What shall we do with the Wheel of Time?

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-25 01:07pm

...What shall we do with the Wheel of Time?
Ear-lie in the mornin'?

Okay, so Wheel of Time: most people agree that it started out gang-busters, and then at some point between books 3 and 7 started to suck, move the overarching along with all the speed and grandure of a leporous sloth, and spending generally too much time with trite sexism or describing dresses, and not enough with inspiring wonder or blowing shit up.

What, hypothetically, would you do to save the series from itself? Or, since RJ is more or less unstoppable at this point, infintessimally less hypothetiaclly: should be done to salvage the series after (if) it's over: for movies, whatever.

...slit 'im in the gut with a rusty sabre...

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-07-25 01:11pm

I'd say ending it...though I'm going to have to read from Lord of Chaos to know...since I've only sporadically read some of it.

As for movies...I dunno...the cast of needed people is enourmous, and the extras will get increasingly confusing.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-25 01:14pm

Kill it dead. The whole problem with WoT is that it's been over-exploited. TOR(or whoever publishes that crap) is over-greedy and letting Jordan get away with 800 pages of nothing.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-07-25 01:28pm

Burn it! BURN IT!!!

COMMENCE BURNiNATION

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-25 01:52pm

JediNeophyte wrote:Burn it! BURN IT!!!

COMMENCE BURNiNATION

I was looking more for improvements. (Though you could certainly frame a pretty good argument that that would be one)

Shortie · Post by **Shortie** » 2003-07-25 02:16pm

Build a fort, like with walls and towers and everything.

More seriously, it's pretty much done by now. Too long, too rambling, too vague. If he'd put all his ideas into say half a dozen books, (with a clear end to the first trilogy) it could have been really good.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-25 02:58pm

The best thing that could be done is find a ball busting editor with big brass ones to ride herd on Jordan. The story isn't flawed but he tends to run on when given the chance.

I might be on of the few people to say so, but I still like Wheel of Time. It has slowed, but I read one through nine all at once and reading them straight through is a lot better than waiting.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-25 03:06pm

I stopped reading after the Lord of Chaos. Seriouly after about Book 4 - it started declining after book 2 really - it slwoly started to become unreadable. I KNOW what Jordan is shooting for, he wants a truly grand epic. The problem is that he doesn;t have the chops for it. I could care less what sort of tailoring a dress has, or what color stitching his shirt has or the various accents and dialects.

Tolkien created a living breathing fantasy world rich in such detail in just three books. I lost count where he is, and I got SICVK AND TIRED of teh Dragon defetaing the shadow at the end of one book only to discover that it was just a manifestation of teh shadow itself and not the Great Darkness itself and the description of weaving the Source was REALLY starting to get to me.

The plot has slowed down to the point of molasses and quite frankly no longer care what is happeining in the story.

End this bastard already, though frankly not many of the fans that started on board are there for the finish.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-25 03:21pm

Stormbringer wrote:The best thing that could be done is find a ball busting editor with big brass ones to ride herd on Jordan. The story isn't flawed but he tends to run on when given the chance.

I might be on of the few people to say so, but I still like Wheel of Time. It has slowed, but I read one through nine all at once and reading them straight through is a lot better than waiting.

(Since you're probably right that a lot of people will disagree) I'll go on the record as agreeing with you; it's no where near the level that it could be, but it's still a darn good read. I actually feel that the series has been perking up a little with the last two books (Winter's Heart & Crossroads of Twilight) were better than the two before them in that things actually sort of happened, but it's true: a good editor could have made the last four books into about one and a half.

Sad that there is no editor on Earth so mighty...

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-25 03:22pm

Stormbringer wrote:I might be on of the few people to say so, but I still like Wheel of Time. It has slowed, but I read one through nine all at once and reading them straight through is a lot better than waiting.

I still like it too. Then again I also can find reason to like the Sword of Truth series and several others, including Shannara. Even if they aren't perfect (which they aren't.)

Matter of taste of course. Like how some of you obsess over Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion even though they're not the best IMHO

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-25 03:23pm

Stravo wrote: Tolkien created a living breathing fantasy world rich in such detail in just three books. I lost count where he is, and I got SICVK AND TIRED of teh Dragon defetaing the shadow at the end of one book only to discover that it was just a manifestation of teh shadow itself and not the Great Darkness itself and the description of weaving the Source was REALLY starting to get to me.

Have you ever checked a Tolkien shelf at a bookstore? Three books my virgin ass.

Sriad · Post by **Sriad** » 2003-07-25 03:26pm

Stravo wrote:...Tolkien created a living breathing fantasy world rich in such detail in just three books. I lost count where he is, and I got SICVK AND TIRED of teh Dragon defetaing the shadow at the end of one book only to discover that it was just a manifestation of teh shadow itself and not the Great Darkness itself...

That's something that a really good writer (or Jordan with the Editor of Stupendous Might and Magnitude) would have done better; staged the showdowns so that the 'Al Thor and company thought they were facing the Dark One, but the readers could tell from fairly early on that it was just an underling and the real Power is only just stirring... It's called Dramatic Irony! It's a good thing.

Brother-Captain Gaius · Post by **Brother-Captain Gaius** » 2003-07-25 03:39pm

I've read most of Winter's Heart. Yuck.

It was all right at first, even fairly interesting. The "magic" was a little too unorthodox for my liking but I could live with it. But as the book went on it began to Suckify in an absolutely XTREME manner. Dumb crap in location #4, then some dumb crap in location #7, then the dumb plights of dumb person #5686.

And what the fuck? "She is Aes Sedai". DUDE! DROPPING ARTICLES FOR NO APPARANT REASON MAKES YOUR FANTASY WORLD COOL AND ORIGINAL!!!!!!!11

[/rantage]

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-07-25 06:56pm

Id have hemlock and I write the plot.

vast armies, vast magic, and a 2nd breaking of the world.

oh. yeah.

LT.Hit-Man · Post by **LT.Hit-Man** » 2003-07-25 10:02pm

Mmm strip it to it's hub?
replace that front left whell on your car?

Post by **LadyTevar** » 2003-07-25 10:13pm

I gave up after Book 4.

Right now, I could care less. Unlike George R.R. Martin's Song of Fire and Ice, after book three Wheel of Time had lost all my interest in the characters. If I can't understand and empathize with the characters, I can't enjoy the book.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-25 10:32pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Stravo wrote: Tolkien created a living breathing fantasy world rich in such detail in just three books. I lost count where he is, and I got SICVK AND TIRED of teh Dragon defetaing the shadow at the end of one book only to discover that it was just a manifestation of teh shadow itself and not the Great Darkness itself and the description of weaving the Source was REALLY starting to get to me.
Have you ever checked a Tolkien shelf at a bookstore? Three books my virgin ass.

And the remainder is all either unrelated, or Tolkien's notes, which Chris published after his death. Tolkien intended The Lord of the Rings to stand on its own, without additional material.

SylasGaunt · Post by **SylasGaunt** » 2003-07-25 10:33pm

I'll go on the record with storm as saying I still like WoT. The only thing they need is a better editor to help streamline things a bit.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-25 10:35pm

SylasGaunt wrote:I'll go on the record with storm as saying I still like WoT. The only thing they need is a better editor to help streamline things a bit.

WoT needs to END. You can't have an epic without an ending, otherwise it's just a long ramble of books.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-25 10:36pm

It's nice to have the idea of a true wheel of time, where no matter how far you go you get to the beginning...

BUT YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO WRITE IN SUCH A CIRCLE.

Connor MacLeod · Post by **Connor MacLeod** » 2003-07-25 11:16pm

Iceberg wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:
Stravo wrote: Tolkien created a living breathing fantasy world rich in such detail in just three books. I lost count where he is, and I got SICVK AND TIRED of teh Dragon defetaing the shadow at the end of one book only to discover that it was just a manifestation of teh shadow itself and not the Great Darkness itself and the description of weaving the Source was REALLY starting to get to me.
Have you ever checked a Tolkien shelf at a bookstore? Three books my virgin ass.
And the remainder is all either unrelated, or Tolkien's notes, which Chris published after his death. Tolkien intended The Lord of the Rings to stand on its own, without additional material.

Like hell. You have to read other books to get a remote fucking clue about whats going on (like with the Elves, for example.) LOTR makes references that only make sense if you've read the other books.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-07-25 11:18pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:
Iceberg wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote: Have you ever checked a Tolkien shelf at a bookstore? Three books my virgin ass.
And the remainder is all either unrelated, or Tolkien's notes, which Chris published after his death. Tolkien intended The Lord of the Rings to stand on its own, without additional material.
Like hell. You have to read other books to get a remote fucking clue about whats going on (like with the Elves, for example.) LOTR makes references that only make sense if you've read the other books.

All you need is the appendixes that are already attached at the end of ROTK. IF you want to delve deeper you can go read more but the whole story and all you need to understand it is in those three novels.

Sindai · Post by **Sindai** » 2003-07-25 11:53pm

Connor MacLeod wrote:Like hell. You have to read other books to get a remote fucking clue about whats going on (like with the Elves, for example.) LOTR makes references that only make sense if you've read the other books.

Strange, LotR made sense to me when I was about twelve.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-25 11:55pm

Sindai wrote:
Connor MacLeod wrote:Like hell. You have to read other books to get a remote fucking clue about whats going on (like with the Elves, for example.) LOTR makes references that only make sense if you've read the other books.
Strange, LotR made sense to me when I was about twelve.

Me as well.

BTW, Gandalf looked EXACTLY as I always imagined him to look.

HemlockGrey · Post by **HemlockGrey** » 2003-07-26 01:55am

Interestingly enough, I think Jordan started writing WoT before I was even born, or shortly thereafter.