Order of the Stick vs Fellowship of the Ring

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General Trelane (Retired)
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Post by General Trelane (Retired) »

Gil Hamilton wrote:It was an Uruk-Hai. He was the one who shield bashed Boromir and then slammed Frodo to a wall with a giant spear.
In any case, it would be implausible for that orc to have had a flimsy helmet.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Other way around. In the book, the shards of Narsil were forged into Andúril before the Fellowship left Rivendell, whereas in the movie, Elrond delivers it to him before he heads up the Path of the Dead. He definitely had it in Moria, since it's mentioned directly in the description of him killing the Uruk-Hai chieftain. And damn me for leaving my copy of Lord of the Rings at home when I left for college.
I think you're right. I do recall Aragorn being required to leave his sword outside the hall when they went to see Theoden, and he wasn't very happy about it because it was Andúril. The rangers hadn't met up with him at that point yet.
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Post by Yogi »

Gil Hamilton wrote:I'm not sure I follow peoples logic on this one that Roy wins because of his heavy armor. Aragorn has fought and killed things heavily armored too. In fact, in Moria, he killed that Uruk-Hai chieftain with a shot to the head that split the orcs skull through his iron helmet. It could be that the Uruk had a poorly made helmet, but the description of the even makes it sound like Aragorn really clobbered him with Andúril. Besides, he wouldn't be much of a sword fighter if he didn't know about how armor lays and where the gaps necessarily are.

Frankly, I don't see how Roy can overcome Aragorn's greater experience and clearly legendary weapon. I suppose any fighter on any given day, but Aragorn seems too tough.
Has Aragorn done anything that approaches the God of War feat? Bear in mind that Belkar doesn't have the Wisdom to use most of his class abilities, and the abilities he can use are useless in a direct fight. Roy is pure fighter, with a powerful magical weapon.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Yogi wrote:Has Aragorn done anything that approaches the God of War feat? Bear in mind that Belkar doesn't have the Wisdom to use most of his class abilities, and the abilities he can use are useless in a direct fight. Roy is pure fighter, with a powerful magical weapon.
What does that have to do with Roy and Aragorn?
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Post by Yogi »

Gil Hamilton wrote:What does that have to do with Roy and Aragorn?
Because Roy is a heck of a lot better than Belkar is at fighting. He's s fighter, while Belkar's a ranger with no cleric spells, no animal companion, and no cover. So if Aragorn can't measure up to Belkar, he's not beating Roy.
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Post by consequences »

Incidentally, by the prequel book Start of Darkness, Xykon would appear to be a 20th level sorceror with a Charisma of 29 minimum, by virtue of tossing down seven ninth level spells in the course of a single encounter. Or a nineteenth level sorceror with a minimum charisma of 45.

As a side note, the three he can use are Energy Drain, Soul Bind, and Meteor Swarm, unless he has some cheaty method of amping his known spells. Spells spoilerised for potential future plot implications.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Yogi wrote:Because Roy is a heck of a lot better than Belkar is at fighting. He's s fighter, while Belkar's a ranger with no cleric spells, no animal companion, and no cover. So if Aragorn can't measure up to Belkar, he's not beating Roy.
You see, that's the thing. Why should I be impressed by that? Are those elite warriors similar in skill to Balkar or the goblin short bus squadron? Hell, they say at the bottom that Belkar's getting no exp for those guys, so chances are the lot of them are much weaker that him. Given that they are wearing soft armor, they aren't going to compare much to heavily armored Uruk-hai and orcs, which Aragorn has fought waves of in places like the Hornburg and the Black Gate.

Besides, you haven't even established that Roy is even a better fighter, or even that he's so dominant that Belkar doesn't have a chance. Or that Roy could crush Aragorn despite his decades upon decades of experience as a warrior.
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Post by Yogi »

Gil Hamilton wrote:You see, that's the thing. Why should I be impressed by that? Are those elite warriors similar in skill to Balkar or the goblin short bus squadron? Hell, they say at the bottom that Belkar's getting no exp for those guys, so chances are the lot of them are much weaker that him. Given that they are wearing soft armor, they aren't going to compare much to heavily armored Uruk-hai and orcs, which Aragorn has fought waves of in places like the Hornburg and the Black Gate.
Those are standard regular Hobgoblin soldiers. Has Aragorn ever been able to kill that many soldiers?
Gil Hamilton wrote:Besides, you haven't even established that Roy is even a better fighter, or even that he's so dominant that Belkar doesn't have a chance.
Roy is a Fighter, Belkar is mostly a Ranger with some levels of Barbarian thrown in. That means Belkar gets fewer feats and fewer hit points. Then there's the +5 Undead-bane Greatsword vs. two small daggers.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Or that Roy could crush Aragorn despite his decades upon decades of experience as a warrior.
Hey, just wondering. What WAS the most number of enemies that Aragorn killed at once, or any other quantifiable feat you'd like to mention. "Decades of experience" tells us jack shit.
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Post by Yogi »

One last thing.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Given that they are wearing soft armor,
What makes you think they were wearing soft armor? Don't say it's because Belkar can stab them in the chest. Belkar can cut people in half with his daggers and people can be wounded through armor.

Now, exactly how tough are the armor that these "heavily armored Uruk-hai and orcs" wear?
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Post by Stormbringer »

Yogi wrote:Now, exactly how tough are the armor that these "heavily armored Uruk-hai and orcs" wear?
It's not that great of stuff. The most they were is ring mail, shields, and bits of armor. It wasn't the heavy infantry, plate and chain mail armor of the movies that's for sure. What the Uruks are canonically described to wear is pretty much the typical gear of mass infantry in that's it's not the tip top quality but a significant boost over simple peasant levies. Given the dubious, slave driven economy of Mordor there's a serious question of craftsmanship.

It's better than nothing. But compared to adventurers with magical gear like the Fellowship of the Ring, Thorin's band, or the Order of the Stick I wouldn't call it that great.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Yogi wrote:Those are standard regular Hobgoblin soldiers. Has Aragorn ever been able to kill that many soldiers?
And what good are these "standard regular Hobgoblin soldiers"? They are clearly vastly below Belkar, so why should we consider him killing them that much of an impressive feat, style over substance arguments aside?

And chances are he has. He's been around a while.
Roy is a Fighter, Belkar is mostly a Ranger with some levels of Barbarian thrown in. That means Belkar gets fewer feats and fewer hit points. Then there's the +5 Undead-bane Greatsword vs. two small daggers.
Who cares? How exactly does this demonstrate that Roy is vastly beyond Belkar so that he's guaranteed to win any encounter, or that Belkar or Roy could do the same to Aragorn.
Hey, just wondering. What WAS the most number of enemies that Aragorn killed at once, or any other quantifiable feat you'd like to mention. "Decades of experience" tells us jack shit.
Let me guess, you haven't actually read the Lord of the Rings, have you?
What makes you think they were wearing soft armor? Don't say it's because Belkar can stab them in the chest. Belkar can cut people in half with his daggers and people can be wounded through armor.

Now, exactly how tough are the armor that these "heavily armored Uruk-hai and orcs" wear?
Actually, yes. The fact that he can stab those guys through the chest is entirely adequate evidence that they aren't wearing much more than cloth armor. Cartoon violence aside a second, the second link you provided demonstrates the prevalence of cloth armor.

Chainmail and ringmail, to say nothing of plated armor, that sort of stuff is specifically designed against slashing and stabbing weapons. In fact, a half way decent chainmail shirt will probably prevent you from being slashed or seriously stabbed. That's not to say you would feel the blunt force trauma of it and sustain injury, which is why alot of the injuries that medieval doctors treating soldiers was broken bones and stab injuries in exposed areas. Actual plate and mail armor was obscenely good at dealing with the conventional weapons of the day and would certainly turn some pissant daggers.

Hence, it's reasonable to conclude if Belkar was stabbing people through the chest repeatedly with no flukes involved, reasoning falls squarely on them not being armored.

Stormbringer did an adequate job of describing Uruk armor, though I disagree about his conclusion about the craftsmanship (orcish smiths were never depicted as that bad really and Sauron MUST have had some skilled craftsman). Chances are they were on the same general level of craftsmanship as anyone except the dwarves and the elves, since mannish craftsmanship had slid a long way by the time of the War of the Ring. Certainly they were around the same level of the Rohirrim, for instance, and I'd suspect that some legions were better equipped than others (such as the White Hand Uruk-Hai that Aragorn and the Rohirrim fought at Helm's Deep).

However, ringmail armor, shields, iron helmets (that's a known), and some armor kits puts them heads and shoulders about those hobgoblins you linked.
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Post by Yogi »

Gil Hamilton wrote:And what good are these "standard regular Hobgoblin soldiers"? They are clearly vastly below Belkar, so why should we consider him killing them that much of an impressive feat, style over substance arguments aside?
What are you trying to say? Yes Belkar killed a lot of them, yes they are way weaker than Belkar. It's because Belkar is a VERY good fighter, and hence better than these standard lv. 1 Fighter mooks.
Gil Hamilton wrote:And chances are he has. He's been around a while.
You know what I mean. At once.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Who cares? How exactly does this demonstrate that Roy is vastly beyond Belkar so that he's guaranteed to win any encounter, or that Belkar or Roy could do the same to Aragorn.
Because that's how D&D works. Order of the Stick uses 3.5 D&D game mechanics. Hence, Roy is stronger.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Let me guess, you haven't actually read the Lord of the Rings, have you?
Whereas I don't need to guess if you've read Order of the Stick or not. Still no feats.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Actually, yes. The fact that he can stab those guys through the chest is entirely adequate evidence that they aren't wearing much more than cloth armor. Cartoon violence aside a second, the second link you provided demonstrates the prevalence of cloth armor.
"Cloth" vs. +3 keen rapier. If that's what cloth armor does, I'll take that over metal any time.
Gil Hamilton wrote:Chainmail and ringmail, to say nothing of plated armor, that sort of stuff is specifically designed against slashing and stabbing weapons. In fact, a half way decent chainmail shirt will probably prevent you from being slashed or seriously stabbed. That's not to say you would feel the blunt force trauma of it and sustain injury, which is why alot of the injuries that medieval doctors treating soldiers was broken bones and stab injuries in exposed areas. Actual plate and mail armor was obscenely good at dealing with the conventional weapons of the day and would certainly turn some pissant daggers.

Hence, it's reasonable to conclude if Belkar was stabbing people through the chest repeatedly with no flukes involved, reasoning falls squarely on them not being armored.
Or Belkar's +13 Base Attack Bonus vs. Chainmail + Shield's +6 Armor bonus. Perhaps normal humans aren't able to bypass armor this easily, but this is D&D 3.5e here. You're thinking about D&D adventurers as being normal people where even a Lv. 5 Fighter would be considered superhuman by modern standards. At 13th level these people are taking on Dragons. A bit of armor is not going to stop them.
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Post by Stormbringer »

Actually, yes. The fact that he can stab those guys through the chest is entirely adequate evidence that they aren't wearing much more than cloth armor. Cartoon violence aside a second, the second link you provided demonstrates the prevalence of cloth armor.
Not really. As mentioned, Belkar is at minimum a 10th level Ranger/Barbarian and probably closer to 13th. For comparison a highly trained soldier is only around 3-4. It's not at all unusual for such a high level hero to be capable of action movie level stunts. It's perfectly possible for Belkar to be able to stab them clear through either ring or chain mail. It's called being unusually bad ass.

Loathe though I am to point them out, the D&D books like those of R.A. Salvatore are rife with examples of mid-level heroes wading through entire armies of opposing enemies. And it's not because they're pitiful losers, it's because in the D&D world it's perfectly possible for even mid level characters to actually pull off such feats.
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Post by LadyTevar »

Stormbringer wrote:Loathe though I am to point them out, the D&D books like those of R.A. Salvatore are rife with examples of mid-level heroes wading through entire armies of opposing enemies. And it's not because they're pitiful losers, it's because in the D&D world it's perfectly possible for even mid level characters to actually pull off such feats.
Case in point: my 9th lvl WarBlade (Tome of Battle Character Option) mowed through 8 4th lvl human fighters in two rounds.

1 me. 8 them. 2 rounds.
Thats not counting what the Archer/Rogue and the two spellcasters did.
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Post by Gil Hamilton »

Stormbringer wrote:Not really. As mentioned, Belkar is at minimum a 10th level Ranger/Barbarian and probably closer to 13th. For comparison a highly trained soldier is only around 3-4. It's not at all unusual for such a high level hero to be capable of action movie level stunts. It's perfectly possible for Belkar to be able to stab them clear through either ring or chain mail. It's called being unusually bad ass.
Sorry, I'm not biting. One of those scripts above had people with goddamn samurai sabres cutting through those Hobgoblins shirts. Chainmail shirts are by very design absurdly good at stopping slashing blows, to say nothing about armor plates, and if there was ever a slashing weapon, it's a katana. If they were wearing actual armor, they couldn't possibly be run through by a katana, let alone some pissant daggers. Bad ass isn't a factor. To claim that it is is ridiculously masturbatory.

Therefore, the rational conclusion is that they aren't armored, or at least not with more than padded cloth or leather.
Loathe though I am to point them out, the D&D books like those of R.A. Salvatore are rife with examples of mid-level heroes wading through entire armies of opposing enemies. And it's not because they're pitiful losers, it's because in the D&D world it's perfectly possible for even mid level characters to actually pull off such feats.
Then how is this discussion in any way meaningful? For whatever else it is, Lord of the Rings fighting and warfare is basically (for the most part) bounded by what is possible in medieval fighting. Boromir, for instance, was an excellent swordsman, but by himself he couldn't fight a legion of uruk-hai, as his death proved. The fact that he killed as many as he did before he was killed to constitute a boatful of equipment taken from orcs to be laid at his feet when they sent his body down the river towards his homeland was a superhuman feat. Which is fair. Even the best swordsman in the world will be overpowered and defeated by several people who are reasonably competent warriors, let alone the company of uruks that Saruman set on them.

Besides, what do books that R.A. Salvatore have to do with this discussion (and why would you want to bring them up, I've half of one of them and it's an experience I'd like to forget)? Are we talking about Order of the Stick, specifically, or not?
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Post by Stormbringer »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Then how is this discussion in any way meaningful? For whatever else it is, Lord of the Rings fighting and warfare is basically (for the most part) bounded by what is possible in medieval fighting.
And that's why there is a problem. Order of the Stick operates under D&D rules and cartoon physics. The way their universe works has only a tangental relationship with anything like realism. Character work around carrying they internal organs and are cured by stuff from a green vial. Characters can walk through the middle of a raging building fire and are virtually unharmed (because fire does relatively little game damage). Or how Miko's katana does nothing more than superficial cheek scars? There are countless example of where realism goes entirely out the window.

So this relentless argument that OotS can't possible work how we know damn well it does it pointless. By the basic proposition of suspension of disbelief you've got to accept the fact that things really do work the way they are portrayed.
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Post by avatarxprime »

Gil Hamilton wrote:Sorry, I'm not biting. One of those scripts above had people with goddamn samurai sabres cutting through those Hobgoblins shirts. Chainmail shirts are by very design absurdly good at stopping slashing blows, to say nothing about armor plates, and if there was ever a slashing weapon, it's a katana. If they were wearing actual armor, they couldn't possibly be run through by a katana, let alone some pissant daggers. Bad ass isn't a factor. To claim that it is is ridiculously masturbatory.

Therefore, the rational conclusion is that they aren't armored, or at least not with more than padded cloth or leather.
Ok, even going with cloth armor, look here again. Belkar causally slices through a hobgoblin's leg with that dagger of his. This shows he can cut clean through the femur, the strongest bone in the body. Armor or not on the legs, it's still an impressive feat.
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Post by Duckie »

Here's a point about D&D.

Belkar is about 12th level, which puts him at about infinity commoners or a few score normal warriors in terms of FIGHT TO DEATH capability.

A 20th level Barbarian can survive orbital reentry by sheer toughness if given fire immunity by a rather common (at 20th level) magic ring.
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Post by Duckie »

GHETTO EDIT: What I mean is, if we're using game mechanics, heroes in D&D approach insanity levels asymptotically the further one gets past Level 8.
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Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

On a side note, the blade Anduril is particularly special as it was forged by Telchar of Nogrod who was the mightiest Weaponsmith the dwarves had in the First age of the Sun. In the arts of weapon crafting, the Dwarves of Aule were unmatched. Angrist, a blade also crafted by Telchar, was known to have cut through iron like wood. Angrist was used to cut the Silmaril from Morgoth's crown. There are quotes on this in the Silmarillion, but since I do not have the book with me, I do not have the relevant quotes.
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Then how is this discussion in any way meaningful? For whatever else it is, Lord of the Rings fighting and warfare is basically (for the most part) bounded by what is possible in medieval fighting.
And OoTS is not. Their cannon abilities are expressely those of a D&D game mechanic. Where slashing through plate mail with daggers, and disintegrating set volumes (independant of density) with a word and gesture are possible, and commonplace. If you dont like it, take it up with Wizards of the Coast, and the author, suspend disbelief, and shut the fuck up
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Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I will also point out, this talk of armor is Irrelevant. ROy could be naked and still kick the shit out of Aragorn, if for no other reason than because he can take a dozen wounds that would kill a normal person and still be in top fighting form, while Aragorn cannot take a single hit. This goes for any of the OoTS characters. The physically weakest member of their party (V) can survive being repeated blugeoned by the brances of animated trees over the course of several minutes
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