Dracula,vampires and sunlight

[PainRack]

I would just like to ask, when did the idea that vampires fear sunlight creep into the vampire myth? I just reread Bram Stroker Dracula and in that novel, Count Dracula was clearly capable of walking around in the bright sun. The only difference was when the sun was up, his form was limited and so were his powers.

One can argue that water was a even more deadlier charm to his powers, considering how its stated that he couldn't just simply cross over water barriers(hmmm, is this where Tolkien got his idea that the Nine Riders were couldn't just cross water?)

[Murazor]

In Tolkien's mythology, water was the domain of Ulmö, the only Vala that actively opposed Melkor until the War of the Wrath, and all of Melkor's creatures avoided water whenever possible. This appears, I think, in the early versions of the Silmarillion too (written many, many years before the Lord of the Rings). But it is entirely possible that Tolkien was inspired by cultural associations of water with purity.

[Majin Gojira]

Older myths and folklore all indicate that vamps either fear sunlight or are only active at night.

Vampires don't start with Stoker.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The sunlight = death idea came from F.W. Murnau's 1922 film Nosferatu, eine Symphonie des Grauens, as far as I know.

[PainRack]

Older myths and folklore all indicate that vamps either fear sunlight or are only active at night.

Vampires don't start with Stoker.

while vampires didn't start with Stoker, the older mythologies had them more as devil spawn. I doubt that the devil was afraid of broad daylight, although demonic activity as a rule only occured at night.

[loomer]

Personally, I've always taken a rather dim view of the idea. A vampire may be pale, sure, but turning into ash at the sight of the sun? Not likely. I've been more the type to believe they merely have limited powers during the day, are unable to assume forms or utilize all their additional, unnatural abilities. Perhaps they get sunburnt more easily because they stop producing melanin? Maybe they don't.

[Darth Raptor]

Personally, I've always taken a rather dim view of the idea. A vampire may be pale, sure, but turning into ash at the sight of the sun? Not likely. I've been more the type to believe they merely have limited powers during the day, are unable to assume forms or utilize all their additional, unnatural abilities. Perhaps they get sunburnt more easily because they stop producing melanin? Maybe they don't.

This is difficult to answer because "vampire" includes a ridiculously broad range of fictional creatures. A melanin deficiency is plausible, but like you said that would only result in sunburn and eventually skin cancer.

I can't remember where I heard it, but the lethal ingredient in sunlight seems to be the ultraviolet radiation. UV light is murder on weak chemical bonds like those found in DNA. Nucleic acids are exposed during cell division, and since most vampires have rapid healing and shape-shifting properties I would bet that their DNA is rarely safely contained in cellular nuclei. The shape-shifting is a problem too, because the variable nature of the vampire's molecular structure would make it easy for UV radiation to break it down.

In some franchises, vampirism is caused by a pathogen of some kind. It could be that UV radiation simply kills the pathogen. In vampires who are sustained by magic, the sunlight weakness could be a deliberately incorporated part of the curse.

[SecondStorm]

Older myths and folklore all indicate that vamps either fear sunlight or are only active at night.

Vampires don't start with Stoker.

while vampires didn't start with Stoker, the older mythologies had them more as devil spawn. I doubt that the devil was afraid of broad daylight, although demonic activity as a rule only occured at night.

Actually the "modern" concept of Vampires didnt start with Stoker but with John Polidori and his "The Vampyre".
Whether or not "The Vampyre" could stand sunlight though I dont recall, its been a few years since I read it.

[Majin Gojira]

This is difficult to answer because "vampire" includes a ridiculously broad range of fictional creatures.

Which is why I yell "Just because it's nocturnal and sucks blood does NOT mean it's a goddamn Vampire!"

[Stark]

I love people who think 'dying in sunlight' is silly, but all the other vampire powers are oh so serious. Give me a break: it's silly fantasy, and in silly fantasy the sun can kill vampires. You know, the sun as a symbol for holy light, god, judgement, all that? Their cursed existence?

But you're right. Vampires can change shape and live forever, but them being killed by sunlight is just ABSURD.

[Plekhanov]

I think the sun thing is popular because it makes for more balanced dramatic story lines, just look at the powers commonly given to vampires; super strength & speed, invulnerability to many weapons, flight, immortality, mind control over people & animals, shape changing, regeneration from injury… the sunlight thing gives them a very significant weakness and balances things out a little.

Personally, I've always taken a rather dim view of the idea. A vampire may be pale, sure, but turning into ash at the sight of the sun? Not likely. I've been more the type to believe they merely have limited powers during the day, are unable to assume forms or utilize all their additional, unnatural abilities. Perhaps they get sunburnt more easily because they stop producing melanin? Maybe they don't.

so ‘but turning into ash at the sight of the sun’ is ‘not likely’ but everything else to do with the vampire myth is? Vampires are fucking magic ‘likely’ has nothing to do with it.

[Gil Hamilton]

Given that John sees Dracula walking around London during the day, it's pretty clear that Dracula isn't that messed up by sunlight. However, I think the rule is that Dracula isn't superpowered during the day.

[Plekhanov]

Given that John sees Dracula walking around London during the day, it's pretty clear that Dracula isn't that messed up by sunlight. However, I think the rule is that Dracula isn't superpowered during the day.

iirc correctly he was still extremely strong during the day but couldn't change his shape, can't remember how it affected his other abilities, didn't he still use mind control during the day?

[Stark]

I think he did - he influenced the boat captain. I don't have my copy handy, and it MAY have been in the evening.

[lgot]

Vampyre of Polidori did not died with sunlight - neither he was moderm, it was some gothic crazy dude. Dracula is really the moderm vampire, but modernity is something from the time of my grandparents.

There was a kind of vampiric creatured from orient that could not cross water -but Hardly Stoker invented it from there. There is however some old traditions about clear water springs to be home of good spirits and evil spirits would avoid it. So, he many have improved there (just like he did with the thing of sleeping in the home soil).
The sun really seems to be from the Classic Nosferatu and then introduced in later Dracula versions since the Dracula we know is rather Lee and Lugosi dracula than stoker.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

The sun really seems to be from the Classic Nosferatu

Yeah, thank you, I already said that.

[Dooey Jo]

Yes, vampires bursting into flames from sunlight are much more common in film and TV. I think the fact that it looks "dramatic" has much to do with it. Plekhanov's idea could also be quite valid, that the writers make their vampires to powerful for their protagonists so they need some kind of weakness to exploit. Hell, even Stoker himself had to make Dracula stupid, for the heroes to be able to kill him... Of course, nowadays the sunlight vulnerability seem sort of unnecessary, considering how easy it seems to be to kill the vampires in certain series. Seems like any idiot can show a stake to a vampire, and the vampire'll spontaneously turn to dust...

As for not being able cross running water, that is a trait found among many kinds of "evil things". I'm not sure why, but I guess it possible that running water represents some kind of purity or cleanlyness, which the unclean demons cannot stand...

[ray245]

can fire kill them?

[Majin Gojira]

can fire kill them?

Classically, many of the destruction rituals involved burning the corpses.

[Dooey Jo]

can fire kill them?

Classically, many of the destruction rituals involved burning the corpses.

And sometimes also spreading the ashes in running water, curiously enough...


I found another idea here, that the water = bad thing is due to much the same reason that a vampire does not cast reflections. That is, they have no soul, or rather, their body has no soul, as it is out wandering somewhere else. There was a belief that even normal people's souls would leave the body when they were sleeping or unconscious, and therefore they covered all water containers and such at night, so that the soul would not fall into the water and drown. And that's what would happen to a vampire or any other evil spirit (the vampires were more thought of like some kind of spirits that haunted people, and not really physical) when they crossed water; they would get trapped and drown.

Of course, it is a little strange that reflections would be that dangerous and that spirits can drown, but then again, we are talking mostly about medieval peasants here. Though the idea that the soul would leave the body during sleep, I wonder if that's lived on through the myth that you should never wake a sleepwalker, because he might then become mad (because his soul is actually somewhere else)...

[Elfdart]

Most bogeys, trolls, pixies, brownies, ghosts and other monsters from folklore only come out at night because nobody sees them during the day. Night is always considered the favorite time for monsters because humans have a natural fear of the dark, probably because real life predators often hunt at night. But real creatures of the night like wolves and bats can and do move about by day, so if evil spirits and other critters are never seen, it must be because sunlight is dangerous for them in one way or another -anything from losing special powers to death.

Stoker was as much influenced by Irish and Scottish folklore as Romanian. Dracula's brides are clearly patterned after the Baobhan Sith, the White Women of the highlands who came out at night to attack travellers by appearing as beautiful girls to entice their victims and sucking their blood. The difference is the White Women were repelled by iron instead of crosses or garlic.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=506750

One Scottish tale about the baobhan sith begins with four men on a hunting trip playing music and dancing and dancing by their campfire one night. Three danced and one played. One of them expressed the wish that they had some young ladies to dance with. Suddenly four beautiful women wearing green dresses came in out of the dark. Three of these women began immediately to dance with the three dancing men. The fourth stood next to the one who was playing the music. The music player became alarmed when he saw blood dripping from his comrades onto the ground. He fled to where they had their horses tied and hid under them. The lady wh had been standing next to him pursued him but she was repelled by the iron in the horseshoes. She circled around until dawn. After the sun rose, he found the dead bodies of his friends. There was not a drop of blood left in them.

[lgot]

But do not forget than The relation between Vampires and reflexes was also from Stoker, who did not had much about soul in his work. It most likely that he picked a traditional trait (the mirrors) and added it without having any relation with the crossing of water.

That remind me of one old ghosbuster than they are between a werewolf and vampire fight in an island and the only thing they do is breaking the only bridge, since the fight would went with all vampires bitting the werewolves and vice-versa...

[SecondStorm]

Vampyre of Polidori did not died with sunlight - neither he was moderm, it was some gothic crazy dude. Dracula is really the moderm vampire, but modernity is something from the time of my grandparents.

My definition of modern Vampire is human in appearance, suave but still with immense powers.

[Majin Gojira]

Dracula was also killed by being stabbed with a Kurki, just for the record.

[lgot]

Vampyre of Polidori did not died with sunlight - neither he was moderm, it was some gothic crazy dude. Dracula is really the moderm vampire, but modernity is something from the time of my grandparents.

My definition of modern Vampire is human in appearance, suave but still with immense powers.

Understood, but is is hard to get a typical romantic character to be called moderm. Fair enough but Rutheven was bit a exagerate version of Byron.
The romantic poets also predate Polidori in the transformation of the a bit smarter zoombies into eeire and more social characters (a bit when mixed with faery like characters and themes) with Goethe (Bride of Corinth - which was bit mix with greek theme, like Keats did with Lamia), Colerdige Cristabel or even La Belle Dame sans Merci by Keats.