A New Joker and...

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-21 01:01am

Other Batman Begins and The Dark Knight sequel questions and ideas involving plot, villains, characters, who not to include etc..

Who if anyone can pick up where Ledger left off? Should Robin be introduced? Are there viable villains left in the gallery?

Thoughts?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-21 01:09am

A Lecter-esque Riddler would be pretty good. He was always my favorite. A non-campy Mr. Freeze could also work.

Pulp Hero · Post by **Pulp Hero** » 2008-07-21 01:16am

-I for one think a Nolanverse Catwoman would translate well on-screen, if not as the "main" villain, at least as the secondary one.

-Bane perhaps. He has both muscle and brains.

-Hush.

-Riddler.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-07-21 01:31am

I know that Black Mask was considered for TDK.

I second Catwoman, and would also like to see Scarecrow and Two-Face return (not necessarily in the same film or anything).

Also, IMO a good way to continue the Joker legacy while not replacing Ledger would be to introduce Harley Quinn.

Mlenk · Post by **Mlenk** » 2008-07-21 01:32am

Pulp Hero wrote:-I for one think a Nolanverse Catwoman would translate well on-screen, if not as the "main" villain, at least as the secondary one.

-Bane perhaps. He has both muscle and brains.

-Hush.

-Riddler.

Yes, Bane as in the guy from Knightfall saga and NOT from the tragedy of a movie called Batman & Robin, would work really well.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-07-21 01:37am

The only problem with Bane IMO is he is a bit cheesy in appearance for the Nolan-verse...however, his abilities and personality are near-perfect, and super-steroids are easily justified compared to the other sci-fi stuff in the films.

Now that I think of it, he would be terrific for a villain who's legitimately out to kill Batman, which hasn't happened in BB or TDK. You'd just need to give him a decent motivation.

Havok · Post by **Havok** » 2008-07-21 01:45am

Risking Ender's wrath, I would like to see a treatment of Robin. I want a serious take on the kid, partly because I've like what has been done with him over the recent years and to wipe the memory of Chris O'Donell out of my mind.

As for Joker, I'm sure there are a couple of people out there with the chops to take the character over... unfortunately one of the best is already playing Batman. I was talking to The Wench and I threw out the idea of Brad Pitt. She laughed and scoffed at me, just like you are doing right now.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-21 01:49am

The Riddler is probably the worst villain to use. He's a guy, right, a thief, who'd get away with it if he could just shut the fuck up. The only decent Riddler story is one where he's a hopeless OCD case and literally can't stop himself leaving clues, in which case 'Riddler' wouldn't be what he calls himself.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-07-21 02:47am

Knightfall-esque Bane is about the best 'comic rendition' rogue you could hope to get out of this. All the others would require heavy editing to fit into the universe; while I myself don't mind this, the question ultimately becomes should we do a Batman film then?

The best Pathos of the series were ultimately Freeze(Re: His wife, etc) and (Dare I invoke it? I dare) the 'The Batman' rendition of Clayface. But neither villain truly works without a rather fantastical world, and Nolan's Batman series is ultimately not one that would work well. Even Bane's incredible strength would push it.

(I dislike the Penguin for many reasons, even his Mob Boss rewrite. Frankly, he would have worked well had they not beat the subject of the Mob to death in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Bringing in Penguin requires a competent, well-running Mob, and that would mash on the Reset Button.)

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-21 02:52am

SirNitram wrote:(I dislike the Penguin for many reasons, even his Mob Boss rewrite. Frankly, he would have worked well had they not beat the subject of the Mob to death in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Bringing in Penguin requires a competent, well-running Mob, and that would mash on the Reset Button.)

Unless the Penguin is a newcomer to Gotham and assassinates his weakened mob rivals and takes over their respective assets to become the new crime overlord of the city. Like Marvel's Kingpin.

I think Talia al Ghul's Catwoman would make a fine assassin for the Penguin.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-21 02:55am

Galvatron wrote:
SirNitram wrote:(I dislike the Penguin for many reasons, even his Mob Boss rewrite. Frankly, he would have worked well had they not beat the subject of the Mob to death in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Bringing in Penguin requires a competent, well-running Mob, and that would mash on the Reset Button.)
Unless the Penguin is a newcomer to Gotham and assassinates his weakened mob rivals and takes over their respective assets to become the new crime overlord of the city. Like Marvel's Kingpin.

I think Talia al Ghul's Catwoman would make a fine assassin for the Penguin.

Keep pushing it, Galvatron. We'll blow up the oceans with you in them.

Galvatron · Post by **Galvatron** » 2008-07-21 03:01am

Or maybe the Nolanverse Penguin is just a thoroughly corrupt yet financially super-powerful business rival of Wayne Enterprises.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2008-07-21 03:29am

Galvatron wrote:
SirNitram wrote:(I dislike the Penguin for many reasons, even his Mob Boss rewrite. Frankly, he would have worked well had they not beat the subject of the Mob to death in Batman Begins and The Dark Knight. Bringing in Penguin requires a competent, well-running Mob, and that would mash on the Reset Button.)
Unless the Penguin is a newcomer to Gotham and assassinates his weakened mob rivals and takes over their respective assets to become the new crime overlord of the city. Like Marvel's Kingpin.

I think Talia al Ghul's Catwoman would make a fine assassin for the Penguin.

I dunno. Is there anything left of the Mob? The Joker casually killed quite a few of them, and then of course, when he got their money, he destroyed it. I think he'd have to import his operation. Not impossible, given the Gotham would have had a reputation of a mob-run town with a sudden vacancy.

I think that's about the best way to use a heavily edited Cat, though. Properly morally ambiguous so there isn't the ridiculous 'Thief but the Bat doesn't just toss her in jail at first sight' it got to be sometimes with the jewel-thief, but still plenty to make it a sharp contrast between the two.

Gigaliel · Post by **Gigaliel** » 2008-07-21 04:17am

SirNitram wrote: I dunno. Is there anything left of the Mob? The Joker casually killed quite a few of them, and then of course, when he got their money, he destroyed it. I think he'd have to import his operation. Not impossible, given the Gotham would have had a reputation of a mob-run town with a sudden vacancy.

I think that's about the best way to use a heavily edited Cat, though. Properly morally ambiguous so there isn't the ridiculous 'Thief but the Bat doesn't just toss her in jail at first sight' it got to be sometimes with the jewel-thief, but still plenty to make it a sharp contrast between the two.

I thought he only killed the higher-ups? If I remember correctly the middle 'management' types were the ones in police custody. The Joker still managed to use his mob-granted authority to a great extent despite this. The power base would still be there, just head-and-upper-torso-less.

Anyway, the Penguin, Catwoman, and other's tameness probably reflects a bit on what (I think) the third movie's theme would be. Since this is the third (and hopefully final) one it should cover Gotham's recovery and if the (loathed) Batman is even needed. Leading back to the whole Batman/Bruce Wayne dilemma.

What with Batman being an ex-member, killing their leader and proceeding to somewhat prove 'oh hey Gotham wasn't doomed!' bit, the League of Shadows could return as a slightly more benevolent organization with 'neutral' relations towards Bats.

This seems forced since they've been a bit, oh, genocidal. However, the League of Shadows seems to be the only way for Batman to continue being Batman without being reduced to merely beating up robbers that police are now actually arresting. Since his methods have been proven effective, an offer for a high rank isn't entirely loony. Talia* would illustrate the League's more moderate state.

There's always staying in Gotham since that was the whole point of Batman and letting him fade away. Feel free to contrast this with emotions for Talia/Catwoman which can only be encountered as 'Batman' versus the 'happy Gotham' he fought for associated with the dead Rachel/Harvey/Parents.

Mind you I'm running a little thin on what the villains would actually be doing to be menacing. Even Bane just doesn't seem to cut it.

*Who may or may not be masquerading as Catwoman/Selena Kyle to get to know Batman minus the "We tried to destroy Gotham" baggage. Maybe she likes using the alias because her father agreed with the League's more genocidal policies (common interest!). Also she likes cats and donates to animal shelters. I'm not seeing the stretch here.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2008-07-21 04:37am

I'd be interested to see them skip many years, more than a decade say, to show that Gotham was changed by Harvey and Batman, and that the Batman identity is seriously compromised now, but that Gotham is a normal city and better for it. They can continue the themes of violence and order from TDK as an older Batman is forced to step in to save a city that hates him (because he can take it) and how his anti-hero role has affected the city and his methods.

Solauren · Post by **Solauren** » 2008-07-21 08:32am

Don't expect to see Robin in the Nolan-verse. At least not with Christian Bale as Batman

He's already stated, publically, that he'd walk if any attempt to introduce Robin was added in.

Now, that might change if they come up with an amazing method of doing it, but I wouldn't hold my breath on it.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-21 10:59am

Maroni has a good chance of still being alive. Two-Face didn't shoot him, just the driver, and he was able to survive the crash. No reason Maroni couldn't have escaped with minor injuries.

Kodiak · Post by **Kodiak** » 2008-07-21 11:31am

I thought that Cillian Murphy could make a comeback as a very terrifying Scarecrow, though I also like the idea of an edgier Harley Quinn.

Pelranius · Post by **Pelranius** » 2008-07-21 12:06pm

Well, if the studios ever decided to just go the campy route, they could be creative and poach characters who aren't even part of the comics.

Like say, Bulldog Drummond.

Capt. Drummond of the Loamshire Regiment, out to restore the British Empire to greatness while throwing around racial and anti semitic slurs! And he could go try and hunt Batman with an elephant gun while flying a WWI biplane.

Wait, it gets even better! Alfred can be Drummond's alter ego! Think about it, Michael Caine in is younger years would look exactly like Bulldog!

And it's so campy that both Adam West and Joel Schumacher would be left speechless.

Yes, I know my imagination has been overloaded after experiencing the Dark Knight. I'll go and try and sleep it off now.

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-07-21 12:27pm

IF Robin ever enters the series, expect it to resemble the graphic novel Dark Victory.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2008-07-21 01:30pm

Poking around on the wiki, apparently The Doctor would like to try and take on the Dark Knight.

Best. Crossover. EVER!

JME2 · Post by **JME2** » 2008-07-21 01:52pm

Anguirus wrote:IF Robin ever enters the series, expect it to resemble the graphic novel Dark Victory.

I'm expecting some degree of DV influences given the Year One and Long Halloween influences on the film.

Anyway, my thoughts on the villains for a potential third film:

* Catwoman: I don't care if she's the last of the best-known villains; I have a strong dislike of Selina Kyle.

* Riddler's MO is too similar to TDK's take on the Joker; it'd be repetitive.

* Penguin: I can buy the idea of Cobblepot as a Kingpin-esque character.

* Bane: Same reasons above, just play down the steroids.

* Ventriloquist: It could work, albeit really fucked up. I'd personally love to see Nolan's take on Wesker and Scarface.

* Talia: Ra's conversation about his dead wife in the first film is a potential opening to bring the Daughter of the Demon in, if done properly.

* Hush: No. Just, no.

The Wench · Post by **The Wench** » 2008-07-21 01:58pm

Anguirus wrote:Also, IMO a good way to continue the Joker legacy while not replacing Ledger would be to introduce Harley Quinn.

I'm actually going to argue this would be a terrible alternative. Harley works as an arm for Joker, sure, but as a charcter that stands alone...I just don't see that happening. She's pretty boring by herself without his charisma, and I can't see her being as much a force as he is to make her purpose count enough to include her in upcoming flicks. I think that would be a Shumacher move...and I think moviegoers in general wouldn't quite get her purpose unless they read the comics or watched the cartoon...too much explaining to do in her case.

I vote Catwoman, myself.

Battlehymn Republic · Post by **Battlehymn Republic** » 2008-07-21 01:59pm

I kind of want to see an appearance of a low-key hero, kind of like Batman Begins had the second-tier Scarecrow as a secondary villain. Maybe the Question?

Anguirus · Post by **Anguirus** » 2008-07-21 02:22pm

She's pretty boring by herself without his charisma, and I can't see her being as much a force as he is to make her purpose count enough to include her in upcoming flicks.

A lot of that would depend on the writing and the actor, I think. I'm not saying she should be a lead villain but she might be a way to make Joker's presence felt.

She had a great scene in Hush where she basically took on Batman and Catwoman with no Joker in sight, and certainly held her own.