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Quote of the Week: "A great civilization is not conquered from without until it has destroyed itself from within." - Will Durant, American historian (1885-1981)


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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-06-08 10:35pm
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Sorry, I don't have my books with me either right now, but I'm pretty sure there's nothing that can actually be quantified, just Gollum's off-hand comment. I'll check it out soon.



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-07-07 01:31am
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Army of the Dead
The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘“But the oath that they broke was to fight against Sauron, and they must fight therefore, if they are to fulfill it. For at Erech there stands yet a black stone that was brought, it was said, from Númenor by Isildur; and it was set upon a hill, and upon it the King of the Mountains swore allegiance to him in the beginning of the realm of Gondor. But when Sauron returned and grew in might again, Isildur summoned the Men of the Mountains to fulfil their oath, and they would not: for they had worshipped Sauron in the Dark Years.

Then Isildur said to their king: ‘Thou shalt be the last king. And if the West prove mightier than thy Black Master, this curse I lay upon thee and thy folk: to rest never until your oath is fulfilled. For this war will last through years uncounted, and you shall be summoned once again ere the end.’ And they fled before the wrath of Isildur, and did not dare to go forth to war on Sauron’s part; and they hid themselves in secret places in the mountains and had no dealings with other men, but slowly dwindled in the barren hills. And the terror of the Sleepless Dead lies about the Hill of Erech and all places where that people lingered. But that way I must go, since there are none living to help me.”’

For those who've been living under a rock, the origin of the Dead Men being set-up. I've seen it hinted before that it was Ilúvatar himself that empowered the curse, since only he knows the fate of Men's souls or somesuch, but I haven't been able to find anything about that.

The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘Aragorn had brought torches from Dunharrow, and now he went ahead bearing one aloft; and Elladan with another went at the rear, and Gimli, stumbling behind, strove to overtake him. He could see nothing but the dim flame of the torches; but if the company halted, there seemed an endless whisper of voices all about him, a murmur of words in no tongue that he had ever heard before.

Nothing assailed the company nor withstood their passage, and yet steadily fear grew on the Dwarf as he went on: most of all because he knew now that there could be no turning back; all the paths behind were thronged by an unseen host that followed in the dark.’

Spooooky....

The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘Nonetheless [Gimli] drew near, and saw Aragorn kneeling, while Elladan held aloft both torches. Before him were the bones of a mighty man. He had been clad in mail, and still his harness lay there whole; for the cavern’s air was as dry as dust, and his hauberk was gilded. His belt was of gold and garnets, and rich with gold was the helm upon his bony head face downward on the floor. He had fallen near the far wall of the cave, as no could be seen, and before him stood a stony door closed fast: his finger-bones were still clawing at the cracks. A notched and broken sword lay by him, as if he had hewn at the rock in his last despair.’

The Company happens upon Baldor, the man who was to become the third King of Rohan if he hadn't been foolishly brave (or bravely foolish) to try and walk the Paths of the Dead. Tolkien goes into detail about what exactly happened in an issue of Vinyar Tengwar:
Quote:
"The special horror of the closed door before which the skeleton of Baldor was found was probably due to the fact that the door was the entrance to an evil temple hall [of the same Men of Darkness to which the Oathbreakers presumably belonged] to which Baldor had come, probably without opposition up to that point. But the door was shut in his face, and enemies that had followed him silently came up and broke his legs and left him to die in the darkness, unable to find any way out."

which indicates that the Dead can interact with the living, violently. This however clashes with quotes further on.

The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘“Keep your hoards and your secrets hidden in the Accursed Years! Speed only we ask. Let us pass, and then come! I summon you to the Stone of Erech!”

There was no answer, unless it were an utter silence more dreadful than the whispers before; and then a chill blast came in which the torches flickered and went out, and could not be rekindled. Of the time that followed, one hour or many, Gimli remembered little. The others pressed on, be he was ever hindmost, pursued by a groping horror that seemed always about to seize him; and a rumour came after him like the shadow-sound of many feet. He stumbled on until he was crawling like a beast on the ground and felt that he could endure no more: he must either find an ending and escape or run back in madness to meet the following fear.’

The Dead have the same wind machine designed to blow out lights that all undead seem to have :) And Gimli starts losing it in the dark.

The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘The Company now mounted again, and Gimli returned to Legolas. They rode in file, and evening came on and a deep blue dusk; and still fear pursued them. Legolas turning to speak to Gimli looked back and the Dwarf saw before his face the glitter in the Elf’s bright eyes. Behind them rode Elladan, last of the Company, but not the last of those that took the downward road.

“The Dead are following,” said Legolas. “I see shapes of Men and of horses, and pale banners like shreds of cloud, and spears like winter-thickets on a misty night. The Dead are following.”

“Yes, the Dead ride behind. They have been summoned,” said Elladan.’

"Bring out your dead..."

The Passing of the Grey Company wrote:
‘Long had the terror of the Dead lain upon [the Hill of Erech] and upon the empty fields about it. For upon the top stood a black stone, round as a great globe, the height of a man, though its half was buried in the ground. Unearthly it looked, as though it had fallen from the sky, as some believed; but those who remembered still the lore of Westernesse told that it had been brought out of the ruin of Númenor and there set by Isildur at his landing…

To that Stone the Company came and halted in the dead of night. Then Elrohir gave to Aragorn a silver horn, and he blew upon it; and it seemed to those that stood near that they heard a sound of answering horns, as if it was an echo in deep caves far away. No other sound they heard, and yet they were aware of a great host gathered all about the hill on which they stood; and a chill wind like the breath of ghosts came down from the mountains. But Aragorn dismounted, and standing by the Stone he cried in a great voice:

“Oathbreakers, why have ye come?”

And a voice was heard out of the night that answered him, as if from far away:

“To fulfill our oath and have peace.”

Then Aragorn said: “The hour is come at last. Now I go to Pelargir upon Anduin, and ye shall come after me. And when all this land is clean of the servants of Sauron, I will hold the oath fulfilled, and ye shall have peace and depart for ever. For I am Elessar, Isildur’s heir of Gondor.”’

The Dead can speak Common, and Aragorn lays down the ground rules of their deal.

The Last Debate wrote:
‘[Gimli] fell silent; but Pippin and Merry were so eager for news that at last Legolas said: “I will tell you enough for your peace; for I felt not the horror, and I feared not the shadows of Men, powerless and frail as I deemed them.”’

This quote however seems to clash against the idea that the Dead can affect the living, if Legolas is calling them 'powerless and frail.' Tolkien could've changed his mind about the Dead's interactions when he detailed the death of Baldor, or it could be Legolas is being arrogant and showing off in front of the hobbits how he's not scared of anything. :)

The Last Debate wrote:
‘“And lo! in the darkness of Mordor my hope rose; for in that gloom the Shadow host seemed to grow stronger and more terrible to look upon. Some I saw riding, some striding, yet all moving with the same great speed. Silent they were, but there was a gleam in their eyes. In the uplands of Lamedon they overtook our horses, and swept round us, and would have passed us by, if Aragorn had not forbidden them.”’

Self-explanatory, the AotD can move faster then horses easily.

The Last Debate wrote:
‘“For my part we heeded them not,” said Gimli; “for we came then at last upon battle in earnest. There are Pelargir lay the main fleet of Umbar, fifty great ships and smaller vessels beyond count. Many of those that we pursued had reached the havens before us, and brought their fear with them; and some of the ships had put off, seeking escape down the River or to reach the far shore; and many of the smaller craft were ablaze. But the Haradrim, being now driven to the brink, turned at bay, and they were fierce in despair; and they laughed when they looked on us, for they were a great army still.

But Aragorn halted and cried with a great voice: “Now come! By the Black Stone I call you!” And suddenly the Shadow Host that had hung back at the last came up like a grey tide, sweeping away all before it. Faint cries I heard, and dim horns blowing, and a murmur as of countless far voices: it was like an echo of some forgotten battle in the Dark Years long ago. Pale swords were drawn; but I know not whether their blades would still bite, for the Dead needed no longer any weapon but fear. None would withstand them.

To every ship they came that was drawn up, and then they passed over the water to those that were anchored; and all the mariners were filled with a madness of terror and leaped overboard, save the slaves chained to the oars. Reckless we rode among our fleeing foes, driving them like leaves…”

The quote does little to clear up the question of Dead physicality, since most of their enemies were fleeing before the Dead, nor does it chronical anyone besides the Grey Company killing the Haradrim and Corsairs. It does at least seem to prove PJ's interpretation that the Dead can 'float' as they pass easily over the water.

The Last Debate wrote:
‘“Then he let sound a great concourse of trumpets taken from the enemy; and the Shadow Host withdrew to the shore. There they stood silent, hardly to be seen, save for a red gleam in their eyes that caught the glare of the ships that were burning. And Aragorn spoke in a loud voice to the Dead Men, crying:

“Hear now the words of the Heir of Isildur! Your oath is fulfilled. Go back and trouble not the valleys ever again! Depart and be at rest!”

And thereupon the King of the Dead stood out before the host and broke his spear and cast it down. Then he bowed low and turned away; and swiftly the whole grey host drew off and vanished like a mist that is driven back by a sudden wind…”

And of course the controversial decision of Aragorn to dismiss the AotD; they don't even get used at the Pelennor Fields as in the movie. There are several explinations for why this happens though: one is that Aragorn somehow knew that the Dead would not be as effective against the main army as they were against the raiding forces. The Witch-King was in charge at Pelennor Field, and was known for commanding undead spirits, and maybe had some way of defeating the AotD with witchcraft. Perhaps, since Sauron was personally influencing his armies with sheer will power, that they would not be as easily scared away as the regular men. Or Aragorn didn't want to test the limits of Isildur's curse too far, and felt like being a nice guy. For whatever reason, he feels that they've done enough by freeing Pelargir and sets them free.



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


Last edited by Balrog on 2008-04-25 03:38pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-07-07 08:33am
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And I thought that I was a Tolkien fan. Your posts put me to shame. Good job.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-08-31 06:09pm
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Sorry for the long time in between updates, I've been very busy since the last entry and, though my free time will still be limited for awhile, I do intend to continue this database.

However, I was wondering if there was anything of particular interest that could be requested? A single person, a group of people, an entire race? Otherwise expect the seemingly random pattern that's been going on :)



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-08-31 06:29pm
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Balrog wrote:
However, I was wondering if there was anything of particular interest that could be requested? A single person, a group of people, an entire race? Otherwise expect the seemingly random pattern that's been going on :)


Well, you haven't done the Eagles yet, and they're fairly plot-critical and have a reasonable amount of descriptive text (as well as being generally cool).



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-01 08:57pm
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Has Tom Bombadil or the Barrow Wights been done?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-01 11:30pm
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Balrog wrote:
Well, of the Five sent to the NW of Middle-Earth, the two Blue Wizards went east with Saruman and kinda...disappeared. Their exact fate is a bit murky, though IIRC the last Tolkien wrote of them was that they succeeded somewhat in building a resistance against Sauron's control. In their case, geographical distance would be the primary deterrant against keeping up-to-date with the others.

Unless I am misremembering, both Alatar and Pallando journeyed into the east and were corrupted. After their corruption it is said they founded many cults of black magic that endured into the fourth age causing trouble for the realms of Men, turning many to darkness, and aiding Melkor on his eventual return. I'll see if I can find the source though, since that was off the top of my head.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-02 06:47am
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"Melkor's eventual return"? He was cast outside the world, he isn't going to return, as far as I knew.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-02 07:10am
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andrewgpaul wrote:
"Melkor's eventual return"? He was cast outside the world, he isn't going to return, as far as I knew.


But according to the Middle-Earth lore, would return in time for the Last Battle between the forces of good and evil and be utterly defeated and vanquished.

I'm curious, though - has it ever been elaborated what would be Sauron's place in the fateful Last Battle? I don't think that the Lord of Mordor could again slip from the grasp of the Valar and the servants of Iluvatár.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-02 05:57pm
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"Melkor's eventual return"? He was cast outside the world, he isn't going to return, as far as I knew.

Incorrect. In the fourth age he will corrupt Tillion and use him to break the Doors of Night, thereby allowing his return to the world where he marshals his power against the Vala once more.

Quote:
I'm curious, though - has it ever been elaborated what would be Sauron's place in the fateful Last Battle?

There has been no definate answer to that as far as I know, but there were some hints in various places such as the Lost Tales and Unfinished Tales that allow some to guess that Melkor would return him to his previous power and make him his Lieutenant.

As I said though, those are just vague hints and speculation from them. I am of the mind that it is equally likely Sauron is fucked for the rest of forever thanks to Frodo.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-03 04:40pm
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Ar-Adunakhor wrote:
Quote:
"Melkor's eventual return"? He was cast outside the world, he isn't going to return, as far as I knew.

Incorrect. In the fourth age he will corrupt Tillion and use him to break the Doors of Night, thereby allowing his return to the world where he marshals his power against the Vala once more.

Quote:
I'm curious, though - has it ever been elaborated what would be Sauron's place in the fateful Last Battle?

There has been no definate answer to that as far as I know, but there were some hints in various places such as the Lost Tales and Unfinished Tales that allow some to guess that Melkor would return him to his previous power and make him his Lieutenant.

As I said though, those are just vague hints and speculation from them. I am of the mind that it is equally likely Sauron is fucked for the rest of forever thanks to Frodo.


Err.. Out of curiosity, where did you read about the final battle? Who is this Tillion fellow? Also, if I recall correctly, somewhere in LoTR and the Silmarillion, it is said that Sauron suffered the same fate as Melkor and that like Melkor, his powers were severely diminished or something of the like.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-03 05:14pm
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Lost Tales and Unfinished Tales, as well as some tidbits out of the various Christopher Tolkien "daddy's notebooks" books. Morgoth's Ring was the biggest resource out of the Chris books, if I remember correctly.

Tillion is the Maia who was appointed to guide the course of the moon and is hopelessly in love with Arien, the lady Maia who guides the sun. Arien travels through the Doors of Night to complete her circut around from west to east, but her fiery spirit is indomitable and Morgoth cannot sway her. Tillion, on the other hand, is a Maia of Irmo and didn't have his soul purified in the same way as Arien and is therefore unable to travel after her through the doors and perpetually unable to catch her. This impurity and longing for Arien leads to him being seduced by Morgoth (I have no idea how, maybe servants left behind like Sauron or Durin's Bane... or maybe some of the essence he left in the world as described in Morgoth's Ring) and breaking the Doors of Night to follow Arien through. When he breaks (or holds open, Tolkien used both phrases to describe what he did) the doors he releases Morgoth back into the world and everyone pees themselves.

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-03 05:23pm
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If Sauron could regain some of his powers despite the lost of the ring, I guess it is possible Melkor regained much of his elder strength before the War of Wrath.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-03 05:31pm
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As I said though, it's all just a bunch of grey handwaving on Sauron around that period. I see no reason not to think he is fucked after losing the ring. I also see no reason why Morgoth would get his powers back either. After all, the entire reason the world is broken and remade is to get his corrupting power out of it... and if he already had it back then why would they need to break it in the first place?

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-04 02:33am
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If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-04 08:16am
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CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.


... huh? Aren't the wizards Maiar? What could they do against a full-fledged Vala like Morgoth? I mean, if he came back he'd be at full strength, right?



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-04 08:25am
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CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.

Apparently the remaining blue wizards were corrupted and actually facilitate Morgoth's return. Tolkien's notes (From what I remember) seemed to suggest a full fledged War between all of Melkor's past and present servants (Including a ressurected Sauron) against a full host of the Valar, Maia, including heroes of the past such as Turin, Hurin etc'



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-04 08:01pm
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CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.


Radagast would be too busy tending his 'herbs' and talking to animals to bother ;)

And since there seems to be some confusion, perhaps it's best to post some quotes about the Blue Wizard's fate rather then go off hearsay?



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-04 11:37pm
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Surlethe wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.


... huh? Aren't the wizards Maiar? What could they do against a full-fledged Vala like Morgoth? I mean, if he came back he'd be at full strength, right?


I remember reading somewhere that Eonwe was a Maiar but he was the mightiest with arms... Though Tulkas has the honour of strength.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-05 12:09am
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The Numenorian armada that assaulted Valinor is said to be held in the center of the earth also awaiting the "Day of Doom", so I'm guessing that Middle Earth's armageddon is going to be one hell of a party.



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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-09-23 01:51pm
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Barrow Wights
Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘But his hope soon changed to bewilderment and alarm. The dark patches grew darker, but they shrank; and suddenly he saw, towering ominous before him and leaning slightly towards one another like the pillars of a headless door, two huge standing stones. He could not remember having seen any sign of these in the valley, when he looked out from the hill in the morning. He had passed between them almost before he was aware: and even as he did so darkness seemed to fall around him. His pony reared and snorted, and he fell off. When he looked back he found that he was alone: the others had not followed.’

The Hobbits first get split up in the fog and darkness that descends upon them.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘There was no reply. He stood listening. He was suddenly aware that it was getting very cold, and that up here a wind was beginning to blow, and icy wind. A change was coming in the weather. The mist was flowing past now in shreds and tatters.’

A bit too coincidental with the sudden coldness in the air, something common in not just Wight but other evil "magics".

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘“Where are you?” he cried again, both angry and afraid.

“Here!” said a voice, deep and cold, that seemed to come out of the ground. “I am waiting for you!”

“No! said Frodo, but he did not run away. His knees gave, and he fell on the ground. Nothing happened, and there was no sound. Trembling he looked up, in time to see a tall dark figure like a shadow against the stars. It leaned over him. He thought there were two eyes, very cold though lit with a pale light that seemed to come from some remote distance. Then a grip stronger and colder then iron seized him. The icy touch froze his bones, and he remembered no more.’

Frodo gets ambushed by a Wight, who apparently has a pretty nasty grip. The theme of coldness is again seen here and throughout.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘As he lay there, thinking and getting a hold of himself, he noticed all at once that the darkness was slowly giving way: a pale greenish light was growing round him. It did not show him what kind of a place he was in, for the light seemed to be coming out of himself, and from the floor beside him, and had not yet reached the roof or wall.’

Ghoulish light for ghouls.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘Suddenly a song began: a cold murmur, rising and falling. The voice seemed far away and immeasurably dreary, sometimes high in the air and thin, sometimes like a low moan from the ground. Out of the formless stream of sad but horrible sounds, strings of words would now and again shape themselves: grim, hard, cold words, heartless and miserable. The night was railing against the morning of which it was bereaved, and the cold was cursing the warmth for which it hungered. Frodo was chilled to the marrow. After a while the song became clearer, and with dread in his heart he perceived that it had changed into an incantation:

He heard behind his head a creaking and scraping sound. Raising himself on one arm he looked, and saw now in the pale light that they were in a kind of passage which behind them turned a corner. Round the corner a long arm was groping, walking on its fingers towards Sam, who was lying nearest, and towards the hilt of the sword that lay upon him.’

Again with the voices, but instead of a full body they send The Thing to kill them. The Hobbits are under some sleeping spell, probably brought on by the same Wight touch that knocked out Frodo, but why he came to first isn't clear. If you really want I can edit the song in.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘Suddenly resolve hardened in him, and he seized a short sword that lay beside him, and kneeling he stooped low over the bodies of his companions. With what strength he had he hewed at the crawling arm near the wrist, and the hand broke off; but at the same moment the sword splintered up to the hilt. There was a shriek and the light vanished. In the dark there was a snarling noise.’

The Wights seem to have the same 'anti-weapon' property that Ringwraiths have. One could chalk it up to the sword simply being very old, but that's unlikely, as the swords the Hobbits take from the same barrow are still in perfect condition due to some spell.

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘As Frodo left the barrow for the last time he thought he saw a severed hand wriggling still, like a wounded spider, in a heap of fallen earth. Tom went back in again, and there was the sound of much thumping and stamping.’

Included just because the thought of Tom stamping on some undead hand with his yellow boots was quite funny. :)

Fog on the Barrow-Downs wrote:
‘“What in the name of wonder?” began Merry, feeling the golden circlet that had slipped over one eye. Then he stopped, and a shadow came over his face, and he closed his eyes. “Of course, I remember!” he said. “The men of Carn Dûm came on us at night, and we were worsted. Ah! the spear in my heart!” He clutched at his breast. “No! No!” he said, opening his eyes. “What am I saying? I have been dreaming.”’

The spell the Hobbits were under seemed to have given them memories of the inhabitants; the appendices tell that the barrow they were stuck in belong to one of the last of Cardolan's (one of three splinter-states from Arnor) royalty. They also give the source of the Wights, having come out of Angmar after Cardolan was destroyed.



'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring


Last edited by Balrog on 2008-04-25 03:39pm, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-10-30 11:22am
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Sith Marauder
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The Barrow Wights seem to be, in many ways, "Ringwraiths Light".

They are somewhat insubstantial and shadowy, with glowing eyes. The Ringwraiths wear garments that give them greater ability to interact with the physical world, and which they are basically powerless without. The Wights may not be quite so separated from the physical world, allowing them to carry hobbits and such about without special garments.

Like Ringwraiths, they seem to destroy any weapon that touches them. The daggers that Tom gave the hobbits from the tomb were apparently crafted specifically to harm the Wights, which were supposedly sent by the Witch-King to trouble his enemies. One of these weapons ended up stabbing the Witch-King in the back of the leg, and this supposedly made him vulnerable to Eowyn's sword stroke through his head.

It doesn't seem too strange that the Witch-King might be able to somehow create lesser wraiths like himself to send against his enemies. Just how, however, is open to speculation.



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-10-30 11:27am
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Sith Marauder
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Forgot to mention it before, but I wonder if carrying the Ring gave Frodo some special resistance to the Wight's power, so that he woke up when the other hobbits didn't.



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-10-30 11:32am
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Sith Marauder
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Quote:
“What would they have done to me?” asked Frodo. “What were the Riders trying to do?”

“They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under their command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord…”

-Many Meetings, p. 217

I wonder if the origin of the Barrow Wights might lie in this description of the effects of Morgul Blades.



"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

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 Post subject:  PostPosted: 2007-10-30 01:01pm
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Balrog wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:
If Morgoth comes back, there's really nothing on Middle Earth that can stop him, except maybe the blue wizards, and god knows what they're up to.

Or maybe Radaghast. He'd be cool.


Radagast would be too busy tending his 'herbs' and talking to animals to bother ;)

And since there seems to be some confusion, perhaps it's best to post some quotes about the Blue Wizard's fate rather then go off hearsay?


Sorry, I never saw this post. The two blue wizards are Alatar and Pallandro. From the unfinished tales, Page 393:

Quote:
Only two came forward; Curumo [ Saruman ] and Alatar. Curumo was chosen by Aulë among "his" Maiar and Alatar was send by Oromë. Manwë asked where Olórin [ Gandalf ] was and Olórin just returned from a journey and coming to the meeting asked what he wanted from him and Manwë told that he wished him to go as the third to Middle-Earth. Olórin answered that he meant himself to weak for such a task and that he feared Sauron. Then Manwë said that that was all the more reason why he should go and he commanded him to go as the third. There Varda broke in and said "Not as the third". and Curumo remembered that. The tale ends with the statement that Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil [ Radagast ] with him to please Yavanna, Aulë`s wife and that Alatar took Pallando as a friend.


Now, their fates are interesting. At first, Alatar and Pallandro merely failed, but that changed a year before Tolkien died. The two were given Quenya names, Morinehtar and Rómestámo (or Rome(n)star), Darkness-slayer and East-helper. In the History of Middle Earth v. 12, they are said to have arrived not in the Third Age, but in the Second, around the year 1600, the time of the Forging of the One Ring. Their mission though was still to the east, to weaken the forces of Sauron. And it is here said that the Wizards far from failed; rather, they had a pivotal role in the victories of the West at the end of both the Second and the Third Ages. At the same time, Tolkien considered the possibility that Glorfindel may in fact have been one of them.

So, they might've been the unsung heroes of the second and third age, depending on when you ask Tolkien.



Stuart: The only problem is, I'm losing track of which universe I'm in.
You kinda look like Jesus. With a lightsaber.- Peregrin Toker
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