Hobbit (spoilers, with tags)

[Rogue 9]

Not sure why they changed who killed the Great Goblin.

Who do you think killed the Great Goblin in the book? Because it was assuredly Gandalf, with Glamdring; it was just less strung out in the doing.

[Block]

Still not sure why he changed the Trolls and who and why they stalled long enough for sunlight. Not sure why they changed who killed the Great Goblin. Still not sure why Azog was in there as a protagonist chasing them, the original reason for goblins and wargs makes better sense.

Yeah, the trolls arguing over how to cook the dwarves and the Goblins swarming around the trees singing 15 Birds were two of my favorite parts of the book and I was disappointed by how they were changed.

[Knife]

Not sure why they changed who killed the Great Goblin.

Who do you think killed the Great Goblin in the book? Because it was assuredly Gandalf, with Glamdring; it was just less strung out in the doing.

You're right, my bad. Went and found the verse. I was thinking the biter got him, not the beater.

[LadyTevar]

I did miss 15Birds, but Orcs don't sing.

[Block]

I did miss 15Birds, but Orcs don't sing.

Nor do they ride Wargs, unless I missed it somewhere in the book, that's a goblin thing.

[Rogue 9]

I did miss 15Birds, but Orcs don't sing.

Nor do they ride Wargs, unless I missed it somewhere in the book, that's a goblin thing.

As the preface to The Hobbit notes, orc and goblin are the same thing, and the vernacular of the Shire simply terms them goblins.

[CaptHawkeye]

The movies seem to have made a distinction between Goblins and Orcs. Ever since Fellowship really.

[Ford Prefect]

Changing the history surrounding Azog so that he has more history with Thorin and presence as a persistent villain is far and away the best decision made in any of Jackson's films.

[D.Turtle]

Agreed -it adds a good, consistent villain that the book lacked.

I have to say I really enjoyed the movie - even, or especially the more cartoonish elements. It makes it seem like more of a story being told, instead of a realistic look at exactly what happened.

[PainRack]

I did miss 15Birds, but Orcs don't sing.

Nor do they ride Wargs, unless I missed it somewhere in the book, that's a goblin thing.

As the preface to The Hobbit notes, orc and goblin are the same thing, and the vernacular of the Shire simply terms them goblins.

Really? I was under the impression that the Misty Mountains subtype did differentiate between goblins and orcs, it was just that in the Hobbit, no such differentiation was made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Mid ... _and_Uruks

[PainRack]

Thorin didn't exactly "fall" in the novel. He acted hard headed after reclaiming what was by all rights, his. That is not an uncommon or particularly unreasonable trait, especially considering Thorin being written as a stubborn and proud dwarf.

To be honest, Thorin in the novel simply didn't feel like a.... hero to me. And thus his subsequent "disgrace" when he went up against the humans and elves due to greed, his expulsion of Bilbo and subsequent deathbed conversion/grace just didn't have much impact on me.

[Knife]

It is almost written like the gold and wealth have a drug like effect on dwarves, such as the One Ring was shown to be in the movies. Thorin wasn't a bad person in the book, just turned to douche when he had piled of riches.

[Ford Prefect]

It's almost inevitable that what happens to Thorin will be handled differently. Apart from the fact that Jackson has totally latched onto the Return of the Dwarf King aspect, his relationship with Bilbo is way more meaningful compared to the book. There's a real 'seeking dad's approval' thing towards the end lol

[LadyTevar]

The Prologue shows the finding of the Arkenstone, and afterwards Thror's growing obsession with wealth. I think Jackson is going to go with that route.

[Block]

Thorin didn't exactly "fall" in the novel. He acted hard headed after reclaiming what was by all rights, his. That is not an uncommon or particularly unreasonable trait, especially considering Thorin being written as a stubborn and proud dwarf.

To be honest, Thorin in the novel simply didn't feel like a.... hero to me. And thus his subsequent "disgrace" when he went up against the humans and elves due to greed, his expulsion of Bilbo and subsequent deathbed conversion/grace just didn't have much impact on me.

It's because Thorin wasn't the hero. Bilbo was. He was an ordinary peace loving hobbit who went on an adventure and saw a bunch of amazing things along the way.

[DesertFly]

I think it's nice having the standard adventure hero Thorin to act as a contrast to our everyman Bilbo. That was hinted at in the books, but it's been nicely fleshed out in the movie.

Also, the prologue was too damn long. Still a good movie.

[PainRack]

Thorin didn't exactly "fall" in the novel. He acted hard headed after reclaiming what was by all rights, his. That is not an uncommon or particularly unreasonable trait, especially considering Thorin being written as a stubborn and proud dwarf.

To be honest, Thorin in the novel simply didn't feel like a.... hero to me. And thus his subsequent "disgrace" when he went up against the humans and elves due to greed, his expulsion of Bilbo and subsequent deathbed conversion/grace just didn't have much impact on me.

It's because Thorin wasn't the hero. Bilbo was. He was an ordinary peace loving hobbit who went on an adventure and saw a bunch of amazing things along the way.

I'm perfectly aware that the Hobbit is written from Bilbo perspective, and he never cottoned on to how much Thorin disliked having to bring him along, even for the sake of breaking the unlucky thirteen.

It still doesn't change the fact that thorin fall from grace had minimal impact on me.

[Ted C]

The Prologue shows the finding of the Arkenstone, and afterwards Thror's growing obsession with wealth. I think Jackson is going to go with that route.

PJ may be playing with the notion that Thror had one of the last of the seven rings given to dwarves. Sauron wasn't able to control dwarves through the rings, but the dwarf kings that had them became very gold-obsessed, as Thror is depicted in the movie.

That ring was passed to Thrain when Thror died, then retaken by Sauron when Thrain was captured and imprisoned in Dol Guldur. I'm a bit surprised that PJ hasn't gone into that bit of history, but he may do it in movie 2. Thrain having been a prisoner in Dol Guldur is backstory that Gandalf tells in the book, if I recall correctly, although the fate of the dwarf ring isn't told until somewhere in LOTR, I think.

[LadyTevar]

Yes, in the books, Thror held one of the 7 Dwarven Rings, and the corruption from those rings made the Dwarven Kings gold-mad. IIRC, in the beginning they were simply to help the Dwarves find ore and help rule.

In the movie Thror was killed by Azog in front of Moria. We don't see what happened to Thrain, other than Azog stating he 'smelt of fear'.

[Rogue 9]

The Prologue shows the finding of the Arkenstone, and afterwards Thror's growing obsession with wealth. I think Jackson is going to go with that route.

We also see Thorin looking on in obvious concern. It would seem rather odd for him to immediately fall to the same sickness of the mind after having been witness to its effect on his grandfather, without the influence of a Ring of Power to drive him that way. The prologue implies that Thror's fall into gold-madness was a very slow process, while Thorin will only have a few days at most in possession of the wealth of Erebor.

[Ahriman238]

It is almost written like the gold and wealth have a drug like effect on dwarves, such as the One Ring was shown to be in the movies. Thorin wasn't a bad person in the book, just turned to douche when he had piled of riches.

It doesn't have to be anything like that. Thorin walked most of the way across the world, braved incredible dangers to get back his home and treasure, for himself and his people. Then a bunch of human and elven freeloaders show up and demand some of his hard-won gold. The men of Dale had legitimate, if debatable claim. The elves deserved treasure because...?

You don't have to mad with lust for gold to begrudge people demanding what's yours. He did take it a bit far, his quarrel with Bilbo and refusing to consider the obvious (paying off the men, just to break up the coalition.)

Yes, in the books, Thror held one of the 7 Dwarven Rings, and the corruption from those rings made the Dwarven Kings gold-mad. IIRC, in the beginning they were simply to help the Dwarves find ore and help rule.

In the movie Thror was killed by Azog in front of Moria. We don't see what happened to Thrain, other than Azog stating he 'smelt of fear'.

Didn't Gandalf say that he met Thror, mad from torture, in the dungeons of Dol Guldur? I'd assumed Thror died there.

[Vendetta]

Yes, in the books, Thror held one of the 7 Dwarven Rings, and the corruption from those rings made the Dwarven Kings gold-mad. IIRC, in the beginning they were simply to help the Dwarves find ore and help rule.

In the movie Thror was killed by Azog in front of Moria. We don't see what happened to Thrain, other than Azog stating he 'smelt of fear'.

Didn't Gandalf say that he met Thror, mad from torture, in the dungeons of Dol Guldur? I'd assumed Thror died there.

Other way around. Thrain is the one who goes mad due to the influence of one of the seven and is eventually captured by Sauron. Thror was captured, tortured, and eventually killed by Azog, starting a war which eventually led to Azog being killed by Dain. (This happened around 150 years before the story of The Hobbit)

[Darth Yan]

Saw it with the folks today. Pretty good, but I still love the LOTR trilogy a bit more (Extended version is actually pretty good.)

Things I loved:

Bilbo charging Azog was badass. Though why did Azog look particularly angry at Azog?)
Thorin interacting with Bilbo at the end. Thorin admiting that he was wrong and hugging bilbo was sweet.
The final battle; kick ass
The intro scene
Thorin's dislike of elves due to the elves failing to aid the people of Erebor
Bilbo admitting to Thorin that he was willing to tough it out because he knew what it was like to be deprived of your home.

[Ziggy Stardust]

[
That ring was passed to Thrain when Thror died, then retaken by Sauron when Thrain was captured and imprisoned in Dol Guldur. I'm a bit surprised that PJ hasn't gone into that bit of history, but he may do it in movie 2. Thrain having been a prisoner in Dol Guldur is backstory that Gandalf tells in the book, if I recall correctly, although the fate of the dwarf ring isn't told until somewhere in LOTR, I think.

I would be very surprised if PJ doesn't go into this in movie 2. After all, in the book, Gandalf finding Thrain in Dol Goldur is how he came to possess the key to the secret door. The movie still hasn't explained why Gandalf has the key.


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Also, did anybody else find the weird sexual tension between Gandalf and Galadriel to be unsettling and bizarre?

[Block]

[
That ring was passed to Thrain when Thror died, then retaken by Sauron when Thrain was captured and imprisoned in Dol Guldur. I'm a bit surprised that PJ hasn't gone into that bit of history, but he may do it in movie 2. Thrain having been a prisoner in Dol Guldur is backstory that Gandalf tells in the book, if I recall correctly, although the fate of the dwarf ring isn't told until somewhere in LOTR, I think.

I would be very surprised if PJ doesn't go into this in movie 2. After all, in the book, Gandalf finding Thrain in Dol Goldur is how he came to possess the key to the secret door. The movie still hasn't explained why Gandalf has the key.


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Also, did anybody else find the weird sexual tension between Gandalf and Galadriel to be unsettling and bizarre?

I didn't see any sexual tension, so no. Also Gandalf can't find Thrain in Dol Goldur since Radagast is the one who discovers that it's occupied, and has only recently become so.