Witch-King of Angmar and the Black Riders

[Murazor]

Didn't Glorfindel come back from the Undying Lands like Gandalf did? I mean, it's a big retcon by Tolkien, but I was under the impression that by the time he was fighting Angmar, he'd already left then come back.

He dies in Gondolin, spends some time in Aman where he somehow gets a serious power boost and is then sent back before the end of the Second Age to make possible the creation of the Last Alliance against Sauron. Then spents the next several thousand years waiting in the sidelines.

[Stark]

Being sent back always seems to involve a major power boost, and being an Elf seems to involve a lot of standing around doing nothing. Guess that explains their piss-poor population, when they live for thousands of years.

When Sauron was hiding out at Dol Goldur, he was called the 'Necromancer', since that's what he was doing and there was no positive ID. However, the list of suspects would have been pretty short - really, it could only possibly have been Sauron or the Witch-King. I know Saruman jerked the Council around, but sitting on your hands for two hundred years when Sauron is *clearly* back is just absurd.

ANYWAY, that's another example of someone being defined by their magical power and being a serious threat to whole nations. So since the other Nazgul just seem to be scary wraith-people with swords, I'm leaning toward the Witch-King being such a major player due to magic. Movie-Nazgul are lame enough (defeated by a hobo with a torch) but even in the book they are scared off by Elves, Wizards, all sorts of things. Then again, didn't Gandalf have a magic fight with some Nazgul on Weathertop? The Witch-King wasn't there.

[Gandalf]

Then again, didn't Gandalf have a magic fight with some Nazgul on Weathertop? The Witch-King wasn't there.

Yes he did.

While he was fighting, Weathertop was described as looking like "a beacon of old". Whether that means he lit a big fire, or threw fireballs, is open to interpretation.

As for the "hobo with the torch", remember in the book that instead of a bit of flaming wood and a sword, he had two bits of flaming wood.

[Stark]

At least in the book he didn't leave the his super devilslaying magic sword on a bloody plinth not a hundred meters from smiths who could repair it. No, he carried it around and waved it at people saying 'hey, I'm famous'.

[Balrog]

Then again, didn't Gandalf have a magic fight with some Nazgul on Weathertop? The Witch-King wasn't there.

Yes he did.

While he was fighting, Weathertop was described as looking like "a beacon of old". Whether that means he lit a big fire, or threw fireballs, is open to interpretation.

Actually you can read about the aftermath when Frodo and co. reach the hill:

On the top [of Weathertop] they found, as Strider had said, a wide ring of ancient stonework, now crumbling or covered with age-long grass. But in the centre a cairn of broken stones had been piled. They were blacked as if with fire. About them the turf was burned to the roots and all within the ring the grass was scorched and shrivelled, as if flames had swept the hill-top; but there was no sign of any living thing.
-A Knife in the Dark, p. 183

[Ted C]

Why was the Witch King confident at Minas Tirith? Because the full will of Sauron was focused on him, propping him up for his confrontation with Gandalf. Further, he'd heard the prophecy that he wouldn't be slain by a man, and Gandalf was a man in form, if not in spirit. He just didn't think that it was his appointed day to be destroyed (if such a day was ever going to come).

All the same, Gandalf was set to take him on, and he didn't seem terribly worried about it in the book. The arrival of the Rohirrim just distracted the Witch King and kept him from ever having it out with Gandalf.

[Ted C]

Maybe RTSs have corrupted my mind, but surely he could have let the Rohan forces chop up his largely worthless infantry for a few minutes while he killed Public Enemy Number One? Instead he leaves, ignoring his objective to go and slaughter regular, nonmagical human troops. I figure the total loss of the entire army he brought to Gondor would be worth destroying the gates and killing Gandalf, since that would basically guarantee victory for another assault. But I don't clearly remember the whole 'Sauron craps his pants over the Ring being at Gondor and attacks early' thing, so I'm probably missing something.

The Witch King's job wasn't to whack Gandalf, it was to recover the One Ring, which Sauron believed to be in Minas Tirith or on its way there. It never occurred to Sauron that his enemies would try to destroy the Ring, he figured one of them -- most likely Aragorn -- would try to wield it against him. Such an enemy would need time to bend the Ring to his will and resources upon which to use it, so that person would most likely hold up in Minas Tirith while he tried to tame the Ring.

It was therefore the Witch King's priority to make sure he secured the city, which meant dealing with the new threat to his army from the Rohirrim; he knew Gandalf wasn't going anywhere, and he needed to make sure his army didn't break. It wasn't everything it was supposed to be; news that the Ring was in the hands of the enemy had forced Sauron to move against Minas Tirith earlier than he had intended.

[Surlethe]

Mentioning Glorfindel again maybe suggests the Witch-King is maiar level power: Glorfindel is pretty absurdly powerful, and he didn't kill the Witch-King back in the Angmar days. Again, it's the Witch-King of Angmar kicking Arnors ass, not the Witch-King and his funky bunch. Glorfindel alone can deal with a few Nazgul, but once again the Witch-King is far more dangerous than them.

All Nine were at the fords leading up to Rivendell, and the fire panicked them and kept them from riding back out of the flood. I think Ted C's explanation of having Sauron focused on Minas Tirith giving the Witch-King a power boost is a decent one, as well.

Also, regarding Gandalf and the Balrog, remember that Gandalf had already spent himself fighting the Balrog immediately before he learns of it, and since he's limited by the Valar in the power he can bring to bear, he's not going to be able to whip the Balrog and move on with the party; instead, he's going to have to fight it out, possibly surrender his mortal body for a little bit, and -- this is key -- isn't going to be able to keep guiding the Fellowship. That's why he's bummed, I think, as opposed to being depressed at the prospect of losing to a Balrog. Remember, Olorin is, IIRC, pretty much equal in power to Sauron; he was just forbidden from outright dick-waving matches with him.

[Ted C]

Remember, Olorin is, IIRC, pretty much equal in power to Sauron; he was just forbidden from outright dick-waving matches with him.

Gandalf isn't as powerful as Sauron; he admitted as much himself to Pippin, I think, either early in RotK or late in TTT. He basically claimed to be the most dangerous being in Middle Earth short of Sauron.

Remember, Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar. By the time of the War of the Ring, he had frittered away a lot of that power in various schemes, but he started at the top of the heap, and he doesn't have the kind of restrictions that Gandalf does.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

[Remember, Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar.

No! Argh! I hate when people say this. Sauron was by no means the most powerful of all the Maiar. That particular title goes to Este the Pale, wife of Irmo. Sauron was among the most powerful Maia, of course, but he was not the most powerful. I think he was roughly in the top ten, possibly the top five.

[NeoGoomba]

No! Argh! I hate when people say this. Sauron was by no means the most powerful of all the Maiar. That particular title goes to Este the Pale, wife of Irmo. Sauron was among the most powerful Maia, of course, but he was not the most powerful. I think he was roughly in the top ten, possibly the top five.

I always held Manwe's herald (whos name escapes me at the moment) to hold the top spot with the Maiar. Now, thats in terms of "combat", considering the herald was always the most military-minded Maiar in the Silmarilion, and Sauron loses in almost every instance of combat he's in. I would say that Sauron is tops when it comes to outright skill, being Aule's #1 before Morgoth recruited him. Then add to his previous skills what he learned from the big M and when it comes to skill, subtlety, and craft, Sauron is in a league of his own.

Olorin I thought was the wisest Maiar, with Curinir-Sauruman being the most willful

[Ar-Adunakhor]

No! Argh! I hate when people say this. Sauron was by no means the most powerful of all the Maiar. That particular title goes to Este the Pale, wife of Irmo. Sauron was among the most powerful Maia, of course, but he was not the most powerful. I think he was roughly in the top ten, possibly the top five.

I always held Manwe's herald (whos name escapes me at the moment) to hold the top spot with the Maiar. Now, thats in terms of "combat", considering the herald was always the most military-minded Maiar in the Silmarilion, and Sauron loses in almost every instance of combat he's in. I would say that Sauron is tops when it comes to outright skill, being Aule's #1 before Morgoth recruited him. Then add to his previous skills what he learned from the big M and when it comes to skill, subtlety, and craft, Sauron is in a league of his own.

Olorin I thought was the wisest Maiar, with Curinir-Sauruman being the most willful

In skill of craft and overall power, Sauron is greater than Eonwe. Eonwe is, however, greater in skill of arms than Sauron. Of the various Maia; Este was the greatest in spellcraft, Eonwe the most skilled at arms, Sauron the most skilled in craft, Olorin the wisest, Vaire the most far-seeing, and Osse the strongest.

Those, however, are traits they bore, and do not determine their power. Este was the greatest in that sense, likened to the Vala in power but denying the responsibility they bore. With regards to the others, the best I can discern their power is as follows: Este, Sauron, Eonwe, Melian, Olorin, Osse, Vaire. Please bear in mind, however, that these levels are gleaned more from relative powers and little unrelated snippits describing them, rather than firm statements.

[Balrog]

Remember, Olorin is, IIRC, pretty much equal in power to Sauron; he was just forbidden from outright dick-waving matches with him.

Gandalf isn't as powerful as Sauron; he admitted as much himself to Pippin, I think, either early in RotK or late in TTT. He basically claimed to be the most dangerous being in Middle Earth short of Sauron.

Close, it was actually to Gimli towards the middle of TTT:

“Perhaps he also thought that you were Saruman,” said Gimli. “But you speak of him as if he was a friend. I thought Fangorn was dangerous.”
“Dangerous!” cried Gandalf. “And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous then anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.”
-The White Rider, p. 488

[Surlethe]

Gandalf isn't as powerful as Sauron; he admitted as much himself to Pippin, I think, either early in RotK or late in TTT. He basically claimed to be the most dangerous being in Middle Earth short of Sauron.

I had simply assumed he was referring to the limitations on his use of power, rather than the actual limits of his inherent power.

Remember, Sauron was the most powerful of the Maiar. By the time of the War of the Ring, he had frittered away a lot of that power in various schemes, but he started at the top of the heap, and he doesn't have the kind of restrictions that Gandalf does.

"Most powerful" notwithstanding, that's true; the big thing which used up his power was concentrating it into the Ring, instead of disseminating it as Morgoth did.

[Ted C]

No! Argh! I hate when people say this. Sauron was by no means the most powerful of all the Maiar. That particular title goes to Este the Pale, wife of Irmo. Sauron was among the most powerful Maia, of course, but he was not the most powerful. I think he was roughly in the top ten, possibly the top five.

My bad, I guess.

[Eframepilot]

IIRC Este and Vaire were accorded positions among the Valar by their position as spouses of Lorien and Mandos. I would rank the top 3 Maiar as follows:

1. Eonwe, herald of Manwe (and formerly Fionwe, son of Manwe and Varda, in an earlier version of the mythology)

2. Osse, lord of Belegaer and chief vassal of Ulmo

3. Sauron, originally chief(?) of Aule's Maiar

As Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule were supposed to be the three strongest of the Valar in that order, it would be logical for their chief followers in the Maiar to also be ranked in that order.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

IIRC Este and Vaire were accorded positions among the Valar by their position as spouses of Lorien and Mandos.

No, they were not. In fact, Tolkien specifically says that Este had Vala-level power, but was not counted among them due to her rejection of the duties and burdens associated with being one. She preferred to sleep during the day and frolic through the gardens of Lorien at night.

As Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule were supposed to be the three strongest of the Valar in that order, it would be logical for their chief followers in the Maiar to also be ranked in that order.

No, that does not logically follow at all.

[Eframepilot]

IIRC Este and Vaire were accorded positions among the Valar by their position as spouses of Lorien and Mandos.

No, they were not. In fact, Tolkien specifically says that Este had Vala-level power, but was not counted among them due to her rejection of the duties and burdens associated with being one. She preferred to sleep during the day and frolic through the gardens of Lorien at night.

Is that from The History of Middle-Earth? If it is, it would be more accurate than the Valaquenta in The Silmarillion, which names Este as one of the Valar. I haven't read The History of Middle-Earth source material in detail.

As Manwe, Ulmo, and Aule were supposed to be the three strongest of the Valar in that order, it would be logical for their chief followers in the Maiar to also be ranked in that order.

No, that does not logically follow at all.

[/quote]
OK, "logically" isn't the right word, but it's the most intuitive order, at least for those 3 particular Maiar.