Riddler Out for Batman 3

[ray245]

What do you think about a love interest? I hope they don't go that way, it's too soon after Rachel's death. Unless it happens a long time after the events of the second movie.

Agreed. Especially if it is Catwoman.

[Jim Raynor]

Except that the ending features Batman undergoing a massive change, and ignoring that just to have him fight a grim n' gritty Firefly or Calendar Man will make TDK completely hollow.

Batman takes the blame because Gotham needs hope; this is the core of TDK and a powerful sacrifice. Any movie that ignores that will suck, and I think the odds of Nolan making such a movie is very low.

I never said that the third movie should ignore the end of TDK. As I pointed out, BB already shows that he can fight villains while being on the run from the cops as well. Beating a villain while the cops are preoccupied with hunting him down provides a way for Batman to redeem himself.

Besides, the forces that he's fought so far in the Nolanverse are larger than life. A league of assassins with a "immortal" head, a psychotic clown with uncanny abilities that verge on the magical.. City Hall, or the Feds, are well in the same league, and tie into the end of TDK. They also have been moral threats. Ra's al Ghul sought to purge the "guilty" and forced Batman to defend his mortal enemies, the Joker tried to establish chaos in Gotham... having a fascistic approach to the hunt for Batman, martial law et cetera would also establish that.

I really don't think that City Hall would be seen in the same league as Joker or Ra's Al Ghul in most people's eyes. The first two movies have already shown how pathetic Gotham's authorities are. Batman's quest is to save the city from crime, and he only makes his sacrifice at the end of TDK because he knows how easily the city could regress. Suddenly the authorities are too strong? The city is placed under martial law and the cops are too heavy handed? That's the series pulling a 180.

[JointStrikeFighter]

Simply show an outside agency coming in; PROBLEM SOLVED

[Stark]

They don't have to be 'powerful' anyway; Batman is now involved in a coverup, all law enforcement has to do is get close to the truth. When Mulder finds solid evidence that Dent was a psycho murderer, months after the city has praised him as a hero and used this to launch a period of renewal to the benefit of all, what will Batman do to keep the secret? Is a lie better than the truth? At which point will the city be ready for the truth? Is Batman worth more as a villain or a hero to Gotham?

[Batman]

One point to consider, who was the guy who figured out who Batman was? IIRC he first tried to blackmail Morgan Freeman, then he was next seen later in the film when he was going to go public with it but something happened to change his mind (I think it was when Bruce Wayne crashed his car into Gordon).
I can't remember how the film resolved that loose thread, and unless it resolved it adequately it will need to be addressed in the next film.

If memory serves that idea pretty much died the moment the guy presented his demands to Lucius. Remember Lucius' response

[Archaic`]

One point to consider, who was the guy who figured out who Batman was? IIRC he first tried to blackmail Morgan Freeman, then he was next seen later in the film when he was going to go public with it but something happened to change his mind (I think it was when Bruce Wayne crashed his car into Gordon).

I can't remember how the film resolved that loose thread, and unless it resolved it adequately it will need to be addressed in the next film.

The character was named Coleman Reese. It had been implied that he may be a proto-Riddler (Coleman Reese => Mr. Reese => Mysteries), but I don't know if there was ever any confirmation on that.

[Jim Raynor]

Simply show an outside agency coming in; PROBLEM SOLVED

Yeah, so some outside agency that hasn't even been a factor this whole time just comes in the third film and quickly does what Batman has struggled to do for two movies. The hero's established mission is rendered moot, and replaced with something else. That's still the series pulling a 180 and changing what it's been about.

As I said before, Batman's trouble with the authorities should definitely be a part of the third film. But that doesn't have to, and shouldn't replace him fighting criminals and villains.

[Bakustra]

Simply show an outside agency coming in; PROBLEM SOLVED

Yeah, so some outside agency that hasn't even been a factor this whole time just comes in the third film and quickly does what Batman has struggled to do for two movies. The hero's established mission is rendered moot, and replaced with something else. That's still the series pulling a 180 and changing what it's been about.

As I said before, Batman's trouble with the authorities should definitely be a part of the third film. But that doesn't have to, and shouldn't replace him fighting criminals and villains.

Batman's been struggling to arrest himself for two movies?

The series has had Batman face villains that are representative of greater forces so far and that have him confront uncomfortable moral decisions. Having it just be him beating up Hugo Strange and Man-Bat would be far more of a 180 than having him face the consequences of the end of TDK. Besides, the Mob leadership in the city was massacred or imprisoned at the end of TDK, so crime will drop in Gotham with the resources of the Mob destroyed and scattered. You could make a movie about the rise of "freaks" imitating the Joker, combine that with the mock-Batmen from TDK, and even incorporate the Riddler as the overall villain and make it about the idea of imitation and adulteration, or about human responses to challenges. But that would have to either ignore the end of TDK or incorporate it and become a mess of a movie. If you really want a super-villain, I bet that Scarecrow will make a curtain call in TDKR, perhaps to show how far the mighty do fall.

[Havok]

One point to consider, who was the guy who figured out who Batman was? IIRC he first tried to blackmail Morgan Freeman, then he was next seen later in the film when he was going to go public with it but something happened to change his mind (I think it was when Bruce Wayne crashed his car into Gordon).
I can't remember how the film resolved that loose thread, and unless it resolved it adequately it will need to be addressed in the next film.

If memory serves that idea pretty much died the moment the guy presented his demands to Lucius. Remember Lucius' response

Uh, no. He changed his line of thinking from blackmail to save Gotham by telling everyone who Bruce Wayne is. The Joker ended that particular plot by calling for the public to kill Reese rather than have him spoil his fun and reveal who Batman is. Wayne then saved Reese's life by slamming his Lamborgini into Gordon's SUV. The little nod ("See what I am willing to do jackwad. Keep your fucking mouth shut.") that Wayne gave Reese after the collision, ended that particular story line.

[Havok]

This movie doesn't need a single villain, and it shouldn't have one. It should continue with the 'escalation' point that Gordon made at the end of Batman Begins. There should be a plethora of villains that Batman is steadily fighting as they show up.

There needs to be a reason for Batman to be there. He has already scarred the shit out of crime in Gotham and has them scurrying into the day light, a point that was made in TDK, and the idea to bring in crazy fucks to try to kill Batman is now established. Just not as crazy as the Joker. Having just really bad organized crime is not enough for the Batman to exist, it needs to be things like The League of Shadows and Scarecrow.

Keep in mind that Scarecrow was doing the whole "masked villain crazy person" before Batman hit the scene. The Joker was a reaction to him, but clearly, not every one is.

Also, you need to have Batman being hunted by Gotham PD and the Feds. That is a pretty blatantly fucking obvious point that was hammered home with Gordon smashing the Bat-Signal at the end of TDK. Nolan will not ignore this, yet at the same time, there still needs to be a reason for Gotham to need Batman or else he can just retire and let Harvey's legacy and martyrdom and the hope it instilled in the population, fix the city. There needs to be something that is still beyond the ability of GPD and the Feds to handle without the Batman's help in order for him to remain on the scene to still be hunted by GPD and the Feds.

[Batman]

Uh, no. He changed his line of thinking from blackmail to save Gotham by telling everyone who Bruce Wayne is. The Joker ended that particular plot by calling for the public to kill Reese rather than have him spoil his fun and reveal who Batman is. Wayne then saved Reese's life by slamming his Lamborgini into Gordon's SUV. The little nod ("See what I am willing to do jackwad. Keep your fucking mouth shut.") that Wayne gave Reese after the collision, ended that particular story line.

Yes, you're correct, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder.

[JME2]

.There needs to be something that is still beyond the ability of GPD and the Feds to handle without the Batman's help in order for him to remain on the scene to still be hunted by GPD and the Feds.

Which is why Talia and the remnants of the League of Shadows makes the most sense for villain candidate -- unless Penguin's crimelord status gets beefed up to 11.

[Alphawolf55]

I actually wouldn't mind Bane. Have it be that the movie starts with Batman trying to stop a new criminal group and he reaches the leader expecting some mob guy, only to find a deeply intelligent muslce bound Bane. They fight and Batman loses handily with his back broken. Bruce Wayne drops out and finds Azael or Catwoman and has them take over the work. They become kind of murderous vigilantes, with Gotham openly fearing them. Batman rises up and takes back his role as protector of Gotham, gaining the people's trust again.

[xt828]

The thing about a Bane storyline is to do it properly you'd need more time than you can really give in a single movie. Think about how long Knightfall itself is, and then yo want to add in the follow-on as well. I'd rather have it not done than have it done tragically poorly.

The reason I thought Azrael might work as an antagonist is that IIRC when he first rocked up to Gotham, he was essentially doing the same thing as Batman, except he was killing rather than leaving for the cops. This could tie in with the anti-Batman manhunt - the police assume that all the killings are Batman's work, and Batman's trying to figure out what's going on while dodging the taskforce after him.

[Jim Raynor]

Simply show an outside agency coming in; PROBLEM SOLVED

Yeah, so some outside agency that hasn't even been a factor this whole time just comes in the third film and quickly does what Batman has struggled to do for two movies. The hero's established mission is rendered moot, and replaced with something else. That's still the series pulling a 180 and changing what it's been about.

As I said before, Batman's trouble with the authorities should definitely be a part of the third film. But that doesn't have to, and shouldn't replace him fighting criminals and villains.

Batman's been struggling to arrest himself for two movies?

No, he's been struggling to clean up Gotham. You can't just have the feds roll in and clamp down on the city just like that. It's something that Batman started, and it's something that he should do something about in the final movie.

Having it just be him beating up Hugo Strange and Man-Bat would be far more of a 180 than having him face the consequences of the end of TDK.

Whatever villain Nolan picks (who definitely won't be Man-Bat) will of course be integrated into the movie's story and theme.

Besides, the Mob leadership in the city was massacred or imprisoned at the end of TDK, so crime will drop in Gotham with the resources of the Mob destroyed and scattered. You could make a movie about the rise of "freaks" imitating the Joker, combine that with the mock-Batmen from TDK, and even incorporate the Riddler as the overall villain and make it about the idea of imitation and adulteration, or about human responses to challenges. But that would have to either ignore the end of TDK or incorporate it and become a mess of a movie. If you really want a super-villain, I bet that Scarecrow will make a curtain call in TDKR, perhaps to show how far the mighty do fall.

The mob doesn't have to, and shouldn't, just sputter out. If they were truly finished at the end of TDK, Batman wouldn't have taken the blame for Harvey. He only did that because Harvey was a symbol of what the city should aspire to, and he knew that Gotham's progress was vulnerable. I see no problems with Batman running from the cops while fighting villains in the same movie, since BB already did that as I have said already. Nolan is up to it. BB had those two things, a romantic subplot, AND an origin story to get through. It handled everything beautifully (except for the romantic subplot).

[Shroom Man 777]

Uh, no. He changed his line of thinking from blackmail to save Gotham by telling everyone who Bruce Wayne is. The Joker ended that particular plot by calling for the public to kill Reese rather than have him spoil his fun and reveal who Batman is. Wayne then saved Reese's life by slamming his Lamborgini into Gordon's SUV. The little nod ("See what I am willing to do jackwad. Keep your fucking mouth shut.") that Wayne gave Reese after the collision, ended that particular story line.

Yes, you're correct, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the reminder.

The impact of the car crash must've jarred your memory, Bruce.

How many of your villains will work in a Nolanesque setting, anyway? Riddler was the obvious choice, but he's out. The concept of Penguin is sound, but how can we make it workable? A villain named after a fatty bird, I don't see Nolan going with that, unless somehow they can work it as Cobblepot being some rich CEO type who also makes monies from financing crime (ala Lao), and who is interested in a corporate-criminal takeover of Gotham by simultaneously challenging Wayne Enterprises and invading the Gotham crime scene and perhaps hiring all sorts of costumed freaks (like Bane) to take you on, Bruce. Penguin could work as a multifaceted villain who's aiming at Batman at all angles, and using the anti-Batman police crusade (and his own semi-legitimate corporato-criminal contacts) to his advantage.

Yeah, this sounds workable. But the movie needs to focus more on Batman and Gordon.

But the name 'Penguin' sounds dumb.

[open_sketchbook]

Honestly, you could get away with just doing that character and never bothering to call him the Penguin out loud. The guy looks like a fucking penguin. That's pretty much all you need.

I really like that idea, though. The Penguin just hitting Bruce Wayne/Batman (Bruceman?) at every level, with everything, and throwing handfuls of minor villians at him sounds totally awesome.

[Srelex]

You could just have someone offhandly call him 'that damn penguin' or 'guy looks like a damn penguin' or something to that effect, based on the way he dresses or looks.

[Atlan]

If they do Catwoman as a love interest it could work. Only to have her turn out to be an alter ego for Talia and the league Of Shadows, come looking for revenge.
In this series of movies Batman just isn't lucky enough to get stuff like this handed on a platter. Catwoman, the beautiful burglar who falls for the Bat? Yeah, there's an underlying motive if that happens.
Otherwise the most likely would indeed be Penguin. The new take on him is just perfect for Nolan's setting.

[Stark]

Catwoman as a love interest has always, always sucked. Always. At best its tiresome and at worst it totally undermines Batman's character. I'm sure it was the height of nerd fantasy in 1942 or whatever, but its just lame now.

[CaptainChewbacca]

Lately I've been hearing buzz about Clayface making an appearance. That would be... interesting.

[Enigma]

The rumor-mill is going into overdrive about Tom Hardy playing Dr. Hugo Strange.

EW

[JME2]

Hugo Strange could actually work as a substitute for the Riddler's obsession with Bats. He also wouldn't be too hard to adapt to the Nolan-verse. The problem is the same as using the Scarecrow in the first film-- he's one of the oldest Batman foes, but he's not as well known to the public.

[Imperial Overlord]

Hugo Strange could actually work as a substitute for the Riddler's obsession with Bats. He also wouldn't be too hard to adapt to the Nolan-verse. The problem is the same as using the Scarecrow in the first film-- he's one of the oldest Batman foes, but he's not as well known to the public.

It doesn't matter. Whiplash was a minor Iron Man enemy. Ras al Gul isn't well known to the public either. The public doesn't need to know a lot about the villains, the villains just have to work. The leading hero is the one who's name recognition is important and that's not an issue with Batman.

[Ghost Rider]

Hugo Strange could actually work as a substitute for the Riddler's obsession with Bats. He also wouldn't be too hard to adapt to the Nolan-verse. The problem is the same as using the Scarecrow in the first film-- he's one of the oldest Batman foes, but he's not as well known to the public.

It doesn't matter. Whiplash was a minor Iron Man enemy. Ras al Gul isn't well known to the public either. The public doesn't need to know a lot about the villains, the villains just have to work. The leading hero is the one who's name recognition is important and that's not an issue with Batman.

Especially given today's climate towards them.

Aside from the Joker, how many villains does the public know? I'm betting none of the rest and in fact whomever Nolan chooses will be another of that variety unless it is Catwoman, which would be the only other member of Batman's rogues anyone has an idea about.