LOTR Sub

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-07-29 11:01pm

Lets say that Gondor's military gets replaced by the German Army, from just before the Franco-Prussian War. Can they defend Gondor from the orc horde? What about attacking Mordor afterwards?

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-30 12:20am

Can you say "Blitzkreig"?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-30 01:08am

isnt that several million troops?

Post by **Gandalf** » 2003-07-30 01:57am

Wasn't Germany formed after that war?

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-07-30 02:04am

Wasn't Germany formed after that war?

It was? Ok, just Prussia then. Id thought they formed before, since otherwise it meant Prussian troops would have to move through a couple kingdoms.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-07-30 02:10am

It's fairly simple.

Firearms > Orcish armor.

The Prussian cavalry and infantry will quite literally mop the floor with the Orc hordes, as long as they have a good stock of ammunition...

The Duchess of Zeon · Post by **The Duchess of Zeon** » 2003-07-30 03:16am

Jadeite wrote:
It was? Ok, just Prussia then. Id thought they formed before, since otherwise it meant Prussian troops would have to move through a couple kingdoms.

Prussia was the head of the North German League from 1866-1871, which included several States which were still independent but closely tied to it. The southern States in this period were bound to it through secret alliances which were activated when the Franco-Prussian War started.

lux · Post by **lux** » 2003-07-30 03:36am

The Orcs would get pwned. Simple as that.

Companion Cube · Post by **Companion Cube** » 2003-07-30 03:53am

The German Army would wipe the floor with the Orcs.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-30 09:24am

I think you gentlemen have forgotten that the Battle for Gondor was a SEIGE, not a field battle.

Gondor's army was surrounded by the mixed orc/dark human hordes. The army was led by the WitchKing, whose aura was such that the Gondor men were falling down with fear. The only reason why Sauron's horde didn't take the city that day was because Gandalf faced down the WitchKing at the broken gates... and the next day the Roharim(sp?) came to break the seige.
However, the situation was getting dire, with supplies low and morale falling. Worse, the Stewart of Gondor was insane, having fallen under the shadow of Sauron, and even tried to kill himself and his son!

Now, the Prussian army did have gunpower and canon, which would be better than the arrows, boiling oil, and other weapons the Gondor men had available. But if they are subbing for the force, they would be under the same leadership, supply situation, and intense dread from the Seige.

I think they would still need the help of the Roharim in order to win.

CJvR · Post by **CJvR** » 2003-07-30 12:02pm

The Prussians mobilized about 650000 men for that war, not all the Orcs in Morgul and Mordor combined with the Easteners and Southeners in suppotr would be able to force an opposed crossing against that strenght.

The Nazguls and other magics would be the only hope for Sauron but it isn't that reliable in Tolkien's world, unlike a rifle shot.

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2003-07-30 12:21pm

LadyTevar wrote:I think you gentlemen have forgotten that the Battle for Gondor was a SEIGE, not a field battle.

Well actually a series of field battles that turned into a seige which was relieved by a field battle.

Gondor's army was surrounded by the mixed orc/dark human hordes. The army was led by the WitchKing, whose aura was such that the Gondor men were falling down with fear. The only reason why Sauron's horde didn't take the city that day was because Gandalf faced down the WitchKing at the broken gates... and the next day the Roharim(sp?) came to break the seige.

Breaking the spirit of men who are outnumbered and overmatched isn't a great achievement. And even then men were able to resist the WK's aura. Faramir for example was able to help the men under his command resist the effects. The Prussian forces will be composed of a far more professional force and are likely to resist the effects better than Gondorian militia.

In the force sub before they can even put Minas Tirith under seige they are going to have to force a crossing of the Anduin and the Pelenor outer wall against a force that outnumbers them and is equiped with rifles and artilery.

However, the situation was getting dire, with supplies low and morale falling. Worse, the Stewart of Gondor was insane, having fallen under the shadow of Sauron, and even tried to kill himself and his son!

Now, the Prussian army did have gunpower and canon, which would be better than the arrows, boiling oil, and other weapons the Gondor men had available. But if they are subbing for the force, they would be under the same leadership, supply situation, and intense dread from the Seige.

I think they would still need the help of the Roharim in order to win.

So you are saying that a force of millions with rifles, early machineguns and artilery are going to need to be rescued by a few thousand spearmen on horseback? Excuse me but that is one of the silliest things I have ever read. This is as one sided of force-sub as I have seen. The Prussians take it in a slaughter.

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2003-07-30 12:23pm

CJvR wrote:The Prussians mobilized about 650000 men for that war,

That few? I thought the total was closer to 1.2 million.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-30 12:38pm

Bartman wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:
I think they would still need the help of the Roharim in order to win.
So you are saying that a force of millions with rifles, early machineguns and artilery are going to need to be rescued by a few thousand spearmen on horseback? Excuse me but that is one of the silliest things I have ever read. This is as one sided of force-sub as I have seen. The Prussians take it in a slaughter.

My pardon, I was assuming the Prussian force was equal to the Gondor militia. I had not seen a number given for the Prussian forces.

I still stand by my statement that the Roharim were necessary to break Sauron's forces from the rear in order for the final field battle to be won. Otherwise, the WitchKing survives.

You do recall that the WitchKing cannot be killed by the hand of man... right?

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-30 12:39pm

Damn those sexist Prussians!

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-30 12:45pm

SirNitram wrote:Damn those sexist Prussians!

*Looks at the addition to SirNitram's siggie*

And you call the Prussians sexist?

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2003-07-30 02:47pm

LadyTevar wrote:I still stand by my statement that the Roharim were necessary to break Sauron's forces from the rear in order for the final field battle to be won. Otherwise, the WitchKing survives.

You do recall that the WitchKing cannot be killed by the hand of man... right?

"Will not" not "cannot." Glofindal's full prophesy is:
"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
He does not have some super invulerability, after all we have detailed descriptions of what happens when his 'flesh is pierced.' In much the same way that you can't give Kirk immunity in debates because we know he dies in Generations, you can't just assume that the Witch King is invulnerable.

And even if the prophesy is still in effect. We know he can be effectively crippled. After the flood at the Ford of Bruinen the ringwraiths were made "empty and shapless." Gandalf also described them as "unhorsed and unmasked." While we don't know precisely what is meant by these terms, but it was sufficiently debilitating as they were obliged to return to Sauron to have their condition restored. They couldn't just go to Bree and get new horses and clothing. Now if a flash flood can effectively cripple them, I'm sure that a few thousand explosive shells will do likewise.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-30 03:47pm

Bartman wrote: That few? I thought the total was closer to 1.2 million.

Prussia forces only might have been 650,000, the combine German forces deployed for the Franco Prussian war totaled 1,183,389 officers and men.

Even a few regiments of German infantry could defend Minas Tirith. The whole of the combine German armies with over a million men and thousands of field and siege guns would go on the offensive and annihilate everything they faced.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-30 03:51pm

LadyTevar wrote: I still stand by my statement that the Roharim were necessary to break Sauron's forces from the rear in order for the final field battle to be won. Otherwise, the WitchKing survives.

The Germans have a couple corps of Calvary with rifles and artillery available you know, they alone probably outnumber all existing human forces with dozens of times the combat power.

You do recall that the WitchKing cannot be killed by the hand of man... right?

So what? One guy isn't much threat to a million men and they can always lock him in a cage and throw it into the ocean.

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-30 04:39pm

Bartman wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:I still stand by my statement that the Roharim were necessary to break Sauron's forces from the rear in order for the final field battle to be won. Otherwise, the WitchKing survives.

You do recall that the WitchKing cannot be killed by the hand of man... right?
"Will not" not "cannot." Glofindal's full prophesy is:
"Do not pursue him! He will not return to this land. Far off yet is his doom, and not by the hand of man will he fall."
He does not have some super invulerability, after all we have detailed descriptions of what happens when his 'flesh is pierced.' In much the same way that you can't give Kirk immunity in debates because we know he dies in Generations, you can't just assume that the Witch King is invulnerable.

On the field, when Eowyn is facing him down over her uncle's body, the WitchKing himself states he cannot die by man's hand, and she answers that she is no man. Merry (?) at this time hamstrings the WitchKing, which allows Eowyn the killing blow.
Of course, this leaves both Merry(?) and Eowyn in comas

And even if the prophesy is still in effect. We know he can be effectively crippled. After the flood at the Ford of Bruinen the ringwraiths were made "empty and shapless." Gandalf also described them as "unhorsed and unmasked." While we don't know precisely what is meant by these terms, but it was sufficiently debilitating as they were obliged to return to Sauron to have their condition restored. They couldn't just go to Bree and get new horses and clothing. Now if a flash flood can effectively cripple them, I'm sure that a few thousand explosive shells will do likewise.

Cripple them, but not kill.

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-30 07:04pm

LadyTevar wrote: Cripple them, but not kill.

So please explain how this one person being merely crippled deny victory to the Germans who will easily destroy his and all other armies in the field along with all fortifications.

Fact is it wont, if he where powerful enough to beat a million Germans with rifles, then the WitchKing wouldn't have needed a huge army and siege weapons to beat a few tens of thousands of sword armed men.

Bartman · Post by **Bartman** » 2003-07-30 07:42pm

LadyTevar wrote:On the field, when Eowyn is facing him down over her uncle's body, the WitchKing himself states he cannot die by man's hand, and she answers that she is no man.

Um... No, he doesn't. Would you please actually read the book and provide real quotes from it rather than these vague ones you are making up. Precise phrasing matters. The actual quote you are refering to is, "Hinder me? Thou fool. No living man may hinder me!"
And he is plainly wrong as Aragorn had already significantly hindered him in Fellowship. And even if the quote was as you stated it wouldn't make much difference as he was not the one to make the prophecy, nor was he present when it was made. Even if he had said that no man could kill him, it may have been that he just missunderstood the prophesy when it was finally told to him third hand. As I have already provided an acurate version of the prophesy, we don't really need to know what the WK thinks of it.

And before you improperly quote it, here is the third quote (from the same chapter).
"For her shield-arm was broken by the Mace of the Witch king, but he was brought to nothing, and thus the words of Glorfindel long before to King Earnur were fullfilled, that the Witch King would not fall by the hand of man. For it is said that in this deed Eowyn had the aid of Theoden's esqyure and that he also was not a Man but a halfling out of a far country..."

Once again the same phrasology is used will/would not can/could. I'm afraid you're going to have to do better than a few missunderstood quotes, if you want to convince me that the WK is somehow invulnerable to the arms of hundreds of thousands of Prussians.

Jadeite · Post by **Jadeite** » 2003-07-30 08:54pm

What about taking the tower of Barad-dur? Assuming its what it looks like in the movie, the fortress is rather large and heavily defended, with only a few paths to it..

Post by **Sea Skimmer** » 2003-07-30 09:42pm

Jadeite wrote:What about taking the tower of Barad-dur? Assuming its what it looks like in the movie, the fortress is rather large and heavily defended, with only a few paths to it..

The movie version looks cool but is I don't see how it could exist, where is all the lava pouring into the moat draining away to for starter?. The book gives basically no details, but we do know that the elves and men besieged and eventually captured and destroyed it in the last war.

Anyway even the uber movie version wouldn't last long against German siege guns, though it could take them some time to bring them and there ammunition into action without a railway. Though building a railway wouldn't that that longs either. Once they arrived the guns would easily demolish the thing, fire directed at the base would easily drop large sections into the moat and probably topple the main tower as well, if it falls a lot of the place is going to be crushed. Even before that field guns can easily shoot across the moat and smash down smaller towers even breach walls.

Really, artillery two hundred years older then the rifled steel breach loaders with exploding shells the Germans have could destroy any stone fortification and made such fortress obsolete, and they could do so using only a few dozen guns in an entire besieging army. The German army has thousands of field guns, each more powerful then the heavy guns that made stone castles obsolete. And there hundreds of pieces of dedicated siege artillery and mortars are massively more powerful. It would be yet another on sided massacre favoring the Germans, it just might take a few weeks or maybe months depending on how easily siege guns and all forms of artillery ammunition can be brought up.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-07-30 09:57pm

About the only way I can see Sauron stopping the Prussian Army is if he triggered a well-aimed pyroclastic flow from Mt. Doom. Unfortunately for him, a pyroclastic flow would also wind up wiping out his own army.