Mages in Modern Combat

[SAMAS]

I was wondering how useful various RPG-style magic-users would be in Squad- or Platoon-level combat.

For simplicity's sake, we'll start with two basic forms:

A: The D&D-style Mage, who studies and stores Individual spells every morning, using a mix of vocal, somatic(hand motions), and material components.

B: The Rifts-style, which draws power from an internal or external pool of mana/PPE/Magic Points/etc..., and can cast whichever spell he needs as long as he has the power to do so. Magic is mostly vocal, and may take some time to cast.

C: If you want to explore other types, go ahead.

What spells (or types of spells) would be used?

What kind of gear would they be assigned?

[SAMAS]

Damn it, I thought I posted this in Fantasy. Can we get it moved?

[fgalkin]

Moved.

To answer your question, we need to know just how powerful the mages in question are- even in D&D, there is a lot of variation in power levels. Are they the type that can throw fireballs, or the type that can flood an entire continent with fire?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Samuel]

What tech level are we talking? WIth guns- heck, crossbows, I don't see them surviving very long.

[Ghost Rider]

As stated, give something to quantify against.

Simply throwing up an idea and pressing submit makes for a poor topic and itchy locking finger.

[lance]

I am assuming the various magics are as they are roughly in there respective systems

Dungions and Dragon magic could be useful, I don't see most of it being useful in a straight up fight on the lower scale. I mainly believe it is going to be useful if it can be used to supplement the armed forces as opposed to standing out in the open waiving a wand around.

The utility spells could easily be a godsend, take invisibility, a third level specialist can cast it 4 times easily. Imagine an infiltration team of special forces that get invisibility cast on them, lets say it only lasts for an 50 minutes, you got 4 people that can go deeper than they could before and have near complete surprise should it get violent. Likely the mage would either be in the rear line which would limit his ability some what, or an exceptionally trained soldier that is both special forces and a mage.

I don't know about most combat spells as I don't know what ranges combat takes place at normally, also most of what they can do a machine could do faster, but Apocalypse from sky with teleport is close to a nuke, 10 mile radius per level minimum caster of 17. Granted it has a decent chance of killing its caster with 18 points of constitution drain.
How well would a weapon with 800 foot range with a 20 foot radius burst of flame work?

One thing that I just thought of is the eternal wands from Ebberon, any person can use them to cast the spell, so the mages could be a manufacturing center for supply the troops with wands of invisibility, or fireball.

Control weather can cause a tornado I'm sure that can screw with an air force a bit.

[Zixinus]

If we are talking about putting one kind of mage to addition to a full squad, we have something that is as hard-hitting as an artillery shell.

Of course, there are allot of variables, but even a single useful spell can augment any squad.

A type: this would make squads more hard hitting when performing specific missions, but can be royally screwed if they have to improvise.

B type: Such a person would be more highly valued than a medic, especially if healing spells are available. Infrantry combat will be revolutionised, possibly other types of military combat.

As a general rule, I would outfit mages with full-body armour and give them a pistol (plus standard gear), assuming they carry their own stuff as well. They are vital enough that they should wear full body armour at all times and since they don't have to carry that much else, that might be not that much of a problem. Mages must be always guarded when performing any roles and as such, armour-piercing pistol rounds are more than enough. Perhaps a spare assoult rifle or helping out the machine gunner can also be done if the mage cannot do more spells.

I don't know about most combat spells as I don't know what ranges combat takes place at normally, also most of what they can do a machine could do faster,

If this is of any help, modern assault rifles are to be able to accurately hit a target from 300 metres as that is the typical range a firefight happens. Combat shotguns have ranges of 50-70 metres and pistols have to be accurate up to 25 metres.
Assuming open fields of course. With urban combat, ranges are good enough if they can hit someone across the street because that's how far typically it has to show.

[Base Delta Zero]

Funnily enough, I'm actually running a 'D&D' campaign set in modern times (well, a parallel world with modern/near future technology)...

the type that can flood an entire continent with fire?

In order to do this, they'd need to be in the near-hundreds level-wise, which is... rare, to say the least.

As a general rule, I would outfit mages with full-body armour and give them a pistol (plus standard gear), assuming they carry their own stuff as well. They are vital enough that they should wear full body armour at all times and since they don't have to carry that much else, that might be not that much of a problem. Mages must be always guarded when performing any roles and as such, armour-piercing pistol rounds are more than enough. Perhaps a spare assoult rifle or helping out the machine gunner can also be done if the mage cannot do more spells.

I don't know about RIFTS, but D&D Mages can't actually wear armor without their spells sporadically failing.

All in all, I'd say your typical mage is more than capable of holding his/her own in combat... for around a minute. Their major problem is endurance, plus the fact they can't wear any decent armor. Ridiculous D20 Modern statistics notwithstanding, a high-level mage is an extremely formidable force, however. They have relatively poor range to take on anything but infantry though.

[Crazedwraith]

You would use mages as a replacement or addition to infantry in direct combat. You'd load them up with healing spells and have them keep the real troops nice and alive.

[Formless]

You fools need more info on DnD.

Fortunately, I have my books on hand.

I'm using 3.5 rules, since I don't believe in 4'th editions.

First, ranges:

This depends both on the power of the mage and the spell. It also depends on the school of magic, and most of the "bang, you're dead" type of combat spells are of the evoction school. Therefore, most of the spells I will study are evoction spells, for those who are curious. (BTW, I have no idea how to spell that word, sorry)

The most basic damage dealing combat spell is Magic Missile at first level. Magic missle, for those not in the know, is a bolt (or bolts) of pure magic "force" energy that homes in on its target, with no chance of a saving throw, i.e. it never misses. It has a range qualifier of medium, which IIRC, is defined by the range of a bow in the game. More importantly, it also attaches a number and an advancement for more powerful casters: 100 feet at first level, climbing at a rate of 10 feet every level. Level is an abstract game rules type concept, but it can give us a decent estimate of the average range for the average mage: I estimate (but could be wrong) that fifth level is average for mages, (judging partially by the proliferation of Fireballs which is obtained at that level, but also by other fiddelly game fluff I won't get into right now). therefore, the average mage can fire this spell at 150 feet. And never miss. That is not bad, and that is only a first level spell. A shotgun is good out to about that range, IIRC.

Granted, never miss does not translate into always kills, as the spells damage is limited, and there are other force effects and defensive spells that specifically negate its effects.

Next Scorching Ray at second level. (You might be interested to note that many damaging effects in DnD spells come from heat and flame, although it is rare to see a spell that will actually cause things to ignite, according to the rules.) This spell fires rays of heat or fire that require the caster to hit with a touch attack, meaning that this spell can actually miss. Granted, touch attacks ignore armor in DnD, so they still hit more often then other forms of attack. The spell itself has a qualitative range of close, which roughly means throwing distance. The numerical value given is 25 feet + 5 feet every 2 levels, leading to 30 feet at fifth level. Frankely, in modern warfare this kind of range is shit, even if it can ignore armor. it also has the ability to fire multiple rays at once at higher levels, though, so the spell has some redeeming factors.

Now for the fun ones; fireball and lightning bolt, the spells that gave wizards their reputation as miniature artillary. Sir Nitram had a more conclusive analysis of Lightning bolts damaging effects based upon the fluff.

Range-wise, we will start with fireball. It has a qualitative range of Long, related to the range of a longbow. Numerically, it has a range of 400 feet + 40 feet every level, although the spell actually stops and explodes wherever the caster indicates within that range. Since you don't get this spell until fifth level, which I am assuming to be average level for a mage, we'll say 400 feet. Pretty good, you can get people out to rifle ranges with that one.

Lightning bolt has a set range of 120 feet. It does not grow with the casters level. This is significantly lower than for fireball (and is one reason fireball is so damn powerful). Of course, everything for 120 feet is in danger from this one, as it does not stop at the first target on its path.

Both of these spells are subjected to saving throws, so they are not garonteed hits exactly.

Higher level spells generally have similar ranges to the ones stated here, but may be more powerful or exotic in the way they deal damage, like dealing cold damage. No joke.

damage:

This is harder to quantify, but we can make comparisons based upon the rules. Magic Missile in game terms deals 2-5 points of damage. By comparison, the average hand gun in D20 Modern deals 2-12 points of damage, and the average rifle or shotgun deals 2-16 points (and sometime 2-20 points). This means that a handgun will, on average, do more damage to the target when it hits, and a rifle almost certainly so. However, the damage for Magic missile is per missile. The spell has the ability to fire multiple missiles at once at one or more targets at once. At fifth level, a caster can throw three of the things down range at the same time. If he focuses on one target, he will deal 6-15 points of damage, less potentially then a rifle, but more on average. Plus, it never misses! Imagine if you know that you have multiple targets targets hiding in buildings around you. Your mage can hurt them all with impunity, as long as he knows where they are.

Healing spells: Nope. Not the domain of Wizards and Sorcerers. All the healing spells in the game are Cleric, Palidin, and Druid spells. So unless you want to field holy men (and you might have a squad pastor, admittedly), you are going to have to rely on good old medicine and field hospitals.

Defensive spells:

Some of these have pretty fantastic properties. They actually have a whole school devoted to them: Abdjuration.

First level has two main ones: Mage Armor and Shield. Mage Armor grants a subject touched (possibly the caster) an invisable body armor made of magic Force. The increase to armor is significant (+4, game wise) and has no weight, meaning it does not slow the subject down and does not impede a spellcasters spells. As an aside, this might be an interesting one for people defending political leaders and other people afraid of assasination.

Shield creates a tower shield sized disk of force that essentially has similar properties to Mage Armor, but in a different form. It can apparently block Magic Missiles and incorpreal attacks. The big difference, I guess, is that it is directional rather than form fitting.

Second level has the most impressive one: Protection from Arrows/Bullets (in D20 Modern). The subject touched simply ignores a limited amount of damage (50 points at fifth level). Highly useful in modern combat. It does not protect against higher momentum attacks (getting punched in the face) or blades, however.

Third level does not have any physically defending spells, but it does have Dispel Magic for defending against whatever magic your opponent can throw back at you.

But it does not stop there. Far from it! there is a whole world of spells to choose from, from eight different schools of magic. Divination and Illusion spells give a whole new dimension to battlefield intelligence. Conjuration can give bonuses to mobility, summon reinforcements at a moments notice, and has a few of its own "Bang, you're dead" type spells. Enchantment speaks for itself, as it gives you power over the human brain. And Transmutation spells let you interact with your environment in novel ways, although it is kind of hard to define just what this school is all about. And of course, there is necromancy for those sick fucks that like psychological warfare or.. well... zombies. That speaks for itself.

Spellcasters are a bit more problematic in terms of fielding, however. Wizards apparently require high standards of education to get good, and I mean education in the academic sense at that. This is used as the rational for why they do not get weapon proficiencies in DnD unless the player wants to spend a feat just for that goal. So arming them with a sidearm means more training, and more time taken away from making themselves a better spellcaster. Of course, for the utility of magical tools and spells, it may be worth the effort. Sorcerers on the other hand are a little more attractive because they can cast more spells in a day, and can do it naturally untrained. Unfortunatly, they don't learn many new tricks like a Wizard can, since wizards can cast whatver the fuck they want as long as they are powerful enough, understand the mechanism, and didn't waste their time specializing in one school of magic to the exclusion of others. Also, Sorcerers are born, not made. they occur naturally in the population at a certain rate, but Wizards are simply a matter of study and understanding, like a scientist.

Has anyone considered Magic the Gathering on this one? It too has a "anyone can cast magic if trained" scenario, from what i remember of the books, but it was a purely mental exercise, requireing the hands only for channeling the end spell, and only in some cases. Plus, unlike DnD mages, the same style of magic is used to cast Clerical type magic, just using a different form of Mana. Could very easily be adapted to modern warfare, if you could ever get calcs for the universe (using the book series, assume)

[Ghost Rider]

And the glorious penultimate question I ask constantly, but always wonder.

So anyone going to quantify? Because anyboy can go and look up a D&D book. But to actually give a real tested value to such? Last time was very short and it took a moderator who loved the material to have to stay the course for more then a few posts.

[Stark]

Intel and mind control are relative important but safe roles for a magic user. Any magic user with abilities in these areas (fuck, even Harry goddamn Potter) could defeat entire armies using simply info-gathering and mind control; those who specialise in these areas (like Nightwatch guys) are even more useful and virtually unstoppable without other magic (unlike lol fire which is less useful).

Mages in RPGs usually have abilities heavily slanted towards the style of play encouraged, but even DnD has war-winning utility spells.

[Formless]

I'll try, but when people aren't even sure of the ranges involved, the books are going to have to come out.

This might take a while. There is just so damn many spells!

Anyway...

[Xon]

This is harder to quantify, but we can make comparisons based upon the rules. Magic Missile in game terms deals 2-5 points of damage. By comparison, the average hand gun in D20 Modern deals 2-12 points of damage, and the average rifle or shotgun deals 2-16 points (and sometime 2-20 points).

D20 Modern damage values make no sense, and using them isn't a good idea. At the very very low end some values might work, but the system just doesn't scale at all. The perfect example is a nuke does less damage than the equivelent amount of sticks of dynamite stacked together. That an a stick of dynamite doesnt insta-gib humans at close range.

[Samuel]

Mages are going to always be expensive and rarer than comparitive cannon fodder (Gets 3.5 out...). First off, half of the human population can't do magic. This isn't only idiots- mages need intelligence which is memorization ability, not other skills. In addition, it requires a large amount of training. Lets look at the age table.

Humans start at 15 and wizard require 2d6 added on. Which means that it takes an average of 6.5 years to become a mage... except that many individuals study from childhood in addition to this. And this is all entirely on the study of magic!

Mages will NOT be common enough to be attached to squads.

[Formless]

D20 Modern damage values make no sense, and using them isn't a good idea. At the very very low end some values might work, but the system just doesn't scale at all. The perfect example is a nuke does less damage than the equivelent amount of sticks of dynamite stacked together. That an a stick of dynamite doesnt insta-gib humans at close range.

True, but like you said, at low end values, it tends to be a fairer comparison to reality. I figure they are likely to get sidearms right, at least. And conveniently, Magic Missile is transcribed word for word into D20 Modern from DnD, so there are no rules contradictions in the way. So to say that a magic missile does on average less then half the damage to the human body that a pistol would deal sounds fair. I am more worried that Hp/damage points in these games cannot be translated into energy values because damaging the human body does not take very much energy at all: case in point, bladed weapons don't need to transfer as much energy into a human to damage something vital enough.

[Formless]

Mages are going to always be expensive and rarer than comparitive cannon fodder (Gets 3.5 out...). First off, half of the human population can't do magic. This isn't only idiots- mages need intelligence which is memorization ability, not other skills. In addition, it requires a large amount of training. Lets look at the age table.

Humans start at 15 and wizard require 2d6 added on. Which means that it takes an average of 6.5 years to become a mage... except that many individuals study from childhood in addition to this. And this is all entirely on the study of magic!

Mages will NOT be common enough to be attached to squads.

You are missing a few factors that changes the game in a modern setting. First off, intelligence is considered essential to good spellcasting, but as long as a character has at least average intelligence, the spells they cast will work properly. And for some spells, it may not matter so much. Thus, as long as an individual is interested enough, they can at least try their hand at the craft.

Further, DnD is set in an at least pseudo-medieval setting where education is NOT widespread. You realize that we start teaching our children skills from an early age that in the medieval world were rare even among the nobility like reading, writing, math, some science, etc? To them, we must seem positively Einsteinian! Thus, it is not inconcievable that in a world where modern society, technology, and magic all progressed into something recognizable together, teaching about magic would be standard practice just like teaching science is. Finding people who follow through for long enough might be, but armies could conceivably have their own training centers for solder-mages who only learn the essentials for slinging fireballs and other tactically effective spells. In fact, if spells are found to be an effective enough weapon, then those armies that can't field mages would likely be fucked by armies that can.

Basically, remember that civilization is all about freeing people up to specialize, and Wizards are specialists, after all. As society has progressed in the real world, we have seen more and more specialization as things like farming and industry got more and more streamlined. In any setting where magic is in a modern setting, more people will be free to specialize as wizards.

[Samuel]

You are missing a few factors that changes the game in a modern setting. First off, intelligence is considered essential to good spellcasting, but as long as a character has at least average intelligence, the spells they cast will work properly. And for some spells, it may not matter so much. Thus, as long as an individual is interested enough, they can at least try their hand at the craft.

Nope- an individual with an intellgience of 10 can't learn any spells past level 0.

Further, DnD is set in an at least pseudo-medieval setting where education is NOT widespread. You realize that we start teaching our children skills from an early age that in the medieval world were rare even among the nobility like reading, writing, math, some science, etc?

Unless they are studying to be something like a preist, a monk or a wizard, in many cases where they probably start as children. Then modern education isn't going to help much- in fact it is going to hurt. Sure, you did the asics, saving you 2 years- 8 more to go!

Thus, it is not inconcievable that in a world where modern society, technology, and magic all progressed into something recognizable together, teaching about magic would be standard practice just like teaching science is.

Or it could be like surgery where you need 12 more years to be both good and get a job.

Finding people who follow through for long enough might be, but armies could conceivably have their own training centers for solder-mages who only learn the essentials for slinging fireballs and other tactically effective spells.

They are called battle-mages. They still take a long time.

In fact, if spells are found to be an effective enough weapon, then those armies that can't field mages would likely be fucked by armies that can.

Because no one in the world uses anti magical devices?

Basically, remember that civilization is all about freeing people up to specialize, and Wizards are specialists, after all. As society has progressed in the real world, we have seen more and more specialization as things like farming and industry got more and more streamlined. In any setting where magic is in a modern setting, more people will be free to specialize as wizards.

Mages are going to always be expensive and rarer than comparitive cannon fodder (Gets 3.5 out...). First off, half of the human population can't do magic. This isn't only idiots- mages need intelligence which is memorization ability, not other skills. In addition, it requires a large amount of training. Lets look at the age table.

Humans start at 15 and wizard require 2d6 added on. Which means that it takes an average of 6.5 years to become a mage... except that many individuals study from childhood in addition to this. And this is all entirely on the study of magic!

Mages will NOT be common enough to be attached to squads.

You are missing a few factors that changes the game in a modern setting. First off, intelligence is considered essential to good spellcasting, but as long as a character has at least average intelligence, the spells they cast will work properly. And for some spells, it may not matter so much. Thus, as long as an individual is interested enough, they can at least try their hand at the craft.

Further, DnD is set in an at least pseudo-medieval setting where education is NOT widespread. You realize that we start teaching our children skills from an early age that in the medieval world were rare even among the nobility like reading, writing, math, some science, etc? To them, we must seem positively Einsteinian! Thus, it is not inconcievable that in a world where modern society, technology, and magic all progressed into something recognizable together, teaching about magic would be standard practice just like teaching science is. Finding people who follow through for long enough might be, but armies could conceivably have their own training centers for solder-mages who only learn the essentials for slinging fireballs and other tactically effective spells. In fact, if spells are found to be an effective enough weapon, then those armies that can't field mages would likely be fucked by armies that can.

Basically, remember that civilization is all about freeing people up to specialize, and Wizards are specialists, after all. As society has progressed in the real world, we have seen more and more specialization as things like farming and industry got more and more streamlined. In any setting where magic is in a modern setting, more people will be free to specialize as wizards.

Except we need intelligent people for other fields too. And you are assuming that the D&D worlds are not optomized to max out mages... even though they seem to be made to do so.

Here, we will use the manual (DM, page 139) to give numbers. Assume all rolls are maximum and change 25000 or more to 50000 and we get a mage ration of 3.567% of the population. The number who are high enough to cast level 3 spells is .504% of the population.

These numbers are good... but only valid for the extremely magic satured society. In which case you can't conscript the mages because you need them to keep everything running. In the least magic saturated society (aka people being taken out to work in technical fields) the rations drop to 1.016% and .248% respectively.

I'll get to the fun calculations tomorrow.

[Xon]

True, but like you said, at low end values, it tends to be a fairer comparison to reality. I figure they are likely to get sidearms right, at least.

By low end I was thinking like knives and other weponary which is just out a pre-gunpowerder medieval setting. The D20 modern ruleset just doesn't work well with highly energetic events, or events with shaped energy delivery. Probably because it is a damn complex subject.

And conveniently, Magic Missile is transcribed word for word into D20 Modern from DnD, so there are no rules contradictions in the way. So to say that a magic missile does on average less then half the damage to the human body that a pistol would deal sounds fair.

"a pistol" is actually a meaningless term, as it covers several hundred different weapons and posible ammo types with vastly different damaging potentials.

I am more worried that Hp/damage points in these games cannot be translated into energy values because damaging the human body does not take very much energy at all: case in point, bladed weapons don't need to transfer as much energy into a human to damage something vital enough.

The Hp/damage system just doesnt translate into energy values or hitting vital organs. The hp system is designed to abstract character's ability to avoid damage, hence why there is no degradation of ability between being on 1% health to 100%.

Nor do the hit/miss system used in attacks either, modern firearms are amazingly accurate compared to bow and arrow or even melee weapons.

[Formless]

Nope- an individual with an intellgience of 10 can't learn any spells past level 0.

Checking my books, and... erk. You are correct. Every spell of every level requires a caster of intelligence 10 + spell level.

Of course, that also means that an intelligence 13 individual can cast up to third level spells, where most of the good combat spells come into play.

Unless they are studying to be something like a preist, a monk or a wizard, in many cases where they probably start as children. Then modern education isn't going to help much- in fact it is going to hurt. Sure, you did the asics, saving you 2 years- 8 more to go!

But that education is going to be more common in the first place. Do you dispute that? More people will be able to afford it, and more people will likely pursue arcane study.

Or it could be like surgery where you need 12 more years to be both good and get a job.

Well when you put it that way, how many surgouns do armies field all the time, even back in the day? Its essential, even considering the lower standards of field hospitals, that someone does the job. Same with magic, an army must either exploit this weapon, or they will get raped by those who do.

They are called battle-mages. They still take a long time.

Long time, but fielded nevertheless. I mean, the army fields tons of engineers and they take a lot of training, but they still do it.

Because no one in the world uses anti magical devices?

Anti-magic devices require mages to make anti-magic devices. Try again.

Except we need intelligent people for other fields too. And you are assuming that the D&D worlds are not optomized to max out mages... even though they seem to be made to do so.

Here, we will use the manual (DM, page 139) to give numbers. Assume all rolls are maximum and change 25000 or more to 50000 and we get a mage ration of 3.567% of the population. The number who are high enough to cast level 3 spells is .504% of the population.

These numbers are good... but only valid for the extremely magic satured society. In which case you can't conscript the mages because you need them to keep everything running. In the least magic saturated society (aka people being taken out to work in technical fields) the rations drop to 1.016% and .248% respectively.

I'll get to the fun calculations tomorrow.

NO, they would NOT be needed to keep society running, what gave you that idea? The OP assumed modern, industrialized conditions, which means that society will keep running without some of their magically inclined population around.

You also do not take into account Sorcerers, which seem to occur naturally in the population. True, they are made out to be a rarity, but it does inflate your numbers a little bit. And it helps that Sorcerer spellcasting is based off the Charisma statistic, not the intelligence one, so a sorcerer can be a total dumbshit and still cast effectively.

Also, what do we take as real world statistics on intelligence, and how do we correlate that to the number of people who would be potential spellcasters according to DnD? Do we go by the IQ test, which has to be adjusted every so often due to a seemingly natural tendency to rise over time?

[Formless]

By low end I was thinking like knives and other weponary which is just out a pre-gunpowerder medieval setting. The D20 modern ruleset just doesn't work well with highly energetic events, or events with shaped energy delivery. Probably because it is a damn complex subject.

Complex indeed. Again though, firearms, not shaped charges. Either way, I still don't have any other good comparison to make, and this seems like a good place to start, at least.

"a pistol" is actually a meaningless term, as it covers several hundred different weapons and posible ammo types with vastly different damaging potentials.

Well, among a wide variety of rounds and guns, this was the average number I got. Perhaps it is more an issue with the source material I have to draw upon, as you said.

The Hp/damage system just doesnt translate into energy values or hitting vital organs. The hp system is designed to abstract character's ability to avoid damage, hence why there is no degradation of ability between being on 1% health to 100%.

Nor do the hit/miss system used in attacks either, modern firearms are amazingly accurate compared to bow and arrow or even melee weapons.

I am well aware of all of that, thank you. That would be why I said it will be difficult to derive energy values for some of these things when all I have is a game related abstraction.

[loomer]

War Mages would be a pretty decent addition to most 3rd World armies. I can also see Somalian pirates loving them.

What seperates a War mage from the regular DnD variety? Scale and training. A War mage needs several more years of training (with exceptions), but in turn can cast spells that completely blanket battlefields in fire. (Scale here refers to the level of the spell, since I'm too lazy to phrase it better)

Let's take 'feed the many'. For ten minutes of effort, a magic scale 4 cleric can feed hundreds of people for a day. This scales upwards (and best of all, a cleric can also wear armour...) with an extra hundred people a level. In a real situation, it'd likely be more in the area of most casting odder numbers that aren't neat increments. Either way, it definitely helps with logistics if you don't need to transport as much food.

Burned to Bare Rock is another good one, the War version of the fireball spell. It has a 60 foot radius, and if you add the widen spell feat to that matter, you have a fireball of 120 foot radius. Base range is 400, you must be scale 4 to cast it. Same damage as Fireball, just a larger scale (and takes a minute to cast).

And why bother with magic missile? The 2nd scale spell Force Missile Storm targets 25 creatures a level, with a range of 400 feet+40 feet a level. The creatures must be in a 60 foot radius of each other, but this still allows even low level mages to pepper entire squads with guaranteed hits.

There are plenty more, too. And, if you give a sorceror or wizard the Battle Caster feat, they no longer suffer the armour penalty. So given enough time to train, you can have general utility mages in full body armour deployed safely. (only for warlocks and other classes that can wear light arnour, technically).

[Xon]

Complex indeed. Again though, firearms, not shaped charges. Either way, I still don't have any other good comparison to make, and this seems like a good place to start, at least.

Armor piercing, explosive rounds, etc are quite common for military firearms, and are outfitted as required for missions.

Nor does the ruleset actually represent the stupid increase in 'stopping power' of various pistols and rifles. For example a .22 rifle can deliver something like 150-200 joules or some 7.92mm rifles delivering almost 4 kilojoules. Never mind when you hit anti-material rifles or vehicle mounted weapons.

Then there is artillery which is a major part of modern battlefields.

I am well aware of all of that, thank you. That would be why I said it will be difficult to derive energy values for some of these things when all I have is a game related abstraction.

You need to use fluff which describes discrete events to determine what is happening, the fluff text describing most of the ruleset is quite worthless due to hyperbole and needing to conform to gameplay mechanics.

[Formless]

And why bother with magic missile? The 2nd scale spell Force Missile Storm targets 25 creatures a level, with a range of 400 feet+40 feet a level. The creatures must be in a 60 foot radius of each other, but this still allows even low level mages to pepper entire squads with guaranteed hits.

I don't think we are using the same game here. By DnD standards, the spell you just quoted is sheer wank that should be several levels higher. I can name a third level spell named Chain Missile that fires magic missiles in a similar fashion to what you are describing, but it would only fire about three (IIRC) missiles if you are a tenth level caster. Magic Missile is a simple, low level spell that many mages know and that has extreme utility due to there being very few things that can defend against it, thus making it useful against most opponents, even at high levels.

If that is the same game as DnD, that just has to be a prestige class. Otherwise, what the fuck were the designers thinking? 25 targets per level my pink ass...

Armor piercing, explosive rounds, etc are quite common for military firearms, and are outfitted as required for missions.

Nor does the ruleset actually represent the stupid increase in 'stopping power' of various pistols and rifles. For example a .22 rifle can deliver something like 150-200 joules or some 7.92mm rifles delivering almost 4 kilojoules. Never mind when you hit anti-material rifles or vehicle mounted weapons.

Then there is artillery which is a major part of modern battlefields.

Yeah, the list I was going off actually was comprised mostly of civilian weapons, since I guess the designers expected players would be more likely to use that kind of weapon.

You need to use fluff which describes discrete events to determine what is happening, the fluff text describing most of the ruleset is quite worthless due to hyperbole and needing to conform to gameplay mechanics.

The problem is even finding good fluff in the first place. The standard spells in the players handbook carry only a basic description, and many do not give much in the way of detail or example. Actually, a better book in this regard is the Spell Compendium which added a short scene description to every spell entry, and was chock full of artwork. Not the most useful either, since it often neglected to tell you what would happen down the range, but it is still better then the PH.

Fireball I can do, though. It specifically mentions being able to melt soft metals, which should give a good idea of temperatures involved.

[loomer]

Same game as DnD. Not a prestige class, an entirely new feat based magic type - and to be fair, simply getting that spell requires you to burn two feats and be a 3rd level spellcaster. Admittedly, it is pretty damn wank.

Said feats are great fortitude and iron will.