D&D vs Harry Potter - Get Real!

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-15 08:53am

Okay, I can't stand it anymore, my rant begins.

To all those who like to see the comparisons between D&D Wizards and Harry Potter Wizards...have you ever read the books?

What is a D&D Wizard? Someone in that ruleset that can cast spells, they are combat oriented (80%+ of the spells are designed to hurt, kill, incapacitate, etc). They are not your average folk, they are heroes and villians.

What is a Harry Potter Wizard? Someone who was born a wizard and has gaduated Hogwarts or another magic school. These people are regular joes in their world, most spend their days working jobs or taking care of the home. They are not heroes, but commoners with magical ability. Some of them, such as Hit Mages have focused on combat abilities but they are the exception to the rule. Most spells are clandestine in nature, though there are a few defensive and offensive spells. The most destructive spells are known as "unforgivable curses" and using them will land you a stay in prison.

Keep in mind these things when you are comparing the two worlds. D&D wizards, for the most part, is combat oriented. These people are capable of causing massive amounts of death, destruction, and mayhem. Harry Potter wizards are, for the most part, non-combatants. They are commonly found working long hours in shops and offices, housekeeping, and teaching. They have not been trained in art of war, but should have some degree of defensive skills.

So when you are comparing a Morgoth the 10th level Evoker; Master of the Flames and Butcher of Bashet to Mrs. Arthur Weasley; home-maker, wife to Mr. Weasely, and mother of 6 children.
Is my irritation with these comparisons starting to make sense here? We have in one corner a wizard who spends his days researching deadly spells versus a wizard who spends her free time baking cookies for her half-dozen kids.

Iceberg · Post by **Iceberg** » 2003-07-15 10:58am

Whatever.

Wanker.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-07-15 12:43pm

Well, technically most of the D&D wizards are small level 2-3 utility wizards with spells to help with the harvest or to build a house (that's what I remember from the 2e manual) with mainly the PCs being the "Fry, freeze, and demolish" type. I would say that either side is as combat oriented as the spells they choose to learn.

Besides, 10th level wizards are extremely rare.

DPDarkPrimus · Post by **DPDarkPrimus** » 2003-07-15 12:51pm

I think that, in the normal world, being a Harry Potter-type wizard would be more convienient, though...

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-15 01:28pm

Yogi wrote:Well, technically most of the D&D wizards are small level 2-3 utility wizards with spells to help with the harvest or to build a house (that's what I remember from the 2e manual)

Okay now I want you to go through the standard spell list as presented in the PH and give me a list of spells that would be useful for such a task. head on over to www.opengamingfoundation.org and browse the SRD's spells.

...You aren't going to find many...

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-15 02:21pm

Steven Snyder wrote:
Yogi wrote:Well, technically most of the D&D wizards are small level 2-3 utility wizards with spells to help with the harvest or to build a house (that's what I remember from the 2e manual)
Okay now I want you to go through the standard spell list as presented in the PH and give me a list of spells that would be useful for such a task. head on over to www.opengamingfoundation.org and browse the SRD's spells.

...You aren't going to find many...

Ummm, how many role players are going to want to harvest fields in their game? I mean, it's a game and designed to be fun. D&D might have lots minor wizards that do that, but whoses going to play them?

And yes, comparing Harry Potter to D&D is the proverbial apples to oranges. So what? If some one wants to compare them why get so worked up about it? People are free to debate what ever they wish here. Those fanboys that bitch when their favorites lose are not exactly looked on kindly.

TheFeniX · Post by **TheFeniX** » 2003-07-15 04:55pm

DPDarkPrimus wrote:I think that, in the normal world, being a Harry Potter-type wizard would be more convienient, though...

Why? I'd love to be able to fireball the next jackass who cuts me off in traffic.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-07-15 05:00pm

Stormbringer wrote: And yes, comparing Harry Potter to D&D is the proverbial apples to oranges. So what? If some one wants to compare them why get so worked up about it? People are free to debate what ever they wish here. Those fanboys that bitch when their favorites lose are not exactly looked on kindly.

My real complaint is that D&D wizards are so inflexable compared to Harry Potter Wizards, Simon Greens, Mecedes Lackys, Harnmaster, Palladium Fantasy, and Rifts Wizards. Flexability becomes more important than how powerful some spells are.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-15 05:46pm

Stormbringer wrote:Ummm, how many role players are going to want to harvest fields in their game? I mean, it's a game and designed to be fun. D&D might have lots minor wizards that do that, but whoses going to play them?

I don't know how many roleplayers are going to want to harvest their fields, but there are already skills in the system to allow you to do that. So obviously the game designers already took care of that aspect. Yet, even though there are skills to do it, there are few spells to do it, and those that do exist are high-level.

And yes, comparing Harry Potter to D&D is the proverbial apples to oranges. So what? If some one wants to compare them why get so worked up about it?

You just said the reason, Harry Potter and D&D wizards are completely different animals, and few people seem to grasp this. Comparing the two is like comparing the Galactic Empire and NASA...you know who is going to win.

People are free to debate what ever they wish here. Those fanboys that bitch when their favorites lose are not exactly looked on kindly.

Don't assume that I am a HP fanboy who is upset that the pro D&D crowd is having a field-day with HP comparisons. I am keenly aware that D&D mages are killing machines who would tear through Hogwarts in an afternoon, and BBQ the staff for dinner that night.

If someone wants to compare the two, fine. But at least take the time to make it an interesting, pitting an 11 year old first-year Hogwarts student who is studying to be a gardener against a 17+ year old 1st level Wizard who is focused on combat is a bad comparison.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-07-15 06:41pm

Please, I dug the 2e manual out of the mothballs and it STATES that most local wizards will have primarily "usefull" spells. Besides, why fill the manual with things a player will never do? Notice that there is an entire chapter on combat, but no chapter on large scale engineering ventures. Does that mean that the engineers in the D&D-verse suck? No (at least, not in trap making).

Besides, all it takes is a few months training to turn a bunch of "kids" into a semi-formidanle fighting force. This is getting a few hours per week. If they were able to practice 8 hours a day, it would have been a matter of weeks. This is opposed to the time spent researching spells. These are kids who can spit out "Sleep", "Hold Monster", "Silence" and "Telekenesis" as fast as they can say the words.

Did I mension that these are kids taught by kids? Think of a professional Aurer. Heck, even Wormtail was able to blast throught the street into the sewers. Put THAT in your calculator.

Bottom line, most D&D mages are the stay at home and cast spells for money type. They won't be decked for war, nor will they carry around 6 fully charged wands. Against Random Potter-verse Housewife, I don't think that the fight is all that unbalenced.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2003-07-15 08:22pm

Kitsune wrote:Rifts

AAAAAHH!

Darth_Shinji · Post by **Darth_Shinji** » 2003-07-15 10:35pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Kitsune wrote:Rifts
AAAAAHH!

Well, If you count all the different types of magic you can find in Rifts, then yes, I bet it is more varied than D&D. Just normal magic does have alot of of combat spells.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-07-15 11:12pm

You just said the reason, Harry Potter and D&D wizards are completely different animals, and few people seem to grasp this. Comparing the two is like comparing the Galactic Empire and NASA...you know who is going to win.

That's a big duh right there. But why are you so worked up about this?

Don't assume that I am a HP fanboy who is upset that the pro D&D crowd is having a field-day with HP comparisons. I am keenly aware that D&D mages are killing machines who would tear through Hogwarts in an afternoon, and BBQ the staff for dinner that night.

If someone wants to compare the two, fine. But at least take the time to make it an interesting, pitting an 11 year old first-year Hogwarts student who is studying to be a gardener against a 17+ year old 1st level Wizard who is focused on combat is a bad comparison.

No, just a horribly one sided fight. But we already knew that. What I'm wondering why you felt the need to start the thread to begin with. Especially if it's not to complain because that's the only reason I can think of.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-16 09:17am

Yogi wrote:Please, I dug the 2e manual out of the mothballs and it STATES that most local wizards will have primarily "usefull" spells. Besides, why fill the manual with things a player will never do? Notice that there is an entire chapter on combat, but no chapter on large scale engineering ventures. Does that mean that the engineers in the D&D-verse suck? No (at least, not in trap making).

Define 'useful' spells? Provide examples of them. There should be any number of them, in all the D&D novels that came out we should have a multitude of information on them. I mean in just 5 HP novels we know of many utility spells in that universe.

But we aren't talking about sending a mage like that to face a HP mage are we?
What's this, sending a 10th level mage against Hogwarts? With Fireball, Lightning, Hordes of Undead. Again, when you speak of D&D wizards you are speaking of combat mages, when you speak of HP wizards you are talking about commoners.

Besides, all it takes is a few months training to turn a bunch of "kids" into a semi-formidanle fighting force.

Maybe you forgot the 4 years of study previous to that?

These are kids who can spit out "Sleep", "Hold Monster", "Silence" and "Telekenesis" as fast as they can say the words.

Notice you mention all these non-fatal spells. No magic missiles or the equivalent, no acid arrows, no fireballs, no lightning bolt, no cones of cold, no horrid wilting, no chain lightning, no circle of death, no power word kill, no meteor swarm.

Heck, even Wormtail was able to blast throught the street into the sewers. Put THAT in your calculator.

Okay now you are on to it. Wormtail, a Death Eater, practioner of the unforgivable curses, a combat mage. And he had the capacity to kill a few people on the street, perhaps something like a fireball or burning hands.

Now if you want to compare Wormtail to a D&D mage, go ahead. At least you have something comparable.

Bottom line, most D&D mages are the stay at home and cast spells for money type.

Provide a 3rd edition quote for this, or 3.5 if you are so inclined. Maybe even something from a novel, the above quote mentions local wizards only. Not wizardry in general.

They won't be decked for war, nor will they carry around 6 fully charged wands.

Strawman Fallacy? HP wands are focuses, they are not charged with the spells that D&D wands are. They do not compare to each other, don't try and make the comparison.

Against Random Potter-verse Housewife, I don't think that the fight is all that unbalenced.

So is it your opinion that Mrs. Weasley is suitably trained in the unforgivable curses that she would need to counter a D&D wizard? I don't think she spends much of her time fine tuning her martial training, all that cooking and cleaning pretty much fills up her day.

Stormbringer wrote: No, just a horribly one sided fight. But we already knew that. What I'm wondering why you felt the need to start the thread to begin with. Especially if it's not to complain because that's the only reason I can think of.

I am not complaining here, I am trying to make a point. If you want to make an interesting comparison between a D&D combat mage and a HP wizard, at least select an HP wizard who has some combat skills. Choosing a school teacher, or Mr/Mrs. Weasley is a waste of time, we know who is going to win.

Now Wormtail vs a D&D Mage, okay that is something I could see, both have combat capacity, and both are capable of killing. I would still give odds to the D&D mage, but at least now it's something worthy of consideration.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-07-16 09:45am

The manual says they will have spells to "help raise a barn, or help with childbirth" etc. Those spells are never named.

I think that you are taking an unfair view of this. The D&D books follow the epid guys around, while the HP books take place in a school. Therefore you think "Oh, all D&D-verse wizzies must be PC-type people", where PC-type people are rather RARE and generally rise up to become tremendous influences. Ever heard of "Biased Sample"?

How about "Changing the rules in the middle of a debate?" You said

Steven Snyder wrote:What is a D&D Wizard? Someone in that ruleset that can cast spells, they are combat oriented (80%+ of the spells are designed to hurt, kill, incapacitate, etc). They are not your average folk, they are heroes and villians.

When I presented evidence to demolish your argument, you whine

Steven Snyder wrote:But we aren't talking about sending a mage like that to face a HP mage are we?

But we aren't talking about mages sent to fight Hp mages, are we? Nope, YOU were talking about D&D Wizards in general, not PC wizards. Don't think I didn't notice.

No I did not forget the 4 years of study. I'm simply saying it takes that amount of time to convert a HP wizard from non-combat to combat. Notice, I did not include the amount of time it takes to train a D&D-verse wizard as well.

Besides, a spell doesn't have to be lethal if one that incapacitates your opponent will do just fine. You're saying "But HP wizzies can't do what D&D wizzies do" without noticing the fact that they can take care of the enemy just fine.

I can play the same game you know. Obliviate can permanently drain all levels off your opponnent and permanently reduce his intelegence score. can even Wish do that?

To see how many wizzies there are in a community, simply use the third edition town generator. It should help you get an idea of how many people of what class would be in what size town, and how powerful they will be. In other words, not a lot of powerful wizards. These are all the "stay at home" type wizards you encounted. Besides any D&D book will tell you that adventurers are rare in general. Put two and two together.

"6 Fully charged wands" is what a certain person who shall remain nameless gave his 10th level wizard to fight against Hogwarts. Of course he doesn't think he's being unfair at all.

All Mrs. Weasely needs is "Stupify" against some random stay at home wizard. That and a frying pan. Besides, the Unforgivables are not necessary at all in a fight.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-16 11:37am

Being a 'wizard' in D&Dverses isn't too heroic in and of itself.. It takes slightly-higher-than-average intelligence, and some training. That's right, most people on this board could go to a dude for a while and train to become a 1st level wizard. Real heroic there. Training time lasts between 4 years and 2 weeks(Depending on methods of teacher and targets intelligence), and then.. What? Well, most settle down in their little hometown, stocking up on spells to keep things going smoothly. If things are peaceful, expect ones that'll aid the populace day to day. If Ogres keep raiding, expect firepower to augment the city guard. Others join elite special forces in nearby armies, because a unit of even weak mages can send the enemy scattering. Still others sequester themselves in research.

It all depends on the setting, really. In Forgotten Realms, for example, such a 'common' mage may be as high as 5th or 6th level, and be ready for invasion at a moments notice. Greyhawk tends to lower powerlevels in 'normal' mages. In Planescape, of course, you can be a 20th level mage, and people will look at you and go 'so?'.

Personally, it needs more definition to be answered completely. Oh, and Stupify is equal to Feeblemind, which reduces ones IQ to that of a bright troll or a dumb brick.

Yogi · Post by **Yogi** » 2003-07-16 01:20pm

<Nitpick> The actual spell name is Obliviate, and it erases a target's memory. In Guildroy's case, it was a LOT of memory. It seems to be more or less permanent. </Nitpick>

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2003-07-16 01:32pm

Yogi wrote:<Nitpick> The actual spell name is Obliviate, and it erases a target's memory. In Guildroy's case, it was a LOT of memory. It seems to be more or less permanent. </Nitpick>

Feeblemind puts you at nearly that level. You become a mumbling moron, unable to even figure out the most basic facts. It can only be cured by either a Wish, or direct intervention of a Deity. Feeblemind is probably worse, though, since it doesn't just remove magic, it removes ability to cognate.

Steven Snyder · Post by **Steven Snyder** » 2003-07-16 04:43pm

Yogi wrote:The manual says they will have spells to "help raise a barn, or help with childbirth" etc. Those spells are never named...

I conceed the argument.

Kitsune · Post by **Kitsune** » 2003-07-16 09:43pm

Slartibartfast wrote:
Kitsune wrote:Rifts
AAAAAHH!

I also forgot Patricia Wrede's novels