least for DC).

[General Zod]

If you have a PSP or an iPad, you can.

I ask about DC and you link me to MARVEL. Why I oughta......

If you paid attention you'd have noticed I linked to both.

[Darth Fanboy]

Yes but you still gave me Marvel, which was my point. I can't even read Deadpool nowadays that is how bad they have gotten.

[Manus Celer Dei]

A couple of comic creators (Neil Gaiman and Grant Morrisson come to mind) have said in interviews things along the lines of "You may as well just pirate it" when it comes to certain things are not likely to ever see a reprint due to the ownership rights being all tangled. Honestly my approach to comic piracy can be pretty much summed up as "If the publisher can't be bother printing and selling it anymore, I can't be bothered hunting through the secondary market to find it". The creator isn't getting any profit either way, so who cares if I save the time and expense of dicking around searching ebay or pawing through stacks of crap in comic shops?

Obviously it's hugely different in the case of newly published and still-in-print stuff, but Steve Leiber, who drew the indie comic Underground had an interesting experience with 4chan's comic board that may be relevant.

[Sriad]

I feel no guilt at all getting CBRs of comics in the following circumstances:

- Out of print/hard to find. Flex Mentallo and Miracleman are the best examples; I would have spent well north of a thousand dollars in the resale market to read them, not a cent of which would have gone to the creators.

- Books I've already bought/will buy soon.
-- Organization: It's worlds easier to page through or search a couple folders on my computer if I want to check out a back issue than find the physical copy.
-- Being able to participate in current discussion. Not needing to wait until my next paycheck to participate in online chatting about the latest issue of Invincible is a strong incentive to keep current. It's also helpful to be able to post an individual page or two; I've convinced at least a few people that Spoiler

Leo Quintum is Lex Luthor

that way.

-...And then there's the questionable one: books I don't know/don't plan to buy. I rationalize this in two ways:
--There's nothing illegal about sitting down in Barnes and Nobles for a couple hours and reading TPBs off the shelf.
--Previewing comics this way has led me to buy things I otherwise wouldn't have. Best example is "I Kill Giants"; after reading it online I went out and bought TWO copies with my next paycheck. One for me and one as a gift for my sister.

[mr friendly guy]

I'm not sure I see the issue here. The copyright issue is a non-issue, because whether they plan to reprint them is irrelevant to whether or not they're still copyrighted. As far as the used issue market, who cares? They can't sell issues that if everyone is holding onto their copies and they don't put money into the pockets of the works' creators. "Used market" is also an extremely nebulous term that can describe anything from hole in the wall comic book shops to someone selling their collection on ebay, and since they're not the ones creating content I'm not sure I see any ethical obligation to them.

Oops. I meant to talk about whether it counts as piracy, but Sriad answered it nicely.

Any way, to expand on Tsyroc says, I have got the Avengers vol 1 on pdf brought off amazon. Marvel once allowed some company to scan their comics into pdf before they decided to go it alone. PDF files can be expanded, but it doesn't look as good as having the comic in your hand. The same can be said of cbr and cbz files. I do however feel more inclined to read a few of these than hunt for back issues on the market, which as mentioned earlier the publisher doesn't get a cent. I do of course wonder whether this will affect the local comic shops.

[General Zod]

Oops. I meant to talk about whether it counts as piracy, but Sriad answered it nicely.

It's pretty cut and dry the way I see it. If it's not in public domain and the author hasn't given permission to redistribute, then strictly legally speaking you're committing piracy/infringement. Whether or not there's any moral hangups involved is a separate issue altogether. It's not as if the concept of digital piracy has an inherent moral position.

[Tsyroc]

Any way, to expand on Tsyroc says, I have got the Avengers vol 1 on pdf brought off amazon. Marvel once allowed some company to scan their comics into pdf before they decided to go it alone. PDF files can be expanded, but it doesn't look as good as having the comic in your hand. The same can be said of cbr and cbz files. I do however feel more inclined to read a few of these than hunt for back issues on the market, which as mentioned earlier the publisher doesn't get a cent. I do of course wonder whether this will affect the local comic shops.

I have several of the offerings from that company. They are very handy for quick referencing comics or if you don't have the room to store thousands of comics, but the format could be better for reading and it really isn't intended for viewing on anything other than a normal computer. While the program does allow printing it was created before there were any tablets or ereaders that someone might want to read the comics on. So getting them on there isn't super simple but still fairly easy.

One of the things that does blow in regards to these collections is that cross overs into other titles are not included. Which becomes a big problem in later years of the comics because of all of those multi book crossovers that Marvel loves to do.

FYI: While gitcorp is no longer doing collections of Marvel comics I believe they are still doing Archie and related comics if anyone is interested in those. I was really bummed when they stopped making the Marvel ones right as they had announced the next ones were Thor and Daredevil. Both would have been nice to have. Instead Ghost Rider and a redone FF disk with all of the Silver Surfer comics included were put out because the GR and second FF movies were out around that time. To tell you the truth it seems crazy that Marvel was selling 40 years of a comic book title for around $30 bucks. I'm sure they could make more money having all of their stuff on line and charging people some sort of subscription or access fee.