A New Joker and...

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Post by Dark Hellion » 2008-07-24 01:58am

I am not sure why people think Bane can't work. Come to Bettendorf, IA sometime, there are dozens of former athlete roidheads who are huge, aggressive and like to get into fights. Some are petty criminals, some are actually skilled fighters. The idea that some roidhead buys some drugs online that are a bit better than his usual, rages out, and goes on some spree would be a great distraction from the main villain. Batman would have to deal with some criminal who is really just doing it for himself because no one can stop him. Bats would get beat around a bit, and never get to catch him because he's on the run too. All the while the main villain can be doing subtle things for a masterplot that would threaten the city. You don't have to do any complex psychology, perhaps the point would be that he isn't a psychologically complex character, he is simple but this simplicity gives bats no leverage and Bane is going to actually try to kill Batman when he gets the chance. Bats has faced a bunch of characters who are psychologically complex but he can beat the shit out of. Why not reverse the situation, someone who beats the fuck outta batman, because he can?
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Post by Havok » 2008-07-24 02:05am

Why do that to Bane? He can already beat the shit out of Bats AND he is really fucking smart. No sense in dumbing him down.
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Post by Dark Hellion » 2008-07-24 02:37am

Where did I suggest dumbing him down? He's just not some psychologically broken villain but a dude who does what he wants because he is smart enough and powerful enough to do it. Most Roidheads I have met are actually quite intelligent. Stupid people don't understand how to do roids enough to get good results, but being smart doesn't mean you can't rage out, or perform criminal, even stupidly criminal activities.

I am just suggesting that Bane reminds me of many of the UFC washouts I have met at Militich's gym, so saying he doesn't fit into the world of Nolan's Batman because of realism issues is a non-issue.
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Post by The Yosemite Bear » 2008-07-24 12:18pm

no, Bane is supposed to be Bruce Wayne and Doc Savage's evil drug using counterpart. Though Savage already has John Sunlight for that job, but in digression Bane really is a pisstake at Doc Savage, just like his flunkies Trog, Zombie and Bird are three of Doc's henchmen.
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Post by Solauren » 2008-07-24 01:00pm

Talia shows up with a 'reformed' League of Shadows. They're goal isn't to destroy Gotham, but take it over from the inside and reform it, via force, if need be.

Catwoman is a socialite that used to work with them, but Batman gave her hope. However, they ruined her financially, and has turned to Cat-burglary as a means to support herself until she can get back her stolen family wealth and take down the League of Shadows.

We end up treated to a Talia - Selene cat-fight (pun intended), and Batman again faced with a hard choice, or two or three.

He doesn't have to fall in love with either of them in this scenario. Save that for the next movie.

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Post by Battlehymn Republic » 2008-07-24 01:12pm

As far as allies go, I guess the Huntress is out of the question. It'd be awesome if Hitman made a subtle appearance, though.

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Post by The Wench » 2008-07-24 01:24pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:As far as allies go, I guess the Huntress is out of the question. It'd be awesome if Hitman made a subtle appearance, though.
Actually, I think Huntress might be kinda' cool. They've established Bats has copycats, so why not introduce an ally that isn't quite a copycat, but he doesn't deter her either...?
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Post by Havok » 2008-07-24 02:03pm

Solauren wrote:Talia shows up with a 'reformed' League of Shadows. They're goal isn't to destroy Gotham, but take it over from the inside and reform it, via force, if need be.

Catwoman is a socialite that used to work with them, but Batman gave her hope. However, they ruined her financially, and has turned to Cat-burglary as a means to support herself until she can get back her stolen family wealth and take down the League of Shadows.

We end up treated to a Talia - Selene cat-fight (pun intended), and Batman again faced with a hard choice, or two or three.

He doesn't have to fall in love with either of them in this scenario. Save that for the next movie.
Not a bad idea, except that Gotham is already on the way to reform, based on Batman and Dent's work and sacrifices.
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Post by JME2 » 2008-07-24 04:17pm

havokeff wrote:
Solauren wrote:Talia shows up with a 'reformed' League of Shadows. They're goal isn't to destroy Gotham, but take it over from the inside and reform it, via force, if need be.

Catwoman is a socialite that used to work with them, but Batman gave her hope. However, they ruined her financially, and has turned to Cat-burglary as a means to support herself until she can get back her stolen family wealth and take down the League of Shadows.

We end up treated to a Talia - Selene cat-fight (pun intended), and Batman again faced with a hard choice, or two or three.

He doesn't have to fall in love with either of them in this scenario. Save that for the next movie.
Not a bad idea, except that Gotham is already on the way to reform, based on Batman and Dent's work and sacrifices.
Den'ts victories and sacrifices are intact. But with the public at large believing that Bats is a murderer, no telling what that will do to the city's morale.

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Post by Havok » 2008-07-24 05:10pm

JME2 wrote:
havokeff wrote:
Solauren wrote:Talia shows up with a 'reformed' League of Shadows. They're goal isn't to destroy Gotham, but take it over from the inside and reform it, via force, if need be.

Catwoman is a socialite that used to work with them, but Batman gave her hope. However, they ruined her financially, and has turned to Cat-burglary as a means to support herself until she can get back her stolen family wealth and take down the League of Shadows.

We end up treated to a Talia - Selene cat-fight (pun intended), and Batman again faced with a hard choice, or two or three.

He doesn't have to fall in love with either of them in this scenario. Save that for the next movie.
Not a bad idea, except that Gotham is already on the way to reform, based on Batman and Dent's work and sacrifices.
Den'ts victories and sacrifices are intact. But with the public at large believing that Bats is a murderer, no telling what that will do to the city's morale.
I don't think much. The movie pretty much hits you over the head with the theme that regular people and civil servants are who need to be the heroes of Gotham. Batman's role now is to keep the city united by making him the villain.
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Post by Pulp Hero » 2008-07-24 07:35pm

Battlehymn Republic wrote:As far as allies go, I guess the Huntress is out of the question. It'd be awesome if Hitman made a subtle appearance, though.
You mean Deadshot? Or is there another character?
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Post by Battlehymn Republic » 2008-07-24 07:44pm

I'm talking about Tommy Monaghan.

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Post by NeoGoomba » 2008-07-24 07:56pm

Why not have Bane be the avenging champion of the League of Shadows, with Talia issuing the orders? You have a villain in Bane who can counter Batman both in intelligence and physical prowess, and a villain in Talia who would be more than capable of challenging Bruce Wayne economically and politically.
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Post by Ender » 2008-07-24 09:59pm

Going by most responses here, what you all would be happy with is if Joel Schumacker came back to produce and direct the next one, having Ras (Liam Neeson) back as the new Mr Freeze (he is in a freeze suit due to the microwave damage), where Batman must deal with him and Catwoman's (Lindsay Lohan) plan to freeze the trapeze performers in Gotham. Fortunately, Batman teams up with a survivor to crack the case, and young Dick Grayson (Shia LaBeouf) comes along for the final battle. And a good thing he does, because it turns out "Catwoman" is actually Clayface (voiced by Roy Scheider). Cue big CGI final battle! Final scene Superman invites them to the Justice League, just like what happened in Incredible Hulk. Throw in some Ice/Cold puns, some CGI monkeys, and a sound track by whoever won American Idol, and you are set to jet, ready to rock and roll. Oh, and Venom. Needs more Venom. Can't go wrong with Topher Grace.





And since I am sure there will be a call to do better then the dreck being spewed, here it is.

In the aftermath of TDK, organized crime in Gotham has been pretty much destroyed. Most of the middleman types are still incarcerated, family funds have dried up and you only have a couple of groups in the game at all. The crime level has remained pretty static, but the crimes are generally committed by Freaks. I'm thinking some of the low key, non supernatural villains in very bit roles. Firefly is a sociopath with a torch fetish who likes wreaking havoc in the slums, the Ventriloquist is a schizo who claims that his doll only talks to him, and considers himself a self-styled gangster much to the actual mafia's disgust, basically lunatics with gimmicks. There's a bit of a cold war going on between them and the old school gangsters.

Enter Roman Sionis, the last scion of one of the less prominent crime families. He thinks the only way to survive is to ally with and then build a new crime empire on the backs of the freaks who generally don't have a mind for long term organization and planning. He still despises them as uncivilized bastards, but he's willing to work with them. We could have a Godfather, Goodfellas esque montage of him murdering his way to the top of the Gotham mafia's food chain before trying to bridge the gap with the freaks. Unknown to many people in his own empire, he's been infiltrating freak society for some time now as the Black Mask, posing as his alter ego's own enforcer. He either uses an actual mask or a thick, oily, claylike face paint and a skull cap to disguise himself. He meets with the freaks individually or in small groups as a mafia liaison to give them tips as to particularly juicy heist possibilities, and takes a large cut of the profits to help rebuild the crime family.

Now, he knows that Batman could catch most of these idiots pretty easily, so he needs someone to play distraction. There is a washed up old game show host living in the Gotham slums going by the name of E. Nygma who, ten years back used to be a big pop culture craze on television but is now relegated to fuck if I know, freelance crossword puzzle or sudoku writing for various magazines and papers. He offers Nygma a deal that if he can keep Bats busy with riddles about false crimes, dozens of bad leads and red herrings, he'll receive enough money to live comfortably forever. Nygma is pretty hesitant at first, having never committed a crime before, but eventually comes to see the whole situation as a way back to fame as the man who stumped Batman.

There you go, two prominent villains and some disposable baddies that will make for a couple of fun fights. Overall themes continue previous work, stepping up from "Vengeance vs Justice" and "Prgamatic Justice vs Ideal Justice" to "Justice vs the Law", and Roman's actions allow him to play the law to allow his schemes to come to fruition, thus preventing any attempts at true justice. Just as TDK had call back to recent government actions to catch extremists, this one would be calling back to political actions and games to dodge being brought to justice - twisting the law and using proxies to avoid repercussions while building an empire. Roman could serve as a perfect foil to Batman - both seek order, but Black Mask seeks domination and profit where as Batman seeks justice, while Roman is the philanthropic poster boy and Bruce is the useless fop. It also continues the idea from TDK of citizens stepping up as heroes by twisting it, having the latest hero appear to be good and decent, but rotten to the core.

The important thing would be to ignore the freaks' backgrounds instead of tying the movie up with tons of info about them. Firefly is a punk who gets off to burning buildings and uses homemade incendiary devices, Ventriloquist is just kind of creepy and memorable and turns into a blubbering heap when the doll is broken in a fight, stuff like that. The corny-ass Riddler suit? Actually fits in the Nolanverse if it's the horribly ugly thing Nygma has had in storage since his show in the late 70s, early 80s. I think that this Black Mask would make an interesting parallel to Batman, creating an alter ego so he can interact with and impose order on the criminal world rather than try to make Gotham a safer place. He's a pretty brutal guy as well. Nygma would be almost lighthearted in comparison, and you could keep him as a constant thorn in Batman's side without him having to kill or even hurt anyone. His philanthropic actions will mask his essentially fascist actions.

Daniel Day Lewis as Black Mask, Edward Norton as Riddler.
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Post by ray245 » 2008-07-25 01:47am

Just a thought...given that this film has a more competent police force...it will require a very skilled villian like the joker to justify having batman around to solve the crime.

If a manaic can be taken down by a competent police force easily, then there is no point in making him a batman villian.


Who is dangerous enough to be the next batman villian?

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Post by DPDarkPrimus » 2008-07-25 01:59am

I think Deathstroke would be an interesting choice for the next Batman film villain.
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Post by Death from the Sea » 2008-07-25 03:10am

SPILL.com has pretty good article on how to "Nolan-ify" four of Batman's villain's that have not been used yet.

link

I think their idea for the Penguin would work great with the story line they have going now with Batman being hunted and on the run...
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Post by Anguirus » 2008-07-25 04:48am

Going by most responses here, what you all would be happy with...
Apparently rolling in and going "blah blah blah Schumacher" = how to win a Batman thread. :wink:
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Post by Knife » 2008-07-25 05:57am

BATMAN III


The DARK STRANGER


Selina Kyle watched silently as the District attorney tore into her lover. Ever since the Dark Knight had instigated this witch hunt against Salvatore Maroni, Selina had slowly watched her life collapse around her.

Her life of wealth and power had all been shattered, as at first Harvey Dent and then Jeff Worthington had slowly stole her lifestyle, her man and then her very self worth was on trial.

Kyle was adrift; no longer insulated by Salvatore's massive influence, no longer buffered by an unlimited wealth. Selina must now venture forth into a world she does not know, into a world she does not respect; to find a way in which she will survive.



Harley Quinn watched silently as the Batman tore into her lover. Ever since the Joker had become obsesses with the enigmatic dark knight, Harley had watched her love, her dedication to him, slowly be replaced with his compulsion.

Her life of power and wealth had been stalled, at first by the actions of the attorney general Harvey Dent, and then slowly diminished by the Jokers slow decent into insanity. His ever lasting hate against the incorruptible Dark Knight of Gotham.

Harley was adrift, no longer insulated by the vast power of the Joker, no longer a washed in the undercurrent of the madness of the Clown Prince of Crime. With an empire of crime collapsing around her, she must fill the shoes of someone she is just starting to understand. Of a madness she is just starting to respect.

Bruce Wayne sits in his new mansion. Alone in his new mansion, visiting the dark memories of what could have been. Of a dark history with a dead woman.

Batman laments as his very soul screams for a new focus. Justice died with Dent, compassion with Rachael. Conviction still drives him. And yet without hope for the future, his heart yearns for something more.

As his alter ego, Bruce Wayne, delves into indulgences; the Caped Crusader finds the two new foes that intrigues him. One a simple bugler that is anything but simple. The other, the new emerging crime boss of Gothems shrinking crime gangs. Although he knows it, both women could spell the end of Batman and ultimately the end Gotham. In the end, only Bruce Wayne can choose.
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Post by Havok » 2008-07-25 06:06am

Ender
It's interesting that your bullshit example just jams a whole lot of new characters in and your Schumacher example just jams a whole lot of new characters in.

And you object to Robin, but want The Ventriloquist and his puppet. :roll:
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Post by Rye » 2008-07-25 07:10am

Ender wrote:Going by most responses here, what you all would be happy with is if Joel Schumacker came back to produce and direct the next one, having Ras (Liam Neeson) back as the new Mr Freeze (he is in a freeze suit due to the microwave damage), where Batman must deal with him and Catwoman's (Lindsay Lohan) plan to freeze the trapeze performers in Gotham. Fortunately, Batman teams up with a survivor to crack the case, and young Dick Grayson (Shia LaBeouf) comes along for the final battle. And a good thing he does, because it turns out "Catwoman" is actually Clayface (voiced by Roy Scheider). Cue big CGI final battle! Final scene Superman invites them to the Justice League, just like what happened in Incredible Hulk. Throw in some Ice/Cold puns, some CGI monkeys, and a sound track by whoever won American Idol, and you are set to jet, ready to rock and roll. Oh, and Venom. Needs more Venom. Can't go wrong with Topher Grace.
Heheheh!! That's a good depiction of why these people shouldn't be allowed near Hollywood. :P
And since I am sure there will be a call to do better then the dreck being spewed, here it is.

In the aftermath of TDK, organized crime in Gotham has been pretty much destroyed. Most of the middleman types are still incarcerated, family funds have dried up and you only have a couple of groups in the game at all.
I'd agree to this to some extent, I'd have it as a power vacuum spurring open gang wars instead of the more stable situation depicted amongst the major players. In other words, Gotham's become a warzone where any nobody has the opportunity to rise since the old guard was done away with by the Joker and Batman. This could set up a kingpin like the Penguin or perhaps a Riddler variant playing all sides off against one another in some grand master plan, his "riddles" making sure all the pawns are in place.

The lack of Joker could be dealt with by the Riddler being some sort of ambiguous figure that causes similar chaos for the supposed "right" reasons; he could be full of convincing arguments for what he's doing and could play off "Watchmen" esque questions of power and the end justifying the means, Batman's absolutism and soforth. I think I would end the third one with the Riddler actually winning, too. I must admit I was sort of rooting for the Joker in his ferry exercise.
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Post by Ender » 2008-07-25 10:19am

havokeff wrote:Ender
It's interesting that your bullshit example just jams a whole lot of new characters in and your Schumacher example just jams a whole lot of new characters in.

And you object to Robin, but want The Ventriloquist and his puppet. :roll:
No, I cited other possibilities while focusing on overall themes as the key strength of the new ones. You are a fucking moron, so I understand why you don't understand the difference. In your mind it is the color and effects that matter, not the story. We've spent the past two movies establishing Batman's mentality of isolating himself and not spreading the danger to others. This isn't some interpretation - Nolan's characters flat out state their motivation and inner thoughts. Now you want him to do a complete reversal and have a kid in a brightly colored unarmored suit running around. And you see completely discarding all the character that has been previously established as on the same level as having a Son of Sam style paranoid schizophrenic on screen.

But hey, having Robin gives you another child soldier on screen. And we all know you are a sick fuck who is down with that.
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Post by Ender » 2008-07-25 10:26am

Zuul wrote:I'd agree to this to some extent, I'd have it as a power vacuum spurring open gang wars instead of the more stable situation depicted amongst the major players. In other words, Gotham's become a warzone where any nobody has the opportunity to rise since the old guard was done away with by the Joker and Batman. This could set up a kingpin like the Penguin or perhaps a Riddler variant playing all sides off against one another in some grand master plan, his "riddles" making sure all the pawns are in place.

The lack of Joker could be dealt with by the Riddler being some sort of ambiguous figure that causes similar chaos for the supposed "right" reasons; he could be full of convincing arguments for what he's doing and could play off "Watchmen" esque questions of power and the end justifying the means, Batman's absolutism and soforth. I think I would end the third one with the Riddler actually winning, too. I must admit I was sort of rooting for the Joker in his ferry exercise.
Riddler is completely unimportant, I honestly stuck him in only because that story above is the result of a brainstorm between me and a friend, and this is cross posted from somewhere else without me tweaking it. The key part is Roman and Bruce playing off each other, keeping with overall themes of duality and justice. What makes these movies great isn't the stars or the acting, it is that just as X-men stepped beyond the cartoonish shit of the early and mid '90s by going with a "less spandex, more real" art style, they have stepped beyond "comic movie LOL" and started incorporating themes and imagery like more serious films do. It is a good trend, and one that needs to continue. One that needs to be at the forefront of people minds when thinking of the next film, not "which brightly colored piece of crap can I stick in here?"
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Post by Shroom Man 777 » 2008-07-25 10:40am

As for the antagonists in the next film... the Batman is a wanted criminal now. So aside from whatever villains he might be up against, he'll also be on the run from SWAT teams and stuff. It'd be a constant chase, practically near Bourne-style, now that Batman's officially a cop killer.

It's an awesome concept, but I can't imagine how Nolan would make it work. Then again, none of us were really expecting what we got in The Dark Knight.

Goddamn. Is there gonna be a sequel? Or is Nolan going to leave us off with a duology? That would be so fucking disappointing.

As much as I love Batman Forever and Batman & Begins, mang. Frickin' Cartoon Network just showed Begins and it was totally awesome. I'm going to watch The Dark Knight again.
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Post by Ted C » 2008-07-25 11:33am

I actually have a vision for how the Riddler's MO could work in a Nolan-esque Batman movie.

The Riddler establishes a pattern in which he leaves a riddle or puzzle for the police/Batman to find. It doesn't make sense when found, but it makes plenty of sense after the Riddler's next crime takes place. And that's the trick...

The riddle is a distraction. It never contains quite enough information to lead someone to the Riddler's next move. In fact, it really contains disinformation to lead his enemies away from his next action. Because the riddles always make sense after-the-fact, the police and Batman waste time and energy trying to solve it and end up going to the wrong place while the Riddler carries out his real plan.

The solution has to be to actually ignore the riddle and look at the pattern of actual crimes the Riddler has been committing to find his true goal. That, or look at the riddle from a "what is he trying to get me to do" standpoint, and then choose to do something else.

Another distinction between the Riddler and the Joker is that the Riddler is perfectly willing to actually kill the Batman, whereas the Joker just wants to drive him insane.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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