The Force vs. everything else from every other known fiction

[KK]

Hooray, I am a village idiot! How mature of you. I bet your kids are so proud of their father.

[KK]

I particularly like how you close topics just so you can get the last word in. Cowardly fuck.

[AdmiralKanos]

I also posted a scene where Spidey lifts a subway car straight up over his head and holds it there.

And for the umpteenth time, we can't see the whole rear edge, so we don't know if the other end was propped up on something. We know the subway car should have deformed if held up like that, UNLESS the other end was supported. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that it was supported.

Moreover, even if he is capable of lifting a 30 ton subway car, that is only twice the official stats, which would imply that he doubled his strength since he first became Spiderman. Humans can double their strength through exercise, so this is not unreasonable, but it is still not enough to make his throat survive multi-ton TK.

Both of these points were made before. You responded with mockery rather than logical rebuttals. I grow tired of your refusal to address points.

Wong gave the same sort of reply, saying the metal wasn't shown dented the way it should have been, so it doesn't count. He was also saying that since the back left corner of the car was off-panel, it was probably resting on a fortunately placed boulder or something.

Yes, I looked at the evidence and attempted to construct an explanation which makes physical sense. You, on the other hand, construct an explanation which does NOT make physical sense, and you act as though it MORE reasonable for some reason.

Wong: "Spider-Man can only lift 15 tons at max using every muscle in his body, according to his official stats."
Me: "No, 15 tons is the ammount he can do benchpress reps with, and he can lift more, as seen here, here, here, and here."
Wong: "That piece of metal didn't dent right!"
[continue, until...]
Wong: "You're stupid. A person can deadlift more than they can benchpress, dumb-ass. So just because he can deadlift more than 15 tons doesn't mean he can benchpress that much!"

Or more accurately:
Krackhead: the 15-ton stats are bullshit!
Me: prove it
Krackhead: these scans show that he must be much stronger than that!
Me: not if you interpret them in a physically rational way
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: then how do you know he can't lift a subway car with a 15 ton lift, since that's a physics situation?
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: see previous rebuttal
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: are you some kind of fucking moron? See above.
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: <gets bored and stops responding>
Krackhead: you didn't address my point! I win!

Take note of what I actually posted the scans in response to, which was his claim that 15 tons was his total deadlift, and the very first thing I said was that 15 tons was his benchpress.

Actually, 15 tons was his OVERHEAD lift, which is different from deadlift, you idiot. The average person can deadlift twice what he can overhead press. Benchpress has nothing to do with it. I am not responsible for your ignorance. And yet again, this is a point I made earlier, and which you ignored.

As for the precog, you're running into one of the great problems with a deterministic universe(One of the big reasons I consider it a load of bull), but I'm not here to provide philosophy. In the end, if the SW universe is deterministic, Precog will work. Every move they dodge they will always dodge, because it's set in stone. If not, the only resolution for PreCog while within the normal rules is it to be some advanced form of prediction.

The thing is, that's not how it is used in versus debates.

You're full of shit. You draw a false dilemma between completely infinite determinism and zero determinism. Take meteorology for example; you can predict tomorrow's weather much more accurately than you can predict next week's weather. If (for example) a cold front is moving rapidly toward a hot, humid mass of air, it is a no-brainer that it will rain. This is a deterministic situation; does that mean weather prediction is 100% reliable? Of course not.

Unless your goal has been to add proof to the widespread perception that philosophers are full of bullshit, you haven't accomplished anything here. "Always in motion, the future is". Jedi precog is highly accurate over the short range, but in a less than perfectly deterministic universe, it cannot be perfect.

[AdmiralKanos]

I particularly like how you close topics just so you can get the last word in. Cowardly fuck.

Kiss my ass, fuckwad. You opened this thread so you could spout the same bullshit in two threads. I merely cut it back down to one.

[Connor MacLeod]

Do you not understand that you are supporting the very reason I started thsi thread?

Because you're a scientifically inept fuckwit, a dishonest debator, and a sore loser who resents anyone who attempts to force you to consistency?

I feel rather justified now in the DBZ debate, considering you applied the SAME FUCKING TACTICS to the Spiderman thread, and STILL got your ass kicked.

And no, you din't reply to that. You nit-picked at it. There's a difference. If you were to read the writer's script, do you think it would've said "Spidey lifts the subway car" or "Spidey lifts the subway car, which doesn't dent, therefore allowing it to be ignored in debates".

I suppose you want to pretend this was some super-subway car, huh? Maybe it was made of Adamantium or neutronium?

[Connor MacLeod]

I like how KK blames everyone else for the consequences of his own stupidity. Much like Crossover_Maniac, and others like him, I'm betting he'll run away to some other place and then just start bitching about how we are biased and dishonested assholes.

[AdmiralKanos]

If you were to read the writer's script, do you think it would've said "Spidey lifts the subway car" or "Spidey lifts the subway car, which doesn't dent, therefore allowing it to be ignored in debates".

And if you were to ask the writer if he knows how much a subway car weighs, he probably wouldn't be able to answer you, dumb-ass. You're wasting time with subjective bullshit. The writers know Spider is Class 15; if you asked them whether that stat is "bullshit", do you seriously think they would agree with you?

[David]

We can just say the boxcar was made of one of the many uber-metals found in the MU.

You could say that, but that doesn't make it true.

[AdmiralKanos]

Hooray, I am a village idiot! How mature of you. I bet your kids are so proud of their father.

I see that your definition of maturity is "be nice to idiots".

[Shinova]

Do you not understand that you are supporting the very reason I started thsi thread?

I am not cause while the Force can't be debated with physics cause it's basically magic and we have to just accept it as it is, a person holding up a subway car can be analyzed with physics.

Now, unless there was some weird funky thing going on, that should not have been possible. Dismissing it as writer's intent or that it's just how it works in Spiderman-verse is not suspending disbelief.

[KK]

And for the umpteenth time, we can't see the whole rear edge, so we don't know if the other end was propped up on something. We know the subway car should have deformed if held up like that, UNLESS the other end was supported. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that it was supported.

It is in NO WAY reasonable to assume it was propped up. The scene was written as Spider-Man lifting the car. Do you think the artist went behind the writer's back or something?

And I like how you snipped the point about the MU having metals that dwarf real world metals, that wouldn't deform.

If there is more than one way to explain why the thing didn't deform properly, you go with the one that keeps the spirit of the writer's intention in mind rather than the one that ignores the writer's intention.

Now you'll tell me that it requires telepathy to know the writer didn't put, "Spider-Man lifts the subway car, but there is a rock off-panel to make it secretly less impressive than it looks." in his script.

Moreover, even if he is capable of lifting a 30 ton subway car, that is only twice the official stats, which would imply that he doubled his strength since he first became Spiderman. Humans can double their strength through exercise, so this is not unreasonable,

So why am I stupid for pointing it out if it isn't unreasonable?

but it is still not enough to make his throat survive multi-ton TK.

Which I covered, noting that the 20 minutes Spidey can go without breathing would be more than enouhg to break the Jedi's concentration and TK hold.

Both of these points were made before. You responded with mockery rather than logical rebuttals. I grow tired of your refusal to address points.

No, I responded by noting Spider-Man's ability to hold his breath for an insane ammount of time and the Jedi's need for concentration to apply multi-tons of TK.

Yes, I looked at the evidence and attempted to construct an explanation which makes physical sense.

Who are you kidding? You attempted to construct an *excuse* that purpously changed the intentions of the writer in the scene.

You, on the other hand, construct an explanation which does NOT make physical sense, and you act as though it MORE reasonable for some reason.

Stronger metal. Explination done.

Wong: "Spider-Man can only lift 15 tons at max using every muscle in his body, according to his official stats."
Me: "No, 15 tons is the ammount he can do benchpress reps with, and he can lift more, as seen here, here, here, and here."
Wong: "That piece of metal didn't dent right!"
[continue, until...]
Wong: "You're stupid. A person can deadlift more than they can benchpress, dumb-ass. So just because he can deadlift more than 15 tons doesn't mean he can benchpress that much!"

Or more accurately:
Krackhead: the 15-ton stats are bullshit!
Me: prove it
Krackhead: these scans show that he must be much stronger than that!
Me: not if you interpret them in a physically rational way
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: then how do you know he can't lift a subway car with a 15 ton lift, since that's a physics situation?
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: see previous rebuttal
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: are you some kind of fucking moron? See above.
Krackhead: physics doesn't apply!
Me: <gets bored and stops responding>
Krackhead: you didn't address my point! I win![/quote]

What's funny is that I could provide quotes from the actual discussion that would come out nearly identical to my paraphrased version, while you couldn't.

Actually, 15 tons was his OVERHEAD lift, which is different from deadlift, you idiot. The average person can deadlift twice what he can overhead press. Benchpress has nothing to do with it. I am not responsible for your ignorance. And yet again, this is a point I made earlier, and which you ignored.

Except that the Class system has always been described as benchpress.

The point is not what press it uses. The point is that you used the ammount he can press as the maximum ammount he could lift utilizing every muscle in his body, which isn't true, as you yourself explained above.

You're full of shit. You draw a false dilemma between completely infinite determinism and zero determinism. Take meteorology for example; you can predict tomorrow's weather much more accurately than you can predict next week's weather. If (for example) a cold front is moving rapidly toward a hot, humid mass of air, it is a no-brainer that it will rain. This is a deterministic situation; does that mean weather prediction is 100% reliable? Of course not.

So what exactly is the big hint to Luke that his friends will be tortured light-years away?

Or rather, first would you mind stating if you think The Force fully complies with logical, realistic physics?

[KK]

I feel rather justified now in the DBZ debate, considering you applied the SAME FUCKING TACTICS to the Spiderman thread, and STILL got your ass kicked.

You can honestly say you feel justified arguing that a Sith lord could beat a Buu saga Z-Senshi?

Or did you completely miss the point of this thread, which was in regards to the DBZ debate much more than the Spider-Man one?

The Force is "magical" hence it can do anything.

Ki is "magical" yet it has to be explained down to the tenth decimal place.

[David]

Stronger metal. Explination done.

You assume it is, that does not mean it is necessarily the case.


Even with stronger metals in real life we do not construct box cars out of anything better than steel. We could build it out of titanium but there is no reason to go to that expense for a boxcar.


Assuming we had the metals of the MU we still would make railroad cars and such out of steel, because there would be no reason to make it out of anything better.

[KK]

Kiss my ass, fuckwad. You opened this thread so you could spout the same bullshit in two threads. I merely cut it back down to one.

Oh yeah. No.

This was mainly about ki vs. The Force and how McLoad demands that ki effects be explained with physics while The Force can get away with anything.


And you WERE trying to get the last word in, or you would have simply closed it without replying. For instence, you saying it's bullshit to claim he didn't roll with a blow, even though in the picture I showed he was pushed up against a hard surface (namely Juggernaut's helmet) and had nowhere to roll. I posted the picture, so you damn well knew that, and didn't want me to have a chance to point it out again.

[KK]

[quote="Shinova"]
I am not cause while the Force can't be debated with physics cause it's basically magic and we have to just accept it as it is, a person holding up a subway car can be analyzed with physics.
quote]

And DBZ ki? How do you explain the need to analyze the shit out of that?

[Shinova]

I am not cause while the Force can't be debated with physics cause it's basically magic and we have to just accept it as it is, a person holding up a subway car can be analyzed with physics.

And DBZ ki? How do you explain the need to analyze the shit out of that?

You sure it's me you're talking to, not Connor?

[AdmiralKanos]

It is in NO WAY reasonable to assume it was propped up. The scene was written as Spider-Man lifting the car. Do you think the artist went behind the writer's back or something?

Have you talked to the writer? No? Then stop bullshitting about what he was thinking.

And I like how you snipped the point about the MU having metals that dwarf real world metals, that wouldn't deform.

The fact that I did not bother addressing that incredibly stupid argument does not make it valid. If the MU had metals which dwarf real-world metals in strength, then any competent engineer would have designed that subway car so that it weighed much less than 30 tons. This would produce much greater fuel efficiency and make sense in every way, since the stronger material makes it possible to reach structural strength design goals without so much material.

But of course, that's the sort of practical reasoning that evades your idiot mind. I was charitable to you when I ignored that point, since it is actually better for me to agree that they're using super-strong metal since that would imply that the subway car is very light.

So why am I stupid for pointing it out if it isn't unreasonable?

You are stupid for claiming that you have proven the Class 15 designation to be "bullshit", when you have done nothing of the sort.

but it is still not enough to make his throat survive multi-ton TK.

Which I covered, noting that the 20 minutes Spidey can go without breathing would be more than enouhg to break the Jedi's concentration and TK hold.

Which I already refuted, by pointing out that the Jedi could simply go after other delicates in his neck if he wants a quicker takedown, such as his carotid artery. Your response, as I recall, was to deny that the Jedi can do this and ignore literature examples of them doing so.

Stronger metal. Explination done.

Thank you. Your explanation is even better than mine, since a subway made out of unnaturally strong metal would naturally be very light. Concession accepted; Spiderman is still Class 15, just as the writers say.

What's funny is that I could provide quotes from the actual discussion that would come out nearly identical to my paraphrased version, while you couldn't.

I'm sure you can do lots of things with out-of-context quoting, but the fact remains that you have committed the stolen concept fallacy. You take the real-life weight of a typical subway car, declare that it proves the Class 15 designation wrong, and then declare that all real-life physics and data are inapplicable, as if you are honestly too fucking stupid to realize you just contradicted yourself.

I agree that the "stronger metal" explanation actually works to explain the picture just as well as the notion that the subway is made from real-life metal and perched on something that's cut off by the frame border. However, what you are obviously too stupid to realize is that either explanation actually supports my argument, not yours.

Except that the Class system has always been described as benchpress.

The point is not what press it uses. The point is that you used the ammount he can press as the maximum ammount he could lift utilizing every muscle in his body, which isn't true, as you yourself explained above.

For the second time, you do use every muscle in your body when you press something over your head. It's more efficient when you deadlift, but that doesn't mean you aren't using your whole body when you lift something over your head!

I'm growing very tired of the way you ignore rebuttals and then later pretend they were never made. It's pretty clear that you hope to win through sheer endurance, figuring that if you just persistently post the same bullshit over and over, you will eventually outlast your opponent and be able to tell people how it ended.

You're full of shit. You draw a false dilemma between completely infinite determinism and zero determinism. Take meteorology for example; you can predict tomorrow's weather much more accurately than you can predict next week's weather. If (for example) a cold front is moving rapidly toward a hot, humid mass of air, it is a no-brainer that it will rain. This is a deterministic situation; does that mean weather prediction is 100% reliable? Of course not.

So what exactly is the big hint to Luke that his friends will be tortured light-years away?

Given Vader's presence and plans, there is not much that could change that timeline by the time Luke notices it. What part of this don't you understand?

Or rather, first would you mind stating if you think The Force fully complies with logical, realistic physics?

Of course not. Spiderman's powers don't comply with logical, realistic physics either. But if a Force user or superhero lifts something weighing 100 tons, then we can reasonably conclude that he can do so in the future. The trick is to show that it really is 100 tons, and you can't do that by cherry-picking parts of pictures which should be analyzed and telling us to ignore the rest. If we're going by writer's intent, you know perfectly well that they didn't bother to research the weight of a subway car before writing that, so stop invoking "writer's intent" for your bullshit argument.

[KK]

You sure it's me you're talking to, not Connor?

I made this thread with his arguments in mind, since I tried to get that debate going again but the thread got closed.

The Spider-Man thing sort of got slipped in and took over.

[AdmiralKanos]

And you WERE trying to get the last word in, or you would have simply closed it without replying.

Or I could have told you to continue it here, which is precisely what you're doing. Your ad-hominems don't strengthen your bullshit argument or justify your selective applications of physics.

For instence, you saying it's bullshit to claim he didn't roll with a blow, even though in the picture I showed he was pushed up against a hard surface (namely Juggernaut's helmet) and had nowhere to roll. I posted the picture, so you damn well knew that, and didn't want me to have a chance to point it out again.

Ah, I must have missed that in the 19-page thread. Please post that picture of the "nuke-dwarfing" blast again, so we may see how you bullshitted it.

[AdmiralKanos]

Public Service Announcement: KK's claims about super-strong Marvel Universe metals are a perfectly valid explanation, which we will now officially adopt.

This means that objects in the Marvel Universe can be made ultra-light thanks to these super-metals, which will undoubtedly be a boon for fuel efficiency and mountain bike retailers.

This also means that it's really easy to lift large objects in the Marvel Universe, which actually explains a lot.

Thank you KK, for showing us why all of the pictures of Marvel superheroes lifting large objects really don't mean shit.

[KK]

The fact that I did not bother addressing that incredibly stupid argument does not make it valid. If the MU had metals which dwarf real-world metals in strength, then any competent engineer would have designed that subway car so that it weighed much less than 30 tons. This would produce much greater fuel efficiency and make sense in every way, since the stronger material makes it possible to reach structural strength design goals without so much material.

But of course, that's the sort of practical reasoning that evades your idiot mind. I was charitable to you when I ignored that point, since it is actually better for me to agree that they're using super-strong metal since that would imply that the subway car is very light.

Less material or not, the ammount of material shown in the picture would still be a fair deal more than 15 tons. I doubt they could cut the weight of the thing in half by using less of more dense metal.

You are stupid for claiming that you have proven the Class 15 designation to be "bullshit", when you have done nothing of the sort.

I called the Handbooks bullshit. Not the Class 15 designation.

Spider-Man's designation makes sense, but not *because of* the handbooks.

Look at a guy like The Thing, who is designated as Class 70. He has lifted thousands of tons, and yet he's still Class 70, because the class system measures characters against one another more than strictly on what they can lift. Class 100 would imply that he is as strong as the Hulk or Thor, which he isn't, even though he can easily lift 100 tons. Or Wonder Man, who si always said to be just a tiny bit weaker than Thor, yet he's designated Class 95 instead of Class 100. That's just to show that he's not quite on par with THor or the Hulk. But Thor can lift way more than 100 tons, and Wonder Man can lift way more than 100 tons, but not as much as Thor.

The Class system itself isn't a canon reference for how strong characters are.

What I disagreed with was that being Class 15 means Spidey couldn't lift any more than 15 tons, not that 15 tons wasn't a reasonable estimate of his press (which as far as I know is benchpresspress; not overhead press).

Which I already refuted, by pointing out that the Jedi could simply go after other delicates in his neck if he wants a quicker takedown, such as his carotid artery. Your response, as I recall, was to deny that the Jedi can do this and ignore literature examples of them doing so.

I denied that Luke was an accurate representation of a true Jedi. Which is absolutely true, since he is stated to not be a Jedi.

Even with him as an example, you couldn't support Jedi popping carotid arteries. Even Luke only stopped their breath long enough to get them gasping and too afraid to follow him, as stated in the literature.

I'm sure you can do lots of things with out-of-context quoting, but the fact remains that you have committed the stolen concept fallacy. You take the real-life weight of a typical subway car, declare that it proves the Class 15 designation wrong, and then declare that all real-life physics and data are inapplicable, as if you are honestly too fucking stupid to realize you just contradicted yourself.

I did no such thing, because I never claimed he couldn't be disignated as Class 15. My very first post in response to you was saying that the 15 tons is based on his press, and not his maximum lift. Then you replied to my scans by saying that he wouldn't need to be able to press those to lift them, as though I ever said I was trying to claim he could press more than 15 tons.

For the second time, you do use every muscle in your body when you press something over your head. It's more efficient when you deadlift, but that doesn't mean you aren't using your whole body when you lift something over your head!

You'll have to provide the text that states overhead press is what the Class ranking is based on, first of all.

I'm growing very tired of the way you ignore rebuttals and then later pretend they were never made. It's pretty clear that you hope to win through sheer endurance, figuring that if you just persistently post the same bullshit over and over, you will eventually outlast your opponent and be able to tell people how it ended.

Do you want me to count the numberof times I had to tell people that the Jedi having precog doesn't automatically give him better refexes, since Spider-Man ALSO has precog, only to see somebody 5 posts later saying, "Spider-man can have .0000000032 second reflexes if he wants. The Jedi has negative reflexes. So there!"?

I have had to deal with my fair share of answering the same points over and over again from the same people.

Given Vader's presence and plans, there is not much that could change that timeline by the time Luke notices it. What part of this don't you understand?

How does Luke notice it?

Of course not.

Accepted.

Spiderman's powers don't comply with logical, realistic physics either. But if a Force user or superhero lifts something weighing 100 tons, then we can reasonably conclude that he can do so in the future. The trick is to show that it really is 100 tons, and you can't do that by cherry-picking parts of pictures which should be analyzed and telling us to ignore the rest. If we're going by writer's intent, you know perfectly well that they didn't bother to research the weight of a subway car before writing that, so stop invoking "writer's intent" for your bullshit argument.

That's true. I hadn't considered the possibility of the writer underestimating the weight of the subway car. It doesn't make much sense that he wrote Spider-Man as making a big deal out of it and talking about how this is his true power when not holding back if he thought the subway car was light, but it's possible.



Beyond Spider-Man's powers, how about the DBZ thing? Is their any more logical reason to apply physics to ki than their is reason to apply physics to the Force?

[KK]

Ah, I must have missed that in the 19-page thread. Please post that picture of the "nuke-dwarfing" blast again, so we may see how you bullshitted it.

I don't remember what the nuke dwarfing pic was.

But here was the Juggernaut picture, in which he pretty clearly doesn't (and couldn't) roll with any of the blows.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/shurukudemon ... nched1.jpg

The picture with the Hulk is followed by the Hulk jumping on him and pounding him into the ground, iirc. But I don't have the book to clarify if I remember that correctly.

[KhyronTheBackstabber]

And for the umpteenth time, we can't see the whole rear edge, so we don't know if the other end was propped up on something. We know the subway car should have deformed if held up like that, UNLESS the other end was supported. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to argue that it was supported.

As a general rule of thumb, when drawing a scene the artist has to show everything relevant in the scene. If the writer had indented for the car to be supported, the artist would have drawn it at another angle, so we could see the support. And at the very less, the artist would have drawn the edge of something going off the side. Also, if you look at the placement of the right hand, and how he's got a grip on that window, it suggests that he's pulling down, to lift the back end off the ground. As to why the car didn't bend, the artist more then likely thought it was strong enough to support it's own weight.

[Crown]

KK

Do you really want us to apply physics when analysing Yoda's abilities. Because if we did, we could show that he is actually physically stronger than Spiderman!

Now, before you reply I really want you to think before you reply.

[ShinjiGohan]

I was reading this post but by the second page it was off track completely so I jumped to the reply lol.


Anyway. When people believe that the force allows a person to do such and such thing, they accept that because thats apart of the force.

So when something else happens that is just the way it is with another term or power. Like the speed force or ki. Wally in the force can manipulate anything that deals with speed. And can choose which laws of physics he wants to obey like doing a punch with infinite mass. Granted he shouldn't be able to move with that much mass, yet he can. Its just an accepted ability of those that can use the speed force.

And it'd felt that if you can suspend belief and accept as it is, then you should do the say for other powers that require the same.

Also note, even SW has messed up with some laws of physics (like when yoda lands from a jump in Ep2, as even Lucas notes in the making of SW Ep2). Should that mean that everything in SW Ep2 is thrown out? No, but there are some things that aren't worth nitpicking and just accept as fact.

But I'll end it there, no need to go off topic again for 9 pages arguing our stances.