Moon Knight *spoilers*

[Crazedwraith]

Just watched the first episode of this. I know nothing about the character except the memes you see. (Dracula owes me money etc)

I was impressed. I've seen Oscar Isaac in Star Wars, Dune and X-Men Apocalpyse only and the character of Steven Grant.. a mild mannered gift shop worker is amazingly different from those roles. He really can act.

The depiction of his mental issues is really well done and we really share his shock, horror and confusion at his circumstance. It also serves to keep the reveal of Moon Knight and his costume to the very end well still having some action and demonstating the carnage the character leaves in his wake.

A good start to the show, which is good because as the first D+ Marvel show that concentrating on a new character, I figure it's got a lot to prove. (Though Disney/Marvel's alright announced loads of these shows...)

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Hopefully before the end of the series we'll see the other half of the truck chase from the alter-ego's point of view, fill in the blanks.

[LadyTevar]

A good start to the show, which is good because as the first D+ Marvel show that concentrating on a new character, I figure it's got a lot to prove. (Though Disney/Marvel's alright announced loads of these shows...)

I thought Marvel did very well with SHIELD, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage, which proves they have the talent for it. (not so much Iron Fist, I admit).

I haven't had a chance to sit down and watch MoonKnight yet, but most of the reviews have been positive. I'll post when I finally get there

[EnterpriseSovereign]

A good start to the show, which is good because as the first D+ Marvel show that concentrating on a new character, I figure it's got a lot to prove. (Though Disney/Marvel's alright announced loads of these shows...)

I thought Marvel did very well with SHIELD, Daredevil, Jessica Jones, and Luke Cage, which proves they have the talent for it. (not so much Iron Fist, I admit).

I haven't had a chance to sit down and watch MoonKnight yet, but most of the reviews have been positive. I'll post when I finally get there

At least all the Netflix Marvel shows are now on Disney+, though it's gonna take a long time to view them all. I'll watch the latest ep of Moon Knight when I can.

[Crazedwraith]

So I finished it. I did see a spoiler that confirmed some speculation before seeing it even if I hadn't the final fight being solved by another third personality blackout would feel like a cop out.

To be honest, I like the series but I kind of dislike the fact that aside from name dropping Madripoor and the Wakanadan ancestral plane there are no greater MCU connections to be had. (Also did all the judge people in Cairo die for good?) Oscar Isaac is good and can really act but the ending just felt a little meh.

[Gandalf]

So do all souls have to go through the Egyptian ruleset for the afterlife?

[DesertFly]

It definitely seems like one of those afterlives where the soul's expectations influence it. This is an obvious fit for Steven as an Egyptian mythology buff, and I would guess that Marc had no specific beliefs, so Khonshu (and probably Steven) influenced him to find the Field of Reeds, even if that's not necessarily where Marc would have ended up on his own. (Sheol may have been the ending place as a Jew who felt himself unworthy? (I admit my knowledge of Jewish culture is highly influenced by my pastor father's instruction in the 90s, and is highly unlikely to reflect actual current Jewish thought.))

[Crazedwraith]

So do all souls have to go through the Egyptian ruleset for the afterlife?

No. Taweret says Marc/Steven is the first in a long time (Layla's dad was also said to be guided by her though so that's not certain.) and there are many afterlives you can go to. Name dropping the Ancestral plane that T'Challa experiences in Black Panther.

I assume Marc/Steven were bound to go there because they'd committed to Khonshu as his avatar.

[Gandalf]

So do all souls have to go through the Egyptian ruleset for the afterlife?

No. Taweret says Marc/Steven is the first in a long time (Layla's dad was also said to be guided by her though so that's not certain.) and there are many afterlives you can go to. Name dropping the Ancestral plane that T'Challa experiences in Black Panther.

I assume Marc/Steven were bound to go there because they'd committed to Khonshu as his avatar.

That's what makes me think that in the MCU there's some sort of jurisdiction for deities. People affiliated with ancient Egypt go to that afterlife, and anyone who dies on their metaphysical turf winds up there too. There might even be a divine bureaucracy to determine who gets what souls. That's the show for me.

"He was a lifetime Christian! He should go to St Peter for judgement."
"Unfortunately he died on Ra's side of the street, and rules are rules."
"We seek neutral adjudication with the Rainbow Serpent."

As missionaries spread their religions across the Earth, the territories change.

It would also set up Gorr really well too.

[ray245]

So do all souls have to go through the Egyptian ruleset for the afterlife?

No. Taweret says Marc/Steven is the first in a long time (Layla's dad was also said to be guided by her though so that's not certain.) and there are many afterlives you can go to. Name dropping the Ancestral plane that T'Challa experiences in Black Panther.

I assume Marc/Steven were bound to go there because they'd committed to Khonshu as his avatar.

That's what makes me think that in the MCU there's some sort of jurisdiction for deities. People affiliated with ancient Egypt go to that afterlife, and anyone who dies on their metaphysical turf winds up there too. There might even be a divine bureaucracy to determine who gets what souls. That's the show for me.

"He was a lifetime Christian! He should go to St Peter for judgement."
"Unfortunately he died on Ra's side of the street, and rules are rules."
"We seek neutral adjudication with the Rainbow Serpent."

As missionaries spread their religions across the Earth, the territories change.

It would also set up Gorr really well too.

That has all sorts of funny theological implications. Imagine a person trying to the do the "right" thing in life for their particular religion, only to end up in the afterlife of a religion where what they've done in their life is not good enough the other religion that claimed them.

"Oh, he followed all the teachings of Christ faithfully, but unfortunately he ended up in the pagan afterlife. And since the gods disliked them because they never performed sacrifice in their life, they are going to end up with a horrible afterlife!"

It becomes extremely problematic with religions that encouraged human sacrifice. Thor and the Asgardians are going to explain all the human sacrifices performed in their name.

[LadyTevar]

I binged the whole series Monday night. I loved it.

We got the hint of a 3rd personality with the first blackout that neither Marc nor Steven remembered. In the "sanitarium", Steven opens a door to a second sarcophagus that's wiggling and banging as someone tries to get out, but leaves it for the next door. Then the third personality breaks through again during the big fight. And then we have the teaser at the end, introducing the Spanish-speaking Jake Lockley.

So, when Khonshu said he would free "the two of you", he did exactly what he promised. Marc and Steven are free. Jake, however, seems to have no problem being Khonshu's "justice".

[LadyTevar]

That has all sorts of funny theological implications. Imagine a person trying to the do the "right" thing in life for their particular religion, only to end up in the afterlife of a religion where what they've done in their life is not good enough the other religion that claimed them.

"Oh, he followed all the teachings of Christ faithfully, but unfortunately he ended up in the pagan afterlife. And since the gods disliked them because they never performed sacrifice in their life, they are going to end up with a horrible afterlife!"

It becomes extremely problematic with religions that encouraged human sacrifice. Thor and the Asgardians are going to explain all the human sacrifices performed in their name.

I don't think it works that way. Marc went to Du'at because he was an Avatar. The 'unbalanced souls' we see were either Marc's victims as MoonKnight, or ones killed by Ammit's power.
To me this means that, unless influenced by another Power, a normal human would go to the Afterlife closest to their beliefs.

[Solauren]

To me this means that, unless influenced by another Power, a normal human would go to the Afterlife closest to their beliefs.

Agreed.

That would also explain Divine Wars when and if they happen. They want that afterlife to gain the souls that are there, will go there.

[Gandalf]

Then how did Layla's dad get there, as someone just shot him at a dig site?

[Solauren]

Then how did Layla's dad get there, as someone just shot him at a dig site?

It could be the nature of the site, or he'd 'converted' enough to connect.

[LadyTevar]

Then how did Layla's dad get there, as someone just shot him at a dig site?

It could be the nature of the site, or he'd 'converted' enough to connect.

When Harrow was talking to Layla in the tomb, he said that her father was already convinced the Egyptian Gods were still alive and involved on Earth. Part of his digging was probably to prove that point. Therefore, her father Believed and was welcomed into the Du'at.

[Gandalf]

Assuming the belief thing is the key, that then leads to another theological question. People have now seen Egypt's gods fighting in public. So presumably, more people are going to buy into them than have for millenia.

Some of those people have also seen Norse gods, and presumably as this side of the MCU unfolds, will see more, so what happens when you die if you "know" two or more afterlife operating systems to be real? Marc's working for the Egyptian pantheon overrode his pre-existing Judaism.

That's why I went for the divine territory thing, because it raises way fewer questions.

[Solauren]

Here's another consideration....

The Norse gods are, for all practical purposes, aliens. You could reach Asgard with a sufficiently powerful starship. (as seen in Thor - Ragnorok).
Thor - Love and Thunder makes it Spoiler

appear the Olympian gods are aliens. (Based on trailers and leaks from Thor - Love and Thunder)

The only afterlifes we've seen evidence/the existence of are the Ancestral Plane (Wakandan), and the Egyptian afterlife.

So, unless the Asgard draw power from a similar 'afterlife/planes' aka Valhalla, you have to wonder what happens to their worshipers specifically. (And if that's where Asgardians go when they die).

[Steve]

So finally sat down and watched it. It wasn't bad, Oscar Isaac is a terrific actor, and Ethan Hawke was sublime as Harrow. And while I'm not familiar with the character so much, I'd heard enough to guess a third personality was going to manifest itself, though I think their decision to have it happen as part of the "epic finale" was.... okay, it makes sense in the narrative. It's logical. But from a dramatic standpoint it was a poor choice. I'd have had the third personality show up during the fight, maybe an earlier bit where Harrow was fighting Layla perhaps and Marc was trying to recover and got hit by the cultists. Have him blackout, come to and find the assailant dispatched, then get back into the fight.

Also I admit I found the refusal to kill Harrow-Amitt a bit too pat. It's a generic "I'm better than them" that entirely ignores the massive threat they pose if allowed to go free, especially if the cult exists elsewhere to come rescue Harrow from confinement. Yeah, it let them do the stinger to set up Jake being revealed (and presumably he's the personality that formed from Marc growing tired of being Khonshu's hitman, a cold-blooded killer with no objections to the work).

At the end of Episode 4 I laughed at seeing the hippo goddess. Y'see, I didn't remember her name, but I remembered her existence from Rick Riordan's Kane siblings' novels (part of his Percy Jackson setting, the trilogy about the Kane siblings Carter and Sadie dealing with Egyptian mythology, and if you didn't know, yes, they're linked, he even did a series of short stories of the siblings meeting Percy and Annabeth and the two groups eventually working together to fight a side-villain from the Kane books; the stories also went into the links between the two mythologies like Serapis).

Also, as a final note for that final episode, I do love the girl looking at Layla-as-Tawaret's Avatar and asking "Are you an Egyptian superhero?" The wonder's pretty sold there, and I wouldn't mind getting to see Layla as.... well, whatever moniker she'd have as Tawaret's Avatar.

[Steve]

Sorry, an error screen showed, caused me to double post.

[Solauren]

Layla's superhero name was 'Scarlet Scarab' in the comics.

[LadyTevar]

So finally sat down and watched it. It wasn't bad, Oscar Isaac is a terrific actor, and Ethan Hawke was sublime as Harrow. And while I'm not familiar with the character so much, I'd heard enough to guess a third personality was going to manifest itself, though I think their decision to have it happen as part of the "epic finale" was.... okay, it makes sense in the narrative. It's logical. But from a dramatic standpoint it was a poor choice. I'd have had the third personality show up during the fight, maybe an earlier bit where Harrow was fighting Layla perhaps and Marc was trying to recover and got hit by the cultists. Have him blackout, come to and find the assailant dispatched, then get back into the fight.

There is a place in the second episode where Steven blacked out and was surrounded by dead cultists, when he had the scarab. There's several points during the escape in the ice cream truck that Steven blacks out, and we're never told/shown WHO is taking over.
There's a scene when Marc's in charge, the second time he goes after the cultists where he blacks out and walks up having just stabbed one of them with a knife. He asks Steven if Steven'd done that -- Steven had also blacked out and did not know how it happened (this is before Khonsu suggests dangling the last cultist over the edge).
In the "mental ward", Marc finds a sarcophagus bumping and banging, and opens to reveal Steven. Steven later is opening doors looking within, and there's a second, standing, sarcophagus that's also bumping and banging, but Steven ignores it to move onto the next room.
Then, the Big End Battle, both Steven and Marc black out again, and wake to find all the enemies dead.

Checkov's gun was locked and loaded the whole time.

[Steve]

So finally sat down and watched it. It wasn't bad, Oscar Isaac is a terrific actor, and Ethan Hawke was sublime as Harrow. And while I'm not familiar with the character so much, I'd heard enough to guess a third personality was going to manifest itself, though I think their decision to have it happen as part of the "epic finale" was.... okay, it makes sense in the narrative. It's logical. But from a dramatic standpoint it was a poor choice. I'd have had the third personality show up during the fight, maybe an earlier bit where Harrow was fighting Layla perhaps and Marc was trying to recover and got hit by the cultists. Have him blackout, come to and find the assailant dispatched, then get back into the fight.

There is a place in the second episode where Steven blacked out and was surrounded by dead cultists, when he had the scarab. There's several points during the escape in the ice cream truck that Steven blacks out, and we're never told/shown WHO is taking over.
There's a scene when Marc's in charge, the second time he goes after the cultists where he blacks out and walks up having just stabbed one of them with a knife. He asks Steven if Steven'd done that -- Steven had also blacked out and did not know how it happened (this is before Khonsu suggests dangling the last cultist over the edge).
In the "mental ward", Marc finds a sarcophagus bumping and banging, and opens to reveal Steven. Steven later is opening doors looking within, and there's a second, standing, sarcophagus that's also bumping and banging, but Steven ignores it to move onto the next room.
Then, the Big End Battle, both Steven and Marc black out again, and wake to find all the enemies dead.

Checkov's gun was locked and loaded the whole time.

No, you misunderstand me, I'm not complaining that Jake wasn't set up, because yeah, he was. What I feel was a mistake was how he was used in the final fight. I wouldn't have had him be the one who wins the fight with Harrow so suddenly. I can see why they did it, I just feel it took something from the ending.