On Floating Mountains

[Zor]

Inspired by the Avatar trailers as well as Vision of Escaflowne.

Lets say that you have a world that is earthlike in most regards save for one rather fantastic element (hence why this is in fantasy), the fact that it has floating mountains. These are fairly stable masses of stone ranging in size from about ten meters across to a few kilometers in length and are irregular in shape, floating at altitutes between 1,000 and 5,000 meters above the immediate surface (water or land, although dropping in altitutude over water). Occasionally (as in once every few thousand years), a section of mountain range pushed up by plate tectonics and so forth breaks off and floats away and mountains that errode enough down to really small bits fall back to the surface of the planet.

This leads to the questions of the thread...
1-How would life adapt to make use of such an Environment?
2-Lets say we have a population of Humans on this planet that has gone under an agricultural revolution adapt to such enviroments (with special emphisis on the colonization of these flying mountains)

Zor

Edit-Could someone move this to Fantasy?

[Starglider]

1-How would life adapt to make use of such an Environment?

Good predator-free nesting site for birds, you might get some temporary flightless varities up there if the mountains last long enough. The storms will be really harsh though.

2-Lets say we have a population of Humans on this planet that has gone under an agricultural revolution adapt to such enviroments (with special emphisis on the colonization of these flying mountains)

How are they going to get up there? The only mechanism viable for primitive humans is hot air balloons, which are extremely dicey - in fact without high-density fuels and lightweight materials I'm not sure they can even reach 1km altitude. Certainly they will not be able to do so with a useful payload. Even if they could, why would you want to colonise these floating mountains? They won't have a significant amount of fresh water and any soil up there will probably get washed off after a few thousand years of decent storms. They'd have to have bowl-like concave tops to be habitable at all.

[Sea Skimmer]

Even if the rock can somehow fly, that doesn’t inherently change the fact that the tensile strength of rock sucks. So these flying mountains would be incredibly prone to breaking up from freeze/thaw cycles and from collisions with each other and other mountains. They might be hard pressed to last 10 years before major breakups, let alone thousands. Other then birds and insects nothing is going to live on them normally unless they are colossal. Even plant life will have trouble because of the extreme cold at 5,000 meters. Like Starglider pointed out they’d be hit especially hard by storms because sustained winds are higher at significant altitudes then they are right along ground level.

I’ve used ideas like this in stories before and I’ve always kept the size and altitude restricted because of these factors. My method for explaining how it could occur resolves around the existence of a natural anti gravity element, which can be concentrated in certain areas of earth by factors I wont go into. Its anti grav effects are proportional to altitude above ground level, so the stuff doesn’t just drift out of a planets gravity well. Nor does it easily pass over high narrow mountains which are tall, but don’t have that much mass compared to flat ground covering the same area.

[Mayabird]

Mod Ninja Kick-ed to proper forum. Please be more careful next time.
[line 2]

[Crossroads Inc.]

Yeah the trouble with thinking 'seriously" about floating Rock ala Escalfowne, is the minuet you do everything falls apart. "Rock"is rather horrible in terms of strength, sure stone is good in buildings but only properly shaped like in a Cathedral. A big rock on the other hand isn't quite as good, especially as some have mentioned given weathering, freezing, etc.

Floating "rock" isn't that bad, but once oyu get into floating "mountains" thats where things reallly iffy.

I will say In Escaflownes defense, they had a reasonable good explanation to how their floating rock was turned into a useful product for making flying machines. I can't remember where I read it, but there was some "Escaflowne technical Manual" that had info on the Guymeflys, Gaia Technology, etc. there was a bit that explained that "Levistone" on its owns barely above neutral buoyant. However if it got cold, the lift went up, and if it got hot, the lift went down. It said someone discovered a coolant which reacted with the rock. Apparently the reason why most Levistone ships have those weird Orang "rings" around them, is its supposed to be bands full of the coolant, which is orange colored.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If the 'breaking' is quick enough, you may get islands that started with some mammals, reptiles, and maybe even fish on them. Or, its possible that small animals can be thrown into the air by storms and land on the islands. These would be very isolated ecologies where you'd get all sorts of crazy evolutionary pressures. Like a thousand mini-australias.

[Patrick Degan]

The main benefit from such a phenomenon would be that wizards, alchemists, and later scientific philosophers of such a world would know directly that there is a levitation substance in nature and seek some way to harness it to enable the construction of flying ships and floating castles.

[Sarevok]

The main benefit from such a phenomenon would be that wizards, alchemists, and later scientific philosophers of such a world would know directly that there is a levitation substance in nature and seek some way to harness it to enable the construction of flying ships and floating castles.

Lets speculate a bit further into the future of such a world when industrial revolution takes place. Minerals extracted from the floating mountains can be harnassed for science and engineering. For instance it can be used to make almost anything levitate. You could see flying aircraft carriers, airships armored like a battleship and armed with 16 inch guns becoming a reality. On the ground regular tanks could be accompanied by repulsor tanks. Helicopters would be competing with scifi like dropshops that can take off and land vertically while carrying a tank. Even infantry could benifit by utlizing hover bikes as fast moving cavalry or recon forces.

[Themightytom]

The main benefit from such a phenomenon would be that wizards, alchemists, and later scientific philosophers of such a world would know directly that there is a levitation substance in nature and seek some way to harness it to enable the construction of flying ships and floating castles.

Lets speculate a bit further into the future of such a world when industrial revolution takes place. Minerals extracted from the floating mountains can be harnassed for science and engineering. For instance it can be used to make almost anything levitate. You could see flying aircraft carriers, airships armored like a battleship and armed with 16 inch guns becoming a reality. On the ground regular tanks could be accompanied by repulsor tanks. Helicopters would be competing with scifi like dropshops that can take off and land vertically while carrying a tank. Even infantry could benifit by utlizing hover bikes as fast moving cavalry or recon forces.

Wouldn't it actually deflect scientific learning? if there's a magical rock that flaots what is the incentive for deeloping helicopters or airplanes, or even using them if you came up with the design?

[Darth Wong]

Wow, I had no idea that such a "flying mountains" fantasy series ever existed. That sounds extraordinarily stupid, and I don't just mean that it doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny: a conclusion so incredibly obvious it doesn't even need to be explained in detail. I mean that it seems extraordinarily retarded even for a childrens' cartoon. Does this idea serve some incredibly important or profound plot point?

[Sarevok]

Wow, I had no idea that such a "flying mountains" fantasy series ever existed. That sounds extraordinarily stupid, and I don't just mean that it doesn't hold up to scientific scrutiny: a conclusion so incredibly obvious it doesn't even need to be explained in detail. I mean that it seems extraordinarily retarded even for a childrens' cartoon. Does this idea serve some incredibly important or profound plot point?

Well I have not read any fantasy stories about flying mountains. However in Camerons upcoming film Avatar the rocks float because they contain a room temperature superconductor that they actually call unobtainium. The rocks occur on the planet Pandora that is orbiting a Jupiter like gas giant with strong magnetic fields. According to the plot the rocks containing unobtainum are somehow magnetized and pulled skyward by the gas giant. How plausible is this I dont know. But unobtonium has other physics defying properties like rendering energy weapons of the corporate marine force landing on Pandora useless. These strange and not understood properties of the rock were the reasons why they travelled all the way across the stars just to dig some rocks.

[Zixinus]

Nobody mentioned the casual winds you get, even when there isn't a storm. Unless you would be able to directly cave in the mountain, any habitation will be likely be literally blown away or made too uncomfortable for mass population.

Water might be solvable with building a reservoir of rainwater, but you won't be able to make the place self-sufficient enough to make a mayor human population for any significant length of time. Unless you have aircraft advanced enough.

[Patrick Degan]

The main benefit from such a phenomenon would be that wizards, alchemists, and later scientific philosophers of such a world would know directly that there is a levitation substance in nature and seek some way to harness it to enable the construction of flying ships and floating castles.

Lets speculate a bit further into the future of such a world when industrial revolution takes place. Minerals extracted from the floating mountains can be harnassed for science and engineering. For instance it can be used to make almost anything levitate. You could see flying aircraft carriers, airships armored like a battleship and armed with 16 inch guns becoming a reality. On the ground regular tanks could be accompanied by repulsor tanks. Helicopters would be competing with scifi like dropshops that can take off and land vertically while carrying a tank. Even infantry could benifit by utlizing hover bikes as fast moving cavalry or recon forces.

Wouldn't it actually deflect scientific learning? if there's a magical rock that flaots what is the incentive for deeloping helicopters or airplanes, or even using them if you came up with the design?

It wouldn't deflect scientific learning but push it in a different direction. You'd still be motivated to discover the exact properties of the levitation mineral, what concentrations are required to lift a given object of a given mass, and how best to utilise this substance in designs for airships. You would not have airplanes or helicopters but a different sort of air vehicle coming from that line of development.

[Zixinus]

Until there is a shortage and people will look for alternative means to fly, one that doesn't require a rare element.

[TheLostVikings]

Lets speculate a bit further into the future of such a world when industrial revolution takes place. Minerals extracted from the floating mountains can be harnessed for science and engineering. For instance it can be used to make almost anything levitate. You could see flying aircraft carriers, airships armored like a battleship and armed with 16 inch guns becoming a reality. On the ground regular tanks could be accompanied by repulsor tanks. Helicopters would be competing with scifi like dropships that can take off and land vertically while carrying a tank. Even infantry could benefit by utilizing hover bikes as fast moving cavalry or recon forces.

Wouldn't it actually deflect scientific learning? if there's a magical rock that floats what is the incentive for developing helicopters or airplanes, or even using them if you came up with the design?

It wouldn't deflect scientific learning but push it in a different direction. You'd still be motivated to discover the exact properties of the levitation mineral, what concentrations are required to lift a given object of a given mass, and how best to utilize this substance in designs for airships. You would not have airplanes or helicopters but a different sort of air vehicle coming from that line of development.

The anime "Last Exile" uses that exact line of thought, resulting in "airships" armed with huge battleship guns and wingless fighter"planes". All powered by refined crystals that are mined from the ground.

[Starglider]

You would not have airplanes or helicopters but a different sort of air vehicle coming from that line of development.

The science of airfoils will still be developed in order to produce efficient propellors, and eventually jet engines. If the levitation effect is really limited to 1-5km, stub wings will be added to research and then military aircraft in order to reach higher altitudes, initially to bypass defences, then to reach higher speeds. I would expect jet aircraft similar in general form to contemporary ones, but with streamlined planforms completely optimised for high-speed high-altitude flight. At low speeds and altitudes the antigravity material will take over and make every aircraft a VTOL.

[Simon_Jester]

To address the original question, I agree that these mountains are practically inaccessible to pre-industrial humans, unless they invent some weird technology based on the antigravity rock itself. Moreover, it sucks to be under one of these things, because there are going to be small rocks falling off the underside on a regular basis.

The main way they'd change an agricultural society is that you'd have a new category of natural disaster: "Oh crap, a flying mountain fell on our village."

[mr friendly guy]

This is similar to Crossgen's Meridian setting (CG was a comic company which dealt with non superhero comics and unfortunately went belly up). Essentially the inhabitants sail between these floating islands the same way we sail along the ocean. Their sky ships don't seem more advanced than our wooden sailing ships. Those who live high above are generally more wealthy than those who live on the ground, that is not all the lands float.

The floating land IIRC is due to some ore which is mined and is used to allow their ships to fly.

[Gilthan]

Lets say that you have a world that is earthlike in most regards save for one rather fantastic element (hence why this is in fantasy), the fact that it has floating mountains. These are fairly stable masses of stone ranging in size from about ten meters across to a few kilometers in length and are irregular in shape, floating at altitutes between 1,000 and 5,000 meters above the immediate surface (water or land, although dropping in altitutude over water).

Cheesy but potentially beautiful scenery.

I loved Nagrand in World of Warcraft.

So there's either magic doing that, or the whole world is a terraformed relic of a past civilization which buried hidden equipment inside the planet and the mountains to sustain magnetic levitation.

This leads to the questions of the thread...
1-How would life adapt to make use of such an Environment?
2-Lets say we have a population of Humans on this planet that has gone under an agricultural revolution adapt to such enviroments (with special emphisis on the colonization of these flying mountains)

That depends what we want the "earthlike" environment to become.

If our planetoid had Titan's 1/7th of a terrestrial gravity, flight would be comparatively easy. On earth, a Great Bussard bird can fly, 2 meters from wingtip to wingtip and 35 pounds weight (world's heaviest contemporary flying bird).

A human who weighed 140 lb on earth would weigh 20 pounds on this planetoid. Icarus can be more than an ancient Greek myth. Strapping a pair of decent wings on allows flight at a relatively primitive tech base, in which case the humans could fly up to floating mountains and glide between them.

If there are nasty megafauna at ground level or enemy armies, the floating mountains might be defensible locations with a great view.

[Starglider]

If our planetoid had Titan's 1/7th of a terrestrial gravity, flight would be comparatively easy.

Titan only manages to retain its atmosphere because it's so cold. At earthlike temperatures, the result would be the same as the moon; the atmosphere would be lost to space after a few million years.

[Gilthan]

If our planetoid had Titan's 1/7th of a terrestrial gravity, flight would be comparatively easy.

Titan only manages to retain its atmosphere because it's so cold. At earthlike temperatures, the result would be the same as the moon; the atmosphere would be lost to space after a few million years.

Consider the amount of fortuitous circumstances involved in having a fantasy world with humans, let alone the floating mountains (requiring either outright magic, unobtainium convenient pseudoscientific minerals, or the world being a terraformed creation of an ancient civilization installing magnetic levitation equipment underground).

In context, I don't think it is relatively much of an additional stretch at all if the planetoid hasn't been at its present temperature or had its present atmosphere for more than a few million years.

Neglecting paraterraforming, only considering conventional terraforming, even earth's moon could hold onto a breathable atmosphere for utterly eons in human terms if anybody had the enormous resources to terraform it, as the solar wind doesn't erode a dense atmosphere nearly as fast as a thin one, and the sun isn't as active now as it was early in the solar system's history.

[Gilthan]

Critical atmospheric mass for a long-lived atmosphere considering both ionization and thermal losses, if earth's moon was to be terraformed:

http://hyperion.cc.uregina.ca/~astro/Moon_mets.pdf

Or there's the route of Star Trek TOS's For the World is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky. A primitive civilization who didn't think they lived on the outside of a spherical world might actually be right then.

[TheLostVikings]

If our planetoid had Titan's 1/7th of a terrestrial gravity, flight would be comparatively easy.

Titan only manages to retain its atmosphere because it's so cold. At earthlike temperatures, the result would be the same as the moon; the atmosphere would be lost to space after a few million years.

Venus has less gravity than Earth, and still manage to hold onto 90 times as much atmosphere... please try again.

[Zixinus]

Venus has less gravity than Earth, and still manage to hold onto 90 times as much atmosphere... please try again.

Since when?

Equatorial Surface Gravity

Metric: 8.87 m/s2
English: 29.1 ft/s2
By Comparison: If you weigh 100 pounds on Earth, you would weigh 91 pounds on Venus.

From here.

Ok, there is a roughly 9% less gravity when compared to Earth, but still, you can't compare it to Titan's 0.14 gravity and the ability of that to retain earth-level atmosphere.

[Starglider]

Ok, there is a roughly 9% less gravity when compared to Earth, but still, you can't compare it to Titan's 0.14 gravity and the ability of that to retain earth-level atmosphere.

Also, Venus only has an atmosphere as thick as it does because it has an extremely high level of outgassing from all the volcanic activity. I'm sure there are some forms of life that could survive a mostly-CO2 atmosphere with high concentrations of toxic (to humans) gasses, but that ecosphere won't look at all earth-like.