Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[Ziggy Stardust]

They did that last season with The Pimp. It had been almost a full season since he'd done anything heinous, then you see him gloating over letting Joffrey use Ros for crossbow practice. Sometimes they remind the viewers that a character is a major asshole. Jaime is a scumbag, pure and simple. The fact that he may have saved Kings Landing from being burned is an outlier, as is his relative kindness to Brienne.

(This comment isn't specifically directed at Elfdart. It's a general comment, but in response to something multiple people have said in this thread. I only chose Elfdart for being the latest person to talk about Jaime, not because I specifically disagree with him. That said…)

It really bothers me that people insist on seeing Jaime (or any other character) through these rigid good/bad lines, when it is explicitly not the point being made by the show. It is strange that people insist on thinking of him as being good or bad, and that his various action tip the scales one way or the other. Yes, Jaime is a person who has done bad things (attempted child murder and rape, for starters) and good things (stopped the Mad King, helped Brienne, etc.). He is deserving both of scorn (not just for his bad actions, but his general air of doughiness) and sympathy (complicated relationship with his father, etc.).

It is possible to sympathize with a bad person, and it is possible to dislike a good person. Good and bad are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It is a point that both Martin and the show-runners have been pretty obvious about emphasizing. It's idiotic to say things like, "Well, now Jaime is BAD AGAIN! Derp de derp." It's an incredibly shallow way to view the show that only does it disservice.

[Spekio]

EDIT: NEVERMIND

[Ralin]

Given Cersei's weird obsession with having pure Lannister blood on the throne, as well as her willingness to poison her own son Tommen, I think she's a prime suspect. Killing off Joffrey before he knocks up Margery makes her Queen Regent again. I'm also convinced that if the story she told Mrs Stark is true, and she had a black-haired boy with Robert who died, then it wasn't a natural death. She killed her own son so his place could be taken in the future by a newer, "better" one. That's my theory.

That was less about wanting pure Lannister blood and more about her utterly fucking hating Robert and anything associated with him.

[Scrib]

They did that last season with The Pimp. It had been almost a full season since he'd done anything heinous, then you see him gloating over letting Joffrey use Ros for crossbow practice. Sometimes they remind the viewers that a character is a major asshole. Jaime is a scumbag, pure and simple. The fact that he may have saved Kings Landing from being burned is an outlier, as is his relative kindness to Brienne.

(This comment isn't specifically directed at Elfdart. It's a general comment, but in response to something multiple people have said in this thread. I only chose Elfdart for being the latest person to talk about Jaime, not because I specifically disagree with him. That said…)

It really bothers me that people insist on seeing Jaime (or any other character) through these rigid good/bad lines, when it is explicitly not the point being made by the show. It is strange that people insist on thinking of him as being good or bad, and that his various action tip the scales one way or the other. Yes, Jaime is a person who has done bad things (attempted child murder and rape, for starters) and good things (stopped the Mad King, helped Brienne, etc.). He is deserving both of scorn (not just for his bad actions, but his general air of doughiness) and sympathy (complicated relationship with his father, etc.).

It is possible to sympathize with a bad person, and it is possible to dislike a good person. Good and bad are not necessarily mutually exclusive. It is a point that both Martin and the show-runners have been pretty obvious about emphasizing. It's idiotic to say things like, "Well, now Jaime is BAD AGAIN! Derp de derp." It's an incredibly shallow way to view the show that only does it disservice.

Meh...the problem is really not with thinking of Jaime as a good or bad person imo. With that we get into this strange,adamant relativistic, "everyone is grey!!" thing that used to happen on the official forums a while ago. You can totally think he's a bad person overall. At some point, a decision is made on where people stand. It doesn't mean that you can't have a nuanced opinion and understanding of prior causes, you've just decided their relative importance.

The issue is the redemption thing. And that is tied into how Jaime sees himself. The problem is that redemption as defined by fans mostly seems to be more about what cues were received this week and how much we like a character than anything. Which makes sense because otherwise, without some religious bullshit about beliefs redeeming how exactly are you going to weigh the sins of the accused? It just seems awkward, weighing acts and deciding which ones merit more punishment.

But again, it's one thing to have a problem with how the scale is weighed week in week out and outright claiming that anything that swings it permanently in one direction is wrong. That is an even stronger claim to me that someone saying that Jaime is good or bad "now". You're not only assuming the reductionism you want to be true you're also using it against your enemies.

Jaime being a scumbag is defensible position without any of the reductionist thinking you seem to dislike.

[Elfdart]

After watching Godfather 2 the other night, I think I've figured out the reasoning behind the rape scene (which I'm told did not appear as a rape scene in the books). The Lannisters appear to be coming apart at the seams. Not only if Joffrey W. Bush dead, but his little brother Jeb is now up at bat. Cersei and Tywin appear ready to feed Tyrion to the sharks. After being rebuffed by Cersei, for whom he risked everything (including lighting the match that set the country on fire), Jamie decided to break his "chains" (the theme of this episode) by doing something unforgivable and ending their relationship once and for all. In other words, instead of showing their bond fraying over time, they had Jamie do something truly awful to speed things up.

[Scrib]

Tommen has no chance.

[Vympel]

So after this week's episode, if TV watchers-only haven't figured out it was Olenna Tyrell who poisoned Joffrey with the jewel she picked off Sansa's necklace while she was pretending to fuss over her hair ("the wind's been at you") then they're clinically dead

So book readers got spoiled this week too. Great development. Really loved that final scene, it was just beautiful.

I like how Jaime is getting some swagger back.

Karl, the leader of the mutineers, is one creepy fucker. I really like that actor. Drinking from the skull of the Lord Commander was depraved.

I wonder how they'll handle Bran being held captive at Crasters. Will Jon rescue him?

Odds on Ghost ripping Locke's throat out?

[NeoGoomba]

I liked the shot of faux Icecrown Citadel before the White Walkers showed up en masse.

[Elfdart]

Tommen has no chance.

Not against Margery he doesn't.


Do you mind if I sneak into your room again tomorrow night?


I'm not Renly, for cryin' out loud!


Great! Guess what we'll be talking about...

Poor kid.


Why did Mom put four guards outside my room now?

[Kane Starkiller]

Finally White Walkers!
Apparently the White Walker at the Fortess of Solitude is of a new type? So now we have three classes: the zombies, soldiers and these wizard dudes that can turn a human into...zombie or a soldier? Hopefully this is the beginning of them being developed into an actual "sentient" civilization rather than just a seemingly mindless zombie horde with unknowable goals sweeping in from the north.

Was it me or was the takeover of Meereen a little too convenient? I mean they know they are under siege and no one guards that sewer drain so that the attackers can easily smuggle weapons inside? Come on.

[Steel]

Finally White Walkers!
Apparently the White Walker at the Fortess of Solitude is of a new type? So now we have three classes: the zombies, soldiers and these wizard dudes that can turn a human into...zombie or a soldier? Hopefully this is the beginning of them being developed into an actual "sentient" civilization rather than just a seemingly mindless zombie horde with unknowable goals sweeping in from the north.

Was it me or was the takeover of Meereen a little too convenient? I mean they know they are under siege and no one guards that sewer drain so that the attackers can easily smuggle weapons inside? Come on.

They are a bunch of arseholes who rely on slaves to do their fighting, and haven't had to fight a proper war for decades (centuries?)

[Vympel]

Re: the White Walkers, the HBO Viewer's guide had a pretty significant spoiler - (seperate from showing us how White Walkers are created, which noone ever knew) even for book readers. They changed it quickly to obscure the spoiler, but the internet does not forget.

Link - do not look at it unless you want to be spoiled for the books too

[LaCroix]

To me it was the "Others", turning a human baby into a "white walker" - a Human-Other hybrid.

The stories of wilding women laying with Others to create hybrids might simply been a convenient interpretation. After all, nobody was around to watch that happen, they just knew that such hybrids showed up. It is very much possible that they always did it that way, "infecting" a newborn with their power.

Since there are only very few Others left, they heavily rely on the hybrids these days. They probably have a couple of places like Craster's going to supply their army, and now have amassed enough troops (including Wights) that they can finally march south.

[TheHammer]

I liked the shot of faux Icecrown Citadel before the White Walkers showed up en masse.

Interesting to note that they had such a place, rather than simply wondering the wastes in a Nomadic fashion. It gives a logical explanation of what happened to them at the end of season 2/start of 3 make more sense as to why they didn't continue to march on the wall after attacking the Night's Watch. Its clear they didn't feel ready for such an action, rather were merely pushing them back out of necessity before they got too close to their home base.

[LaCroix]

And it makes Craster's actions even more damning - as he is personally supporting the Others with raw materials to produce more Walkers. Just immagine how many children he must have offered them during his reign at his keep - and each of those is now a fighter against humanity who can only by hurt by dragonglass or valyrian steel.

He made a pact with the devils, and gave them an army to break free from their x-thousand years of forced exile.

[Thanas]

Here is my solution to the white walker problem: Arm people with maces and clubs. Seriously. It is not like white walkers can wallk on shattered bones and you can still use most of the fighting techniques with a mace.

And the Knight's watch, a sorry bunch of fighters if there ever was compared to the armies fielded by any of the pretenders for the crown managed to hold off an attack by white walkers with fire and usual weapons.

Heck, give me a real life Late Roman/early Byzantine field army and I can pretty much guarantee the whole bunch of white walkers would not be able to cross the wall. Preferrably the palestinian legions who were trained especially in the use of clubs, maces and staves.

[LaCroix]

Good idea, have the main force break their legs, and some trailing guys with dragonglass or valyrian daggers finish the crawling victims off. Or erect bonfires to throw them on.

[Kane Starkiller]

I kind of got the impression that the last time White Walkers invaded they just waited until the exceptionally long winter is in full swing and the people were dropping like flies due to cold and hunger anyway. Then they struck, revived the hordes of well preserved corpses and swept through the continent. Their ability to thrive in cold while everyone else is dying seems to be their biggest advantage rather than any exceptional fighting skills or numbers.

[Scrib]

Here is my solution to the white walker problem: Arm people with maces and clubs. Seriously. It is not like white walkers can wallk on shattered bones and you can still use most of the fighting techniques with a mace.

And the Knight's watch, a sorry bunch of fighters if there ever was compared to the armies fielded by any of the pretenders for the crown managed to hold off an attack by white walkers with fire and usual weapons.

Heck, give me a real life Late Roman/early Byzantine field army and I can pretty much guarantee the whole bunch of white walkers would not be able to cross the wall. Preferrably the palestinian legions who were trained especially in the use of clubs, maces and staves.

The Night's Watch managed to hold off a bunch of wights. They didn't hurt any Walkers. I don't think that we've ever seen them in force. A few walker was seen attacking the NW at the end of S2. And this is assuming that the Walkers don't heal in some special way.

They seem to prefer wars of attrition anyway. If you're stuck beyond the wall you're going to be in trouble. Assaulting them is almost certainly out. Any offense is doomed.

Also: you're not considering the mechanics of the universe as described by the TV show itself: their power may not be static. Look at the warlocks. When Dany's dragons were born (or perhaps they were born because of the increased magic)they became far more powerful, even able to appear in multiple places at once,and the stronger they got the worse it was. What makes you think that it's not the same for the White Walkers? That they don't get more aggressive, powerful or whatever? I mean, the timing is quite convenient.

As for stopping them from crossing the Wall:well, part of that might have to do with the fact that it's a BFW.I suppose, with good quarantining for the dead and constant supplies and high morale, you can keep most things out. And the GoT wiki says that it's magic too so you have that. Success probably has more to do with the Wall than the force on it.

[Thanas]

Good idea, have the main force break their legs, and some trailing guys with dragonglass or valyrian daggers finish the crawling victims off. Or erect bonfires to throw them on.

Just give me a few dozen Byzantine galley crews and a tenth of the Imperial arsenal of Constantinople. Greek fire to the face all day. Pump pump, swoosh swoosh. Problem solved in one huge barbecue by Byzantine firehose. So far the white walkers are utterly unimpressive.

The Night's Watch managed to hold off a bunch of wights. They didn't hurt any Walkers. I don't think that we've ever seen them in force. A few walker was seen attacking the NW at the end of S2. And this is assuming that the Walkers don't heal in some special way.

Yeah and yet the NW survived. And I would love to see a walker healing himself after having his head meet a battle mace. Or having his head taken off by a ballista dart. Those things could - with accuracy up to 200m - take off the head of a man and throw it dozens of meters. Seriously, any post-AD professional army should deal with them with ease.

They seem to prefer wars of attrition anyway. If you're stuck beyond the wall you're going to be in trouble. Assaulting them is almost certainly out. Any offense is doomed.

Good, defence is better anyway.

Also: you're not considering the mechanics of the universe as described by the TV show itself: their power may not be static. Look at the warlocks. When Dany's dragons were born (or perhaps they were born because of the increased magic)they became far more powerful, even able to appear in multiple places at once,and the stronger they got the worse it was. What makes you think that it's not the same for the White Walkers? That they don't get more aggressive, powerful or whatever? I mean, the timing is quite convenient.

Sure, but I have a hard time any character in the TV show, magic or not, would survive an assault on a real prepared position. I mean, first you got ballista bolts to the face. Then you got caltrops and traps of the "oh god, there is a spear in my anus penetrating my inner organs" type. Then you got all kinds of missile weapons. Then greek fire, which is impossible to put out with anything but sand or really deep water (guess what is not there on the north). And then you go up against rested troops who are just waiting to shower you with all kind of projectiles (including funny ones that are designed to impact you from directly above). Then after that you get your head bashed in by the rested troops with maces and other blunt impacts. (Seriously, I have seen skulls with impact wounds by those kind of weapons. NOT PRETTY). If white walkers can survive that then they would have swallowed up the seven kingdoms long ago.

As for stopping them from crossing the Wall:well, part of that might have to do with the fact that it's a BFW.I suppose, with good quarantining for the dead and constant supplies and high morale, you can keep most things out. And the GoT wiki says that it's magic too so you have that. Success probably has more to do with the Wall than the force on it.

Even without the wall I have a hard time seeing the white walkers as a huge threat. Most people just underestimate the fighting power of medieval times, especially when it came to wrecking stuff from a prepared position.

[Mr Bean]

Even without the wall I have a hard time seeing the white walkers as a huge threat. Most people just underestimate the fighting power of medieval times, especially when it came to wrecking stuff from a prepared position.

And how useful are your armies and soldiers when it's -30 degrees Celsius outside for a month?

Nothing in the legends and stories indicate that the White Walkers are a conventional military force with battle lines and supply caches and the like. Instead it seems they prefer to pick off stragglers, wait until it's cold and make it cold then wait for the humans to freeze so they have fresh corpses to use against more dug in foes. The fist was like this, a few dozen White Walkers leading a thousand plus walking corpses thrown at a prepared position. They left the Watch alone until then and only snatched up stragglers who fell behind but otherwise simply harried them.

Everything so far points to a non-conventional force.

[Thanas]

Apparently since the White walkers have been beaten before (and since the night watch did not freeze) the capacity of those things to manipulate the weather into a decisive advantage is way overdone.

[fgalkin]

Apparently since the White walkers have been beaten before (and since the night watch did not freeze) the capacity of those things to manipulate the weather into a decisive advantage is way overdone.

Huh? Outside the current disaster at the Fist, the Night's Watch never faced the White Walkers in any real numbers (except possibly during the Night King's rein).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Apparently since the White walkers have been beaten before (and since the night watch did not freeze) the capacity of those things to manipulate the weather into a decisive advantage is way overdone.

The only know fight between the Others and the Night's Watch is the rein of the Night King who was possibly a White Walker himself and had the Night's watch on his side and faced off against the King beyond the Wall and the Stark in Winterfell. And as for that..

Spoiler

There is evidence to support the fact that the Night King story is mostly myth. Further there is theories which I subscribe to now that the White raised the wall not men. That at first the Wall marked the border between the realms of men and the White Walkers. The only direct man on Walker war was the Long Winter and that's told in so much mythology that relevant details are nearly impossible to find. There is so much that remains unknown but the show spoiler from this week set off everyone to look closer at the whole history with a more skeptical eye.

George love an unreliable point of view and the editing of history. The idea that the Whites built the wall to signify the treaty between the Others and men. The fact the Night's watch was never in any serious danger except from the Wildings who themselves were never in danger as long as they held to a treaty so old they forgot it's provisions. It's something that makes sense as a perfect RR Martin heel turn on the reader.

[Scrib]

Apparently since the White walkers have been beaten before (and since the night watch did not freeze) the capacity of those things to manipulate the weather into a decisive advantage is way overdone.

Huh? Outside the current disaster at the Fist, the Night's Watch never faced the White Walkers in any real numbers (except possibly during the Night King's rein).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Yeah, this is kinda the wrong thread to be having this discussion. Because what happened in the Night King's reign doesn't even disprove your point but that requires book knowledge. So maybe this should be moved to the other thread.

As for them being beaten before: the show itself doesn't make it clear that there was a titanic struggle. The White Walkers came, they maybe fought a few battles and a Wall was built to keep them out. This is as far as the show has gotten. Who knows how it ended?

Even without the wall I have a hard time seeing the white walkers as a huge threat. Most people just underestimate the fighting power of medieval times, especially when it came to wrecking stuff from a prepared position.

Remove the Wall. So...prepared position somewhere in the North. You're stuck there, and the wights are outside. It's cold as fuck, but you have supplies (if you're lucky I suppose)...for now. Sure, you can move out but do you really want to do it in anything but large numbers given what's out there? So you're stuck inside, freezing your balls off. The Walkers are waiting for you to crack and try to leave. IT's so cold that growing stuff is hard and, since you're stuck, you can't defend anyone outside as they pick off all the small hamlets, adding to their army.

Food is running out, everything is snowed in and your enemies are getting stronger and stronger while the weak among you die. You're (eventually )fucked, the only question is how long you could survive before you got fucked, and how long the Walkers could wait. You would know I suppose, seeing as this is your thing.

It's not so much that we think that a bunch of knights can't fuck things up, it's that we don't think they can fuck things up forever given the sort of situation they're in.

That said, I wonder if Martin thinks like you. The tragicomedy of the series is built on the fact that you have a bunch of selfish bastards fighting over scraps while the real enemy is about to steal the boar right out from under them. Perhaps the whole point is that they could deal with it, if they weren't such huge dicks. A lot of people think that Dany-or other things-are the key but Martin could go for something more mundane than that.