Rowling says Harry and Hermione should have gotten married.

[Crazedwraith]

His dad wasn't on a Death List. His Dad worked in the ministry even when Voldemort was running things.

Yeah, Ron wasn't popular with the Death Eaters, but if he wanted to swap sides they'd probably let him because he's pureblood, just like Voldemort would have let Neville in even after he'd fought against Voldemort.

[Batman]

No way. His father is on a death list and everybody from the death dealer side hates him. He was going to get targeted anyway.
Doesn't make him any less courageous but it is not as if he just could have walked away.

Granted, but not being a Muggle he had at least the option of either a) disavowing his family or b) actively turning them in.
The reason he's on that list is because he chose to. (Or, by extension, his family did and he refused to turn on them). Harry and Hermione were on Voldemort's 'kill no matter what' list due to being Harry/a muggle. What I'm trying to get across (apparently not particularly competently) is that unlike the other two, Ron ended up on the 'terminate with extreme prejudice' list by choice by both a) remaining associated with Hermione and Harry and b) not disavowing his family.
Hermione and Harry were locked into either win or die pretty much from the word go. Ron could arguably have eeked out a reasonably comfortable living under Voldemort if he'd just sat the whole thing out.

[Thanas]

I doubt that this applies for anything past book 4. He was IMO far too deep by then to extradite himself. And it is not just him - his parents, siblings and their friends were all involved in the Voldemort thing.

[Simon_Jester]

Question:

If, as a practical matter, he's too committed to back out now, does it negate the point that he wasn't born an enemy of the villain, and did make a conscious choice to oppose him rather than being forced into it for survival?

[Ahriman238]

Well yeah, that's the biography, but I'm not quite sure how to translate that into personality differences that really address how the three interact.

Fair enough, was going through the incidents for reference. Ron and Harry are generally on the same page, except for when Ron takes counsel of his fears and insecurities, or Harry gets tunnel vision/a Messiah complex. There doesn't seem to be anything obvious recommending one over another as a spouse, unless you count Harry's having money and celebrity while Ron has a large and happy family, neither of which should be first for consideration.

[Tribble]

I doubt that this applies for anything past book 4. He was IMO far too deep by then to extradite himself. And it is not just him - his parents, siblings and their friends were all involved in the Voldemort thing.

When Voldemort takes over the Ministry in Book 7, Ron's family was not targeted by the Death Eaters, despite the fact that they are known members of the Order of the Phoenix. At most, they were being monitored. Percy and Ron's dad even kept their jobs with the Ministry. And it was expected that Ron would going to be going to school that year, which was why they faked him having a disease. As evil as Voldemort is he was completely devoted to his cause, and his orders were apparently quite clear: don't mess with pure bloods unless absolutely necessary.

This was empathised later when Ron briefly left. He left because he knew he could return to a more or less normal life if he chose to do so. Dumbledore even anticipated this temptation and that Ron would immediately regret it, which is why he gave Ron the Deluminator in the first place.

[CaptainChewbacca]

What about crime novels about Harry working as an Auror? No dark Lord. Just wizard criminals.

Although I'm sure someone would try to steal the Elder Wand from Harry since he was stupid enough to announce he had it in public during his final duel with Voldemort.

I believe crime-solving wizard has already been covered by Harry Dresden.

[The Romulan Republic]

Different writers will write about a subject in different ways. And Rowling seems to like writing mysteries. So I'd be interested to see her take on Harry as a magical police man.

[Thanas]

Question:

If, as a practical matter, he's too committed to back out now, does it negate the point that he wasn't born an enemy of the villain, and did make a conscious choice to oppose him rather than being forced into it for survival?

No, like I said.

*********************
As to the better partner discussion, which is kinda silly in itself, one thing that leaps to mind is that Hermione doesn't care about Harry's fame or fortune, which seem to mirror Harry's preferences on the topic. It is little to go on though.

[PKRudeBoy]

Ron always struck me as too mediocre. I get that he's supposed to be the Everyman Comic Relief, but he just strikes me as having too many flaws, and not enough time where he's actually shown as effective, to the point that he just kind of seems flat and not as well developed as other characters. 1997's other new Everyman Comic Relief, Xander Harris, shows more character growth, while the titles for Best Chosen One and Most Brilliant Witch are a much closer competition.

[LaCroix]

I never made a big secret about my dislike of Ron. Most of the time, he is the epitome of a bad friend. You ned to tip-toe around his moods while he insults people whenever he feels like it, is ignorant to others and unwilling to open his mind.

For me, he earned himself a place right next to Malfoy when he bullied Hermione in year one. He lost the little sympathy left with me after the shit he pulled on Harry over the tournament, not to mention how he treated Hermione in that year. He finally died to me when he ran away in a fit when he got fed up with their trip in DH.

[JLTucker]

For me, he earned himself a place right next to Malfoy when he bullied Hermione in year one.

This is one of the stupidest things I've heard regarding this series. He's equivalent to a wizard who would torture someone? Who would murder if he could get away with it? What he did was bad, sure, but worthy enough to be put next to Malfoy? His apologies don't matter? He's forever tainted? You're an idiot. Play a record.

He finally died to me when he ran away in a fit when he got fed up with their trip in DH.

Horcrux is to blame here. It fed on his insecurities. Horcrux 1101. Class is at noon. Don't be late. Bring a map with you in case you get lost.

[FaxModem1]

Also, I think it bears mentioning/repeating that Ron have a pretty good reason for wandering off. Their whole wandering about for six months was essentially pointless, and could have been better served at a safehouse researching the horcruxes or doing guerrilla attacks on Death Eaters.

[JLTucker]

Also, I think it bears mentioning/repeating that Ron have a pretty good reason for wandering off. Their whole wandering about for six months was essentially pointless, and could have been better served at a safehouse researching the horcruxes or doing guerrilla attacks on Death Eaters.

That would have been cool. Harry as the wizard equivalent of Che Guevara. Rowling is too safe for that, though. After all, she ruined her story by having Harry live.

[LaCroix]

For me, he earned himself a place right next to Malfoy when he bullied Hermione in year one.

This is one of the stupidest things I've heard regarding this series. He's equivalent to a wizard who would torture someone? Who would murder if he could get away with it? What he did was bad, sure, but worthy enough to be put next to Malfoy? His apologies don't matter? He's forever tainted? You're an idiot. Play a record.

Are you too far gone to realize that I did refer to Draco - you know, the one 'Malfoy' present for most of year one? Or did I hurt your precious feelings by mentioning that Ron and Draco behaved quite similar in being a stupid bully? And he can shove his apologies elsewhere when apologizes, and then pulls the same stupid shit again and again over the years. Ron's an arsehole, deal with it - and I do not tolerate idiots like him around me.

He finally died to me when he ran away in a fit when he got fed up with their trip in DH.

Horcrux is to blame here. It fed on his insecurities. Horcrux 1101. Class is at noon. Don't be late. Bring a map with you in case you get lost.

Well, doofus, not my fault that he wasn't able to deal with it the way the other two were able to, and spent most of his time ranting and making it even worse for the other two, and then reacting like he always did - A childish fit with lots of ranting and stupid accusations, before he stomps off in anger. Good riddance to scumbag Ron, I say - for most of the books he was nothing than a selfish prat making things difficult for everybody else. You are fine with being friends with a egocentric bully who only cares for his friends as long as he gets something out of it - your problem. I'm not. So take your stupid horse and ride it.

[Crazedwraith]

If you think Ron and Draco are in anyway on the same level. You're an idiot.

Where does he bully Hermine in book 1? He says an unkind thing to her, yes. Because he reacts badly to her bossing him about. He then also tries to fight off a cave troll to get her out trouble. And even if he didn't that's hardly a bullying campaign like Malfoy's.

And he's an 'egocentric bully who only cares for himself'? This is the same guy who sacrifices himself in book one in what might have been a lethal chess game in first year? Who then goes into a wood filled with giant examples of the things he most scared of in the world to stay with Harry and try and save the day, the next year? The guy who pushed Harry aside from the giant dog that they think is trying to kill him, gets dragged off by it, breaks his leg and then stands on said broken leg to get between Harry and said guy who wants to kill him?

What?!

[Flameblade]

If you think Ron and Draco are in anyway on the same level. You're an idiot.

Where does he bully Hermine in book 1? He says an unkind thing to her, yes. Because he reacts badly to her bossing him about. He then also tries to fight off a cave troll to get her out trouble. And even if he didn't that's hardly a bullying campaign like Malfoy's.

And he's an 'egocentric bully who only cares for himself'? This is the same guy who sacrifices himself in book one in what might have been a lethal chess game in first year? Who then goes into a wood filled with giant examples of the things he most scared of in the world to stay with Harry and try and save the day, the next year? The guy who pushed Harry aside from the giant dog that they think is trying to kill him, gets dragged off by it, breaks his leg and then stands on said broken leg to get between Harry and said guy who wants to kill him?

What?!

The answer to this disconnect is quite simple: Books versus Movies. Movie Ron is a complete asshole, while Movie Draco really only does some name calling and picking fights he loses.

[JLTucker]

The answer to this disconnect is quite simple: Books versus Movies. Movie Ron is a complete asshole, while Movie Draco really only does some name calling and picking fights he loses.

Anyone who jumps into this discussion while referencing the films as some form of argument has zero credibility. They aren't canon. They should be, since they're loads better than what Rowling wrote, but they aren't.

[Flameblade]

The answer to this disconnect is quite simple: Books versus Movies. Movie Ron is a complete asshole, while Movie Draco really only does some name calling and picking fights he loses.

Anyone who jumps into this discussion while referencing the films as some form of argument has zero credibility. They aren't canon. They should be, since they're loads better than what Rowling wrote, but they aren't.

Canon or not, they still tend to define what a lot of people think about the characters from the series. Which is part of the reason for there being a lot of arguments about the characters, in the fandom. (The other part being that it's fandom, arguing is what fandom does.)

[Tribble]

Also, I think it bears mentioning/repeating that Ron have a pretty good reason for wandering off. Their whole wandering about for six months was essentially pointless, and could have been better served at a safehouse researching the horcruxes or doing guerrilla attacks on Death Eaters.

That would have been cool. Harry as the wizard equivalent of Che Guevara. Rowling is too safe for that, though. After all, she ruined her story by having Harry live.

Well, she didn't make that decision last minute- she wrote the ending first and worked her way backwards. The last chapter was virtually unchanged from her rough notes, which is probably why it feels so awkward.

I thought that Harry's survival was well written. He was given the option of whether or not to live because he willingly chose to die to protect others (which according to Dumbledore, was what tipped the scales). And then he chose to live not only because it was the right thing to do, but because he had now fully conquered his fear of death. What was the worst Voldemort thing was going to do if he came back, kill him again? What possible thing could Voldemort hold over Harry now? You can see the change after he comes back, and I enjoyed watching him turn the tables around and put Voldemort in his place... though I prefer the movie version where they actually fight, rather than the book version where Voldemort takes one shot and snuffs it.

[LaCroix]

The answer to this disconnect is quite simple: Books versus Movies. Movie Ron is a complete asshole, while Movie Draco really only does some name calling and picking fights he loses.

Anyone who jumps into this discussion while referencing the films as some form of argument has zero credibility. They aren't canon. They should be, since they're loads better than what Rowling wrote, but they aren't.

Canon or not, they still tend to define what a lot of people think about the characters from the series. Which is part of the reason for there being a lot of arguments about the characters, in the fandom. (The other part being that it's fandom, arguing is what fandom does.)

I think you are on to something - My first contact with HP was when we went to the cinema, and because we missed the movie we went for, me&wife decided to watch that "Kid's movie". It took me a bit to read the books (actually, until Movie #2), because I wanted to read them in english, and they stocked those long after the german ones. From then on, I was on top of the books before I saw the movies.

So for bBook 1&2, I saw the movie before I read the book, and that probably influenced the way I see Ron...

Oh, and Crazedwraith - Ron followed a trail of tiny spiders into the woods - he had no idea what they'd encounter. If he knew it were acromantulas, he'd probably not have gone there (To be honest, Harry probably wouldn't have, either... )

the POA Ron is a half-half in my book, he's an arse for quite some time, but he has some better moments, too - still, when I read GOF, and he has his tantrum because he doesn't believe Harry, and basically admits that he's jealous of him getting all the fame, to me, he lost all his 'points' he had earned in POA.

[Crazedwraith]

Oh, and Crazedwraith - Ron followed a trail of tiny spiders into the woods - he had no idea what they'd encounter. If he knew it were acromantulas, he'd probably not have gone there (To be honest, Harry probably wouldn't have, either... )

Well, okay I exaggerated slightly but a) if you're following a trail of spiders its not unexpected to find a whole mess of spiders at the end even if you don't know they're huge b) spiders aside, he still went into the highly dangerous forbidden Forrest rumoured to be full of trolls and werewolves and definitely full of human hating Centaurs. c) He certainly wasn't doing it for his own good. Being pureblood and under no threat from the heir of slytherin. I was mainly contradicting the charges of being ego centric and only out for himself.

the POA Ron is a half-half in my book, he's an arse for quite some time, but he has some better moments, too - still, when I read GOF, and he has his tantrum because he doesn't believe Harry, and basically admits that he's jealous of him getting all the fame, to me, he lost all his 'points' he had earned in POA.

Yeah the sad thing is Ron gets less and less strong moments, and more comic relief as the books go on. Possibly the influence of the films on JKR's writing since they played up that aspect of him.

I do see why people end up disliking Ron. The guy's a flawed character. And he's flawed in a way that rubs people the wrong way. The insecurity and jealousy that leads him to do 'unloyal' things.

Compared to say Harry and Hermione's faults. Harry's flaw is being too damn heroic for his own good. (and impulsive to boot) And Hermione is an interfering busy-body who always thinks she's right. (her redeeming feature is that usually she is and even if she's not her worries are usually rational enough for the audience to understand)

But ultimately I think flawed characters are good. Ron just needs rather more obvious counter balances to his weak moments.

Incidentally, one of the few things I think the films did better than the book was Ron's departure in DH Part 1, where it emphasised his worries about his family and his feeling of isolation from the other two, and worries about Harry/Hermione shipping, more than just 'I'm hungry!'

[Tribble]

Incidentally, one of the few things I think the films did better than the book was Ron's departure in DH Part 1, where it emphasised his worries about his family and his feeling of isolation from the other two, and worries about Harry/Hermione shipping, more than just 'I'm hungry!'

Hey, have you ever faced almost certain death fighting the most evil wizard of all time on an empty stomach? When it comes to eating all bets are off bud, NOTHING gets in between me and my dinner, especially when it's home cooked.

[JLTucker]

Well, she didn't make that decision last minute- she wrote the ending first and worked her way backwards. The last chapter was virtually unchanged from her rough notes, which is probably why it feels so awkward.

I thought that Harry's survival was well written. He was given the option of whether or not to live because he willingly chose to die to protect others (which according to Dumbledore, was what tipped the scales). And then he chose to live not only because it was the right thing to do, but because he had now fully conquered his fear of death. What was the worst Voldemort thing was going to do if he came back, kill him again? What possible thing could Voldemort hold over Harry now? You can see the change after he comes back, and I enjoyed watching him turn the tables around and put Voldemort in his place... though I prefer the movie version where they actually fight, rather than the book version where Voldemort takes one shot and snuffs it.

I think the story would have been better had Harry actually died. His sacrifice would complete the theme that love conquers all. He loves all of these people at the school. An entire family died to save the Wizarding World from of the most evil wizards imaginable. It would have been amazing. A downer ending, sure, but amazing. Plus, Voldemort was vulnerable and there were dozens and dozens of witches and wizards who could have banded together and destroyed him. His support was gone.

[Thanas]

I think it would have been better had both Harry and Ron died. Both extremes of the good coin - the muggle one and the magic one dieing with the bridge between both worlds still being intact. (And you might say Hermione symbolizes the muggle world instead of Harry but we never experience it through her, only Harry is the one who actually has interactions with muggles).

But both your proposed ending and mine are unsuitable for children books IMO.

Plus, crazy fandom (and the HP fandom is the craziest there is IMO) might have resulted in Rowling being killed.