Alexander the Great Vs. the Wheel of Time.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

D. Turtle, the Aiel are, at best, a horde of half a million Zulus based on their described armament. They would, quite simply, be slaughtered enmasse no matter the circumstances, by Alexander's army.

In the bronze age, it was possible to storm walled cities without siege equipment, beyond ladders, or battering rams. You just had to be willing to accept ludicrous casualties to do it--but some tribes eager for the wealth succeeded fairly often, so I wouldn't dismiss that angle of reasonability.

Besides this, again, I point out that undisciplined forces are a contest of numbers. This is why the Aiel win--they are hardened desert warriors who, individually, fight as brilliantly as you claim, precisely because they fight against other individuals within the context of a mass formation.

An army, however, that also thought in the concept of individual warfare--Darius III's army--but went about it in an even more organized fashion, with signalling, and proper units, albeit, though that the average member was less skilled--once fielded 400,000 men against Alexander the Great. He had 35,000 men at that battle. His men fought as soldiers, not as warriors, in disciplined ranks. The result was that he slaughtered the enemy in endless numbers, routed them completely from the field, captured the family of the King, and suffered less than Three Hundred Casualties doing it.

At this battle, no less, it can be emphasized that King Darius had just achieved strategic surprise, in marching his army through the Amanic Gates, and deploying behind Alexander, cutting off his line of retreat. It didn't matter one bit. Even if the Aiel field more troops than Darius at Issus, and even if they choose the field of battle, the result is likely to be exactly the same. Alexander has 47,000 troops with him, and they are already mostly veterans of Issus.

I'll let the other points be dealt with by Hemlock, though I should note that I think it perfectly fair to allow Alexander the same starting point as everyone else.

[HemlockGrey]

Aiel have fought against the heavy cavalry and heavy infantry of the Borderlanders. I think it is in Book 5 when Rand is still in Rhuidean or following the Shaido Aiel. He discusses with Lan how to defeat Aiel. The only way to even have a chance of defeating them was by trying a double flanking maneuver and hope that your main force can block them long enough before there are any weaknesses in your lines and the flanking maneuver can work

1) Passage, please

2) There are several problem's with Lan's analysis. He's talking about heavy-cavalry armies, the Borderlanders, and he's talking about fighting on the defensive. There is no reason why a massed charge of thousands of armored lancer's shouldn't inflict terrible damage on the Aiel.

Further, assuming Alexander is on the defensive, entrenched heavy infantry are very difficult to dislodge, and the Aiel lack any sort of armor and compared to Alexander's hoplites, they have pitiful reach. Alexander himself has performed many difficult flanking manuevers, so holding the Aiel back and then flanking their main force is not something new to him.

They will only intervene once Alexander tries to invade the Aiel Waste. Should he try that, he will be slaughtered. The aiel will unite against any foreign invaders - and bring massive numbers to bear - pretty much every person in the Aiel Waste will fight.

The Aiel Waste is desert, sand, and rocks, with no arable land, no wealth, nothing. Why would Alexander possibly invade?

Aiel can climb up the walls of the Stone of Tear - a fortress made with the One Power. They will easily find a way to climb over the walls. They were only held off at Airhien for as long as they were, because the defenders set fire to the buildings outside the wall.

And what does this have to do with the fact that Alexander should be able to sack a city with far more ease than the Aiel can, given that he actually has equipment for the job?

Aiel or not, any human who scales a massive wall against heavy enemy fire and then has to fight a battle at the top of the wall is going to be at a severe disadvantage. Alexander is not so limited in his options.

Aiel have mobility superior to cavalry/horse-equipped armies. THEY can choose the field of battle. Also - they Aiel don't have to necessarily rely on mass attacks or army vs army battles - using their quite exceptional stealth abilities they can raid very effectively.

But HOW will they force Alexander into a confrontation? They will have to trap him against a river or the coast or a mountain, and Alexander is far too smart to do such a thing. They can't just sit down in the middle of a field and force Alexander to attack them, because even if they choose the field of battle he doesn't have to engage.

And this assumes they cross over the mountains in the first place, which they won't.

Alexander's army will have to MOVE to get to other places he wants to conquer. Large parts of the WoT mainland are wooded - do you seriously think he can avoid wooded terrain altogether?

Yes. A large part of WoT mainland is also grassland, and there are many, many rivers, and the Legion can't be in every single forest everywhere, and Alexander has soundly defeated guerrillas in several other campaigns.

This is a moot point, as the revised scenario, IIRC, is pre-Legion.

These 1200 years of experience include the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing and others. Artur Hawkwing is acknowledged in all of WoT as the best general ever to appear since the Breaking and before the happenings in the WoT series. He accomplished everything that Alexander is supposed to try in this scenario - during a time where the countries were a lot stronger than they are at the beginning of the series.
Let's see (not all in one book):
Mat took command of a relatively small group of soldiers sduring the siege of Cairhien - and defeated or held off quite a lot of Aiel attacks (including the one including Culadin).
Mat formed the strategy to defeat the Aiel at the siege of Cairhien.
Mat formed the strategy that conquered Illian.
Mat defeated any and all attacks made by the White Lions of Andor.

Please provide examples of this strategy?

By asking the question: Can alexander invade WoT, and later changing it to can Alexaner invade the WoT at its weakest point?
By changing this you conceeded that he has no chance of invading the WoT as it exists ATM. After all - pretty much the entire series is about the coming of the Last Battle and the need of the world to prepare for it - as ist is not ready.

The only reason he can't invade later on in the novels is because later on there is a magical army that could very possibly destroy the world if turned loose. The scenario is about pitting Alexander's military against the militaries of WoT, not about pitting ordinary men against demigods.

[HemlockGrey]

And I would like to mention that having the political support of Rand does not put food on the Band's table. They will still need a supply line, and supply lines can be cut off; therefor, they will need to be part of a major campaign against already-conquered territory, and they still run the risk of having their LoS cut off. If they raid and forage in Alexander's conquered territory, they will do nothing to endear themselves to the inhabitants of that land, and will more likely incite the population against them and drive more people into support Alexander.

[Oddity]

No, there is absolutely no evidence for any sort of 'advanced military science'. The logistical systems of every other nation in Randland can barely support armies numbering in the 10K's, so how could the Aiel, a desert civilization, have developed a logistical system capable of supplying hundreds of thousands of soldiers in a completely alien landscape?

Obviously, they can't. However, the Aiel do take 1/5 of everything from the lands they pass through, therefor, this must be their main source of forage and military supplies. Cut them off from the plunder, cut them off from supplies.

Betraying your ignorance I see. An advancing army of 20,000 men and even more horses would strip an area ten or more miles wide of all food and fodder, making it into a wasteland. It would be impossible to sustain an army of two or three hundred thousand by plunder. A fifth from Cairhien and the Stone of Tear is not enough.

And I love how you ignore the 200k borderland army who marched all the way down to Andor. If you look at a map of the WoT world you'll see that the vast majority of the distance is uninhabited wilderness.

My point still stands.

The Aiel have never defeated a massed charge of armored lancers; the only instances of defeating heavy cavalry that I can recall are them defeating a small troop of horsemen armed with swords that engaged the Aiel in many one-on-one battles.

What the hell else is heavy cavalry used for than massed charges? If massed cavalry charges are effective against Aiel, they would have lost the Aiel War - particularly since the Grand Alliance had twice as many soldiers as them.

Further, given that the Aiel nearly sacked a walled city without siege equipment, Alexander, who does have access to siege equipment, will have a much, much easier time of it, ne?

That hinges upon your 'they are idiots' argument that you have yet to prove.

The Aiel also never committed more than 150K warriors to a campaign until Rand fulfilled their prophecy. Yadda, yadda.

You are backtracking, I see. Remember that our discussion began under the old scenario. Under the new scenario Alexander will have an easier time, but if he ever tries to dig out the Aiel his army will be torn to rags.

I read the first nine books, and nowhere do I recall hearing any mention of borderlanders engaging Aiel.

[Sigh.] Masema didn't like Rand because he thought he was an Aiel. Masema didn't like Aiel because he had been stationed on Shienar's east border. On the other side of the east border we have... the Aiel... Waste...

How will they force him into a battle? In ancient and medieval warfare it was remarkably difficult to force an enemy to battle against his will. They will have to trap him against a river or attempt to lay siege to something he has already conquered, and Alexander is far too smart to fall for the former.

I was thinking of the latter. Alexander won't just sit still and twiddle his thumbs if the Aiel besiege one of his cities.

Your point about the Legion was that he couldn't beat them in forested terrain. We'll ignore the fact that you ignored Marina's examples of events in which Alexander did prevail, despite extreme terrain obstacles, and cut to the point, which is that the Legion has no way of forcing Alexander into a confrontation in such terrain. They can't siege a city because they're only armed with crossbows and shortswords, so they'll have to rely on a raiding strategy, and they can't stay in thickly forested terrain forever.

I don't have time to go through everyone’s posts.
I don't have time to read up on Alexander's exploits and Macedonian tactics.

You are refuting a point I never made. I never said they could besiege a city or anything like that.

And the revised scenario takes place pre-Legion anyway, so Alexander is spared the trouble of butchering them.

Backtracking, backtracking... I made that post under the old scenario.

SNIP 'they suck'-argument.
I'm sure Marina will shred your disparagment of Alexander's skills, but for the moment, will you please provide this scintillating example of Mat's military genius, since I really have no desire to look through an 800 page book trying to find it?

Wonderful. Ask the opposition for evidence without bothering to supply any for your own claims.

Your original point was that Mat never had 'displayed any sort of grasp of logistical strategy' - which is nonsense. The Band had both supply wagons, reserve horses and ships carrying more supplies using River Erinin. And more, they had been given strict orders not to plunder.

As for Mat's abilities you should read the beginning of chapter 42, book five - I am not typing all that here!

Conceded; I do now remember reading something like this.

[Regard of Hemlock up one notch.]

However, the Band still lacks light cavalry, plus it lacks any sort of political support. It does not have any homebase to fall back on and it's only method of resupply will be through a raiding strategy. Alexander has dealt rather handily with guerrilas before, in southern Afganistan, and as the Band is hardly a guerrila force, it can simply be starved out.

The Band's cavalry is actually light, and the rest of this quote is crap. It has political support (it's composed of men from Tear and Cairhien, which is controlled by... who?), it has a homebase to fall back on, and they do. Not. Plunder.

What? The reason heavy cavalry-only armies are going to fail is because light infantry and light cavalry can slice them up at ease. HTF is a line of pikemen going to stop that?

Static infantry is supposed to stop cavalry. I'm beginning to get tired of this wank-off feast where Alexander destroys all opposition.

Right, because Alexander won't enlist any local blacksmiths along the way.

Assuming, of course, that the borderlands aren’t the first nations he attack, and that he figure out quickly why their weapons and armor are better. And that his cavalry can begin to use plate-mail without any problems.

The Trolloc Wars involved battles where as many as three hundred thousand men engaged even larger numbers of Trollocs and Myrddraal. Yet the war lasted for nearly three hundred years, and even those few nations who survived after a fashion collapsed within fifty years.

So yes, they prevailed... after having suffered near-genocidal casualties.

And yet Hawkwing managed to crush a new Trolloc invasion with relative ease.

Keyword: Relative. The battle lasted for days. In any case, the new invasion didn't have anywhere near the numbers of the Trolloc wars, and let's not mention that the Trollocs also invaded the Aiel Waste and Shara simultaneously.

And why would the Aes Sedai be convinced he's a male channeler? He doesn't have any channeler-like abilities, and once it becomes apparent that he has eternal youth and whatnot, the Aes Sedai will be dead, or at his feet, or both.

Under the old scenario, where our discussion started, Alexander had the 'full powers of a Greek Demi-God' to make sure a few channelers didn't slaughter his army. Hence they'd think he's a male channeler.

Under the new scenario he won't. However, once he begins conquering nation after nation (yes, he can conquer almost any of the southern nations) I can see the Aes Seda doing one of two things:

1) Forge an alliance against him, like the Grand Coalition of the Aiel War. This shouldn't be to hard since few rulers are without an Aes Sedai advisor.

2) Let him conquer the south, then begin their usual manipulating and scheming to bring him under their control - much like they tried to do with Hawkwing. With the south united under one rule, the world would be a lot more stable.


I'm tired this crap. The only way Alexander can defeat the combined might of the WoT world (being outnumbered by insane margins, using inferior technology and ancient tactics), would be for them all to be idiots. The problem is that they have the logistical know-how to keep huge armies supplied, which flies straight in the face of that argument. I'll give you one more chance to explain why they are idiots despite this, then I'll just wrap it up and let you declare victory as much as you please.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Betraying your ignorance I see. An advancing army of 20,000 men and even more horses would strip an area ten or more miles wide of all food and fodder, making it into a wasteland. It would be impossible to sustain an army of two or three hundred thousand by plunder. A fifth from Cairhien and the Stone of Tear is not enough.

And I love how you ignore the 200k borderland army who marched all the way down to Andor. If you look at a map of the WoT world you'll see that the vast majority of the distance is uninhabited wilderness.

My point still stands.

It's no more advanced than the Mongols, who were just a barbarian tribe, and happened to be able to field huge hordes out of essentially empty terrain. It does not imply any of actual scientific method behind the process, and these groups are far, far behind the Mongols tactically and strategically (to a laughable level--let's not even go there).

What the hell else is heavy cavalry used for than massed charges? If massed cavalry charges are effective against Aiel, they would have lost the Aiel War - particularly since the Grand Alliance had twice as many soldiers as them.

Well, obviously the disorganization in the WoT world leads to the use of heavy cavalry as mounted warriors, no different than the ground fighters, who, again, fight a series of individual duels--a bit like the Dark Ages Greek noblemen, just on a larger scale.

You are backtracking, I see. Remember that our discussion began under the old scenario. Under the new scenario Alexander will have an easier time, but if he ever tries to dig out the Aiel his army will be torn to rags.

Hardly. They'll be no more trouble than the Bactrians. You have constantly denied the reality of the macedonian system against disorganized mobs, now, and refuse to accept explanations for the preformance of the Aiel which fit into the known reality of how such barbarians can achieve success, and how they cannot. The Aiel simply cannot do what you claim they can against an organized foe; it is impossible.

I was thinking of the latter. Alexander won't just sit still and twiddle his thumbs if the Aiel besiege one of his cities.

Backtracking, backtracking... I made that post under the old scenario.

The scenario hasn't changed, just was clarified. The legion wouldn't last--again, it's a matter of how fast the ground their crossbows can range on can be covered by the Phalangites, against the casualties taken (if I'm even keeping all these units straight), and then they fold, because nobody with just a crossbow survives contact with massed pike.

Your original point was that Mat never had 'displayed any sort of grasp of logistical strategy' - which is nonsense. The Band had both supply wagons, reserve horses and ships carrying more supplies using River Erinin. And more, they had been given strict orders not to plunder.

So he can organize about as well as any oriental monarch. Alright...

The Band's cavalry is actually light, and the rest of this quote is crap. It has political support (it's composed of men from Tear and Cairhien, which is controlled by... who?), it has a homebase to fall back on, and they do. Not. Plunder.

Any force which is unable to live off the land in times of duress is vulnerable to a strategy of attack against supply lines.

Static infantry is supposed to stop cavalry. I'm beginning to get tired of this wank-off feast where Alexander destroys all opposition.

The infantry must be disciplined, however, and we continue not to have any proof from you of regular drill and training of the WoT armies to fight in close order formations. Alexander historically destroyed all his opposition, and his enemies here are the same or less organized than those he fought historically. We're just demolishing your fantasy wank-fest and you're upset that it doesn't stack up to the real world.

Keyword: Relative. The battle lasted for days.

Which was a very common occurance in the ancient and medieval worlds, actually. Yarmuk lasted for eight.

Under the old scenario, where our discussion started, Alexander had the 'full powers of a Greek Demi-God' to make sure a few channelers didn't slaughter his army. Hence they'd think he's a male channeler.

There is no old scenario. There is just an expansion of the scenario.

I'm tired this crap. The only way Alexander can defeat the combined might of the WoT world (being outnumbered by insane margins, using inferior technology and ancient tactics), would be for them all to be idiots.

Tactics are never ancient, but are rather suited to the situation. Alexander's tactics merely exploit the warrior mentality of the WoT world, just as they exploited the levee-warriors of the despotisms of the east; or the similar warrior mentality of the various barbarian tribes he exterminated or subdued in Central Asia. Quite simply, they will "come on the in same old way" and Alexander will "see them off in the same old way," because they don't know how to do anything else, and Alexander knows exactly what to do to defeat them.

The problem is that they have the logistical know-how to keep huge armies supplied, which flies straight in the face of that argument. I'll give you one more chance to explain why they are idiots despite this, then I'll just wrap it up and let you declare victory as much as you please.

They are not idiots. They may, in fact, be geniuses. It won't matter! That's what I'm trying to emphasize, and you're ignoring. They're just wedded, culturally, to a tactical system of warrior single combat, which leads to disorganized mobs fighting disorganized mobs. Alexander's troops, as a disciplined, organized body, will easily crush such a force--regardless of the numbers involved.

Besides, if Darius III could supply 400,000 troops for his rush through the Amanic Gates, I don't really know what's so laudable about the supply of the armies in WoT.

[Stormbringer]

The Aiel simply cannot do what you claim they can against an organized foe; it is impossible.

Of course not. But for the purposes of this debate we simply have to accept the books when they say they do indeed do it.

I'll bne happy to acknowledge that the Aiel could not do so in the real world, but this isn't the real world.

[HemlockGrey]

Betraying your ignorance I see. An advancing army of 20,000 men and even more horses would strip an area ten or more miles wide of all food and fodder, making it into a wasteland. It would be impossible to sustain an army of two or three hundred thousand by plunder. A fifth from Cairhien and the Stone of Tear is not enough.

That's the only way the Aiel could have supplied themselves on their conquests. Once Rand consolidated his power, his almost certainly diverted much of the local produce to feed the Aiel.

But face it; the Aiel come from a desert waste where there is no arable land and no real agriculture. They have zero experience with supply trains or anything of the sort because in their entire culture, their entire history of military warfare, there was never any need for such a thing. Therefor, they must be entirely reliant on plunder, unless commanded by a non-Aiel who knows the countryside.

As the scenario is pre-Rand, any Aiel invasion(if any) would be forced to rely upon plunder.

And I love how you ignore the 200k borderland army who marched all the way down to Andor. If you look at a map of the WoT world you'll see that the vast majority of the distance is uninhabited wilderness.

200,000 men from every single nation in the Borderlands. Further, I believe there were many references to veritably stripping the Borderlands of troops, so the largest military force all those countries can field and supply equals 200,000. There's 4 Borderland nations, so that's about 50K troops per nation.

Even assuming that each and every man participates in combat, we come up with the most militarized nations in all of Randland only being able to field 50,000 man armies, and, in order to do that, they have to leave their borders practically undefended. Alexander will smash 50,000 man armies like rotten grapefruits.

What the hell else is heavy cavalry used for than massed charges? If massed cavalry charges are effective against Aiel, they would have lost the Aiel War - particularly since the Grand Alliance had twice as many soldiers as them.

The Grand Alliance was also composed largely of southern states, who field large infantry armies.

I'm not really sure why the Grand Alliance didn't order massed cavalry charges; 3 ft spears, not even drawn up in tight, disciplined, mutually supporting ranks, cannot defend against armored lancers, period. Such a thing has never happened. It is quite possible that Aiel mobility negated the ability to do such a thing, or it is quite possible that the commanders simply went the way of the Andorian prince and attacked as many individuals.

That hinges upon your 'they are idiots' argument that you have yet to prove.

My faith in mankind is rapidly slipping.

The Aiel are able to nearly sack a walled city without the aid of any sort of siege equipment whatsoever. Therefor, it follows that Alexander, who has access to said equipment, should be able to do it with greater ease.

What do you not understand about this?

You are backtracking, I see. Remember that our discussion began under the old scenario. Under the new scenario Alexander will have an easier time, but if he ever tries to dig out the Aiel his army will be torn to rags.

If you call 'reminding you of the stipulations of the scenario so you don't make a complete and utter ass of yourself' backtracking, then, yes, I am backtracking.

Under the new scenario, the Aiel are a non-factor. Under the new scenario, they will still be defeated.

[Sigh.] Masema didn't like Rand because he thought he was an Aiel. Masema didn't like Aiel because he had been stationed on Shienar's east border. On the other side of the east border we have... the Aiel... Waste...

A history of small, isolated skirmishes does not equal massive engagements or long wars.

I was thinking of the latter. Alexander won't just sit still and twiddle his thumbs if the Aiel besiege one of his cities.

No, but he will be able to force them to attack areas he has already conquered, he will force them to invade areas already not friendly to them, and he will be able to trap them up against city walls, or cut off their supply lines, if they are being commanded by a non-Aiel.

The last time the Aiel besieged a city, they were trying to destroy it and slaughter it's inhabitants. What makes you think the wetlanders, who have a long history of enmity against the Aiel, will welcome them as their saviors, particularly since Alexander is a benevolent ruler?

I don't have time to go through everyone?s posts.
I don't have time to read up on Alexander's exploits and Macedonian tactics.

You are refuting a point I never made. I never said they could besiege a city or anything like that.

A) It is commonly expected that, when engaging in a debate, you will take the time to thoroughly peruse the contents of said debate

B) You didn't have to look them up. Marina listen them for you

C) You said the Legion could engage Alexander in a forest. I said that they could only force him to battle by besieging one of his cities, and they are completely unable to do such a thing.

Wonderful. Ask the opposition for evidence without bothering to supply any for your own claims.

Your original point was that Mat never had 'displayed any sort of grasp of logistical strategy' - which is nonsense. The Band had both supply wagons, reserve horses and ships carrying more supplies using River Erinin. And more, they had been given strict orders not to plunder.

As for Mat's abilities you should read the beginning of chapter 42, book five - I am not typing all that here!

What claims are you referring to?

Further, you don't seem to grasp what logistical strategy is composed of. It is more than ensuring that your army is properly supplied. It also involves cutting off your enemy's supply, ensuring that you remain supplied, and defending your own supply lines.

I will look at the passage you provided, as soon as I can find my copy of Book Five.

The Band's cavalry is actually light, and the rest of this quote is crap. It has political support (it's composed of men from Tear and Cairhien, which is controlled by... who?), it has a homebase to fall back on, and they do. Not. Plunder.

Light cavalry? Are they all horse archers? I'm fairly certain they're lancers and the like.

Static infantry is supposed to stop cavalry. I'm beginning to get tired of this wank-off feast where Alexander destroys all opposition.

It would be nice if you actually knew what you were talking about for once. Static infantry is designed to stop heavy cavalry- lancers, swordsmen, that sort of thing. It is completely inadequate against light cavalry. I refer you to the wars between the Romans and the Parthians; the Parthian light cavalry was able to obliterate the Roman heavy infantry.

Assuming, of course, that the borderlands aren?t the first nations he attack, and that he figure out quickly why their weapons and armor are better. And that his cavalry can begin to use plate-mail without any problems.

WTF? The Borderlands are in the far north. Why would he attack them first?

And I seriously think implying that he can't recognize the value of iron is absurd. He's not an idiot.

Keyword: Relative. The battle lasted for days. In any case, the new invasion didn't have anywhere near the numbers of the Trolloc wars, and let's not mention that the Trollocs also invaded the Aiel Waste and Shara simultaneously.

And if they invade again, they'll be smashed, as the Trollocs are absurdly undisciplined rabble. Alexander, with huge manpower pools to draw on, would utterly shatter an invasion.

[HemlockGrey]

Damn! I started this post 2 hours ago, then took a break to watch 'Alien', then came back and finished it. I didn't notice Marina's post.

[Kerneth]

I think you're ignoring a few things, Duchess.

Most of the fighting you see is from the point of view of the "warriors" of the WoT, (henceforth referred to as "Randland" since we're only talking about the "wetlands" portion of the main continent) not the real soldiers. Perrin isn't a soldier, he's a guy who happens to be good with an axe and have big muscles. Matrim's a soldier, and the only time we see him commanding battles--in Cairhein vs the Aiel--he does use infantry tactics. He deploys pike to hold off a more mobile enemy, the Aiel, and then uses cavalry charges to break them.

The nobility of Randland may be inclined towards thinking that all warfare is a matter of cavalry fighting as individual soldiers, but the real officers--the ones who earned their rank by being good at their jobs, not just by being nobly born--realize the usefulness of infantry.

You seem to be assuming that all the various generals of Randland are like Weiramon from Tear and unable to think of any tactic beyond the basic cavalry charge. Even assuming that none of the "great Captains" who are famed across the land for their ability to win battles has any interest in the use of infantry at the beginning of the war, how can you say that after seeing Alexander's troops in action, none of those generals will adapt tactics to fight him more effectively?

Crossbows have been around for decades in Randland, and most armies field pikemen, even the ones that look down on infantry in comparison with cavalry. And those pikemen are disciplined, professional soldiers; once again, Mat successfully used Cairheinen pikemen to hold off a group of Aiel that outnumbered the pikemen by a considerable amount. That wouldn't be possible if the pikemen were an undisciplined mob armed with long pointy objects. And while Mat's supposed to be a great general, he's far from the only skilled commander; quit thinking that all the Wheel of Time generals are like that idiot Wieramon and start worrying about the ones with a hard-earned reputation for actually winning battles, not the generals who are only generals because they're high-ranking noblemen. Pikemen from Randland are going to have heavier armor--steel breastplates, gauntlets, and helms--and a superior weapon, a longer steel-tipped pike gripped in both hands and braced on the ground to receive a charge.

Additionally, Alexander's infantry are used to fighting what the Wheel of Time world would consider light cavalry, not massive warhorses wearing full armor being ridden by men with stirrups and heavy steel plate armor themselves. Cavalry "lances" in Alexander's day were basically stabbing spears that got most of their force from the cavalryman's arm and shoulder; the horsemen had to cling to their mounts with their legs, and couldn't put anywhere near as much of the horse's momentum behind a strike. Compare that to a long, heavy lance properly braced at the end of a true heavy cavalry charge. And even after the initial charge, the cavalrymen found themselves trying to hang onto their horses using their legs while trading blows with an infantryman who, while lacking the height advantage of a horse, was able to brace his feet and shield and not have to worry about falling off a horse. A man with stirrups, on the other hand, can use a lot more force behind his blows and brace himself in much the same way as he would on foot, because he isn't likely to slip and tumble off his horse.

You seem to be trying to build a scenario like this: Alexander invades a nation. That nation sends out all of its troops to face Alexander's, and does so behind a general who is supremely convinced that no infantry can possibly stand against cavalry, and thus assumes that Alexander's troops will be shattered by his own cavalrymen. Instead, those cavalrymen hit the phalanx, and are slaughtered en masse by bronze-tipped spears, with the survivors of the route chased down by Alexander's infantry to complete his victory.

The problem here is, that it effectively ignores details like the fact that while the phalanx's shield wall and spears were more than sufficient to fend off opponents from their time period, those spears simply don't have the reach to match true pikes; and once the phalanx is stalled against a wall of pikes, then they're going to be in trouble, because along with pikemen an army of the time period we're talking about would field halberdiers, who carried weapons with the same reach as--or superior reach to--the phalanx's spears and the advantage of being steel and massively heavy enough to batter down the shields of the phalanx. You're also assuming that because the phalanx could stop a charge by Bronze-age light cavalry, they could stop the same charge by heavy cavalry equipped with stirrups.

If we grant every single one of your assumptions, namely, that every general in Randland is a complete idiot, that none of Randland's troops are capable of discipline in combat, and that bronze weapons and armor can match steel effectively, then yes, Alexander the Great can possibly win this battle. Unfortunately, if we don't grant your assumptions and point out that Alexander's opponents are capable of tactical and strategic thought, that the various nations do field disciplined, coordinated infantry units that are capable of holding their own against cavalry of their same time period, and finally that Randland's troops have an enormous advantage in terms of weapons, armor, horses, and superior fortifications to anything the Greeks were used to dealing with, then Alexander gets crushed like a bug.

[HemlockGrey]

Sorry, but every major general in the southern states is an idiot; there are no examples of Mat-like officers in the early books. Further, nations like Altara, Ghealdan, and Murandy(something like that) can barely hold themselves together, let alone field large armies, and Cairhein, Tear, Illian, and Andor are always at war.

Almost every WoT is a professional core surrounded by levied troops; Altara, Ghealdan, and Murandy all lack such cores.

Also, I don't recall any pike forces until Mat takes over, and the technology gap is not very large; Alexander will simply have to enlist the local blacksmiths, and he gets iron weapons.

[Kerneth]

It mentions in the Fires of Heaven that the Cairheinen pikemen Mat ends up commanding are all experienced veterans from the fighting in the civil war, and it is noted that their previous commander had experience battling opponents other than his fellow Cairheinen, including the Andorans and others. The Defenders of the Stone are described as wearing steel breastplates, helms, gauntlets, and using unidentified polearms. That's infantry. Ebou Dari guards are noted to be carrying halberds as well as swords in Winter's Heart, and halberds are also an infantry weapon.

Rodel Ituralde, of Arad Doman, is considered to be one of the "Great Captains" along with Gareth Bryne, Agelmar Jagad, Davrim Bashere (Faile's father), and Pedron Niall.

Also, there are officers who may not be one of the "Great Captains" but are still competent enough to use their troops effectively; everyone isn't either a "Great Captain" or a total moron.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Two comments:

1. Alexander does have iron weaponry. Please repeat this several times until it is memorized, as it has already been mentioned several times in this thread. No offense, but the Assyrians had iron weaponry. It's just that armour was still, for the most part, bronze, in Alexander's time, because there was not much ironworking going on. Spear-tips and swords, etc, however, will be made out of iron, and in some cases sections of armour might be iron, (usually connecting pieces) with the bulk bronze.

2. Stormbringer, my contention is that something which is impossible should be rationalized to fit into the real world before we adopt an impossible explanation. Therefore, quite simply, Aiel victories are more easily explained by a lack of organization on the part of their foes, or if their foes have been clearly demonstrated to be organized, so that this explaination is not possible, than by tactical error (such as explains the British defeat by the Zulus at Isandhlwana--poorly devised formations).

Through recorded history, disciplined forces have been regularly able to rout undisciplined forces with kill ratios between five to one and a hundred to one in their favour, oftentimes outnumbered between five or twenty times or more; ranging from the Spartans at Thermopylae, the Romans in Gaul, Richard at Jaffa, Cortez against the Mexica, Stempel in the Citadel of Samarkand, or even the Siege of the Peking Legations.

[D.Turtle]

Wrote this yesterday, but the forum didn't work for me, so I'll post it now:

The scenario is about pitting Alexander's military against the militaries of WoT, not about pitting ordinary men against demigods.

You (or the threads creator) are taking large parts of the WoTs military away - this would be akin to letting a swordfighter fight against a Jedi, but take away the lightsabre and replace it with a sword and taking away his TK abilities and precog.

Now: The first scenario was vs current WoT.
It was pointed out, that the macedonians would be massacred by the Seanchan, Ashaman, or any other forces using magic-users.

After this, the scenario was revised. The point of time in the timeline was chosen to be the beginning of the series.

Around 1.5 years after the start of the series (maybe even less, not exactly sure) the Seanchan start returning.

Now, tell me: Do you think that Alexander can muster large enough forces to deal with the Seanchan in 1.5 years?

I do not think so. The only forces capable of stopping and defeating the Seanchan in WoT are Rand's forces (maybe the Aes Sedai).

Since you realized that Alexander has no way of creating a similar force or one that could face such a force - you revised the scenario after all because of that - you should simply admit defeat and concede that At the very latest Alexander will be defeated or forced into submission by the Seanchan Return.

You have to realize that Ashaman, Damane, Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, the Forsaken, etc. are PART of the militaries in WoT. You can not simply take them (all) away because your side (Alexander the Great) has no chance against them.

In SW vs ST you can not simply take away all capital ships of the SW side simply because they are capable of blasting any and all ships of ST away. That would be an admission of defeat.

Admit your defeat: Alexander has no way of invading the totality of WoT - at the very latest when the Seanchan return he will be destroyed or he will have to submit himself to superior forces.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

You (or the threads creator) are taking large parts of the WoTs military away - this would be akin to letting a swordfighter fight against a Jedi, but take away the lightsabre and replace it with a sword and taking away his TK abilities and precog.

No. This is a false pretense. The revision in the scenario--it is by no means a new one, as it still pits Alexander against the whole WoT world, it merely clarifies the conditions--was meant to give Alexander the same starting point as everyone else. Artificially denying Alexander that is unfair, precisely because the other armies have had years to gather, while Alexander is being thrust in with just his main force. Beginning, at the beginning, we are simply adding a new contender, and one I might add, which you yourself have repeatedly stated is nothing in comparison to the final numerical strengths of the WoT states.

Now, tell me: Do you think that Alexander can muster large enough forces to deal with the Seanchan in 1.5 years?

I think that would depend on his ability to win people over to his side with political manoeuvring, to secure critical regions with conquest, and, in particular, to recruit a sufficient quantity of users of the power, which can negate those of the Seanchan.

I do not think so. The only forces capable of stopping and defeating the Seanchan in WoT are Rand's forces (maybe the Aes Sedai).

Numerically there is no reason why Alexander cannot defeat the Seanchan with a year and a half preparation. The problem is in magic, and that is where his skills at reconciling with conquered problems must come into play.

Since you realized that Alexander has no way of creating a similar force or one that could face such a force - you revised the scenario after all because of that - you should simply admit defeat and concede that At the very latest Alexander will be defeated or forced into submission by the Seanchan Return.

I do not concede that, because it is not true. Alexander's 47,000 men alone could quite possibly defeat the Seanchan Return (excepting what Sun-Tzu would call "extraordinary forces," I think), and those might be dealt with by auxilia provided by canny political arrangement.

You have to realize that Ashaman, Damane, Wise Ones, Aes Sedai, the Forsaken, etc. are PART of the militaries in WoT. You can not simply take them (all) away because your side (Alexander the Great) has no chance against them.

False pretense. The scenario is the WoT Vs. Alexander the Great, and not at a specific point in time. It was clarified to the beginning so that Alexander would start at the same point, and have the same amount of time to prepare for the same events, as everyone else. You are trying to stack the dice against him, nothing more, because otherwise, fifty thousand men would quote possibly conquer an entire world.

Admit your defeat: Alexander has no way of invading the totality of WoT - at the very latest when the Seanchan return he will be destroyed or he will have to submit himself to superior forces.

I cannot admit defeat when the facts indicate the opposite. Currently the situation really rests on Alexander's ability in the strategic realm, to obtain counters to the extraordinary units of his enemies--and the ability of him to do this is perhaps best answered by someone more knowledge to the field of combat. Should he be able to counter the ability of the Seanchan in magic, even merely to the point of providing his troops a margin of protection, then he should be fully capable of contesting for "the rulership of the world" with them.

[D.Turtle]

@ The Duchess of Zeon: It is very simple: You are saying that Alexander could invade WoT (or you want do debate if he could).

To do this he has to defeat the Seanchan miliatry forces. Forces which use damane as an integrated arm of their military.

He has no way of defeating such a (damane-equipped) force. Hemlock-Grey admitted this by stating:

The only reason he can't invade later on in the novels is because later on there is a magical army that could very possibly destroy the world if turned loose. The scenario is about pitting Alexander's military against the militaries of WoT, not about pitting ordinary men against demigods.

The thing is: The Seanchan have a magical army as part of their military. A military that will start invading about 1.5 years after Alexander arrives. If he cant defeat those forces (inclunding magic-users as a standard military arm of their forces) then he will not be able to secure the entirety of WoT (probably not even Randland).

He has the same conditions as everybody else in Randland. There are no large forces of magic-users in exstance in Randland at this time (except Aes Sedai who cant use the OP as a weapon unless in danger). No army in Randland had years to gather. There is simply a new contender.

A contender that would be crushed like every other contender by the Seanchan. Rand (with his 'demi-god army' of magic users) is the only force that has been able to stop him so far. (Aes Sedai will probably fight them soon, and Mat will probably discover gun-powder soon).

In the entirety of Randland there are NO standard forces capable of defeating the Seanchan.

The Seanchan will invade, regardless if Alexander is there or not, because they have been preparing that invasion for two generations(Path of Daggers, p. 487). They will come, and they will destroy any conventional forces in their paths.

They have magic-users capable of ripping apart any large forces of conventional troops with ease.

They have an air-force capable of transporting relatively large forces anywhere they want to in Randland.

They have a huge fleet.

They have a HUGE number of trained, professional armed forces. One rebellion: 30k dead, 1.5 Million captured. (Path of Daggers p. 491).

They have lots of experience fighting. (Path of Daggers, chapter 24, p. 523: "He had fought in two dozen battles with damane used on both sides."

The only real users of the OP in Randland are the Aes Sedai. There are other groups, but they are very inexperienced, very weak, and useless for any military use.

Even if Alexander could somehow secure the entirety of Randland in 1.5 years, he wont be able to defeat the Seanchan, simply because there is no counter to damane in Randland (except for Aes Sedai, but they aren't that effective in a fight as they can't use the OP as a weapon unless directly in danger of their life).

Answer me one question: Do you think that Alexander can defeat the damane-equipped armies of the Seanchan?

Remember: There are no forces in Randland capable of defeating them.

[D.Turtle]

I cannot admit defeat when the facts indicate the opposite. Currently the situation really rests on Alexander's ability in the strategic realm, to obtain counters to the extraordinary units of his enemies--and the ability of him to do this is perhaps best answered by someone more knowledge to the field of combat. Should he be able to counter the ability of the Seanchan in magic, even merely to the point of providing his troops a margin of protection, then he should be fully capable of contesting for "the rulership of the world" with them.

Can he somehow disable the advantage of the superior mobility of Seanchan forces through the use of their massive fleet and their air-force?

The damane aren't their only advantage.

[HemlockGrey]

I broke out the White Book, and took a look at Chapter 26, 'The Military of the Land'

It does indeed say that infantry are armed mostly with pikes or spears. However, there are three problems with this.

1) It goes on to state that infantry usually has only leather armor

2) The very beginning of the chapter states that, and I quote directly:

...general lack of military organization and discipline throughout the nations of the land. Since the War Of The Hundred Years, when most military science was lost, armed forces have lapsed into very casual arrangements

The armies that do exist are in a large part levied only when needed. Each levy is usually made up a group of partially trained men who owe personal allegiance to the noble who gatherse and finances them, rather than to any particular nation.

This then leads us to the third problem, namely:

3) The infantry will get their asses beaten in. Why? Well, as noted above, they lack any sort of armor beyond leather, and they are levied militia, rather than disciplined, professional soldiers. Light cavalry will rip them apart. Not to mention the logistical problems presented by independent divisions of troops reliant upon a particular noble for supplies.

The Book does note that most nations, exluding Cairhein, Altara, Arad Doman, and the Borderlands do field a standing army owing alliegance to the throne. However, it also notes that these formations are never larger than five or six thousand men.

Further, it mentions that almost all battles are fought with no more than 5K-10K men on either side.

It also goes on to note that the high command almost always goes to the nobility, who, as it is mentioned many times throughout the series, almost universally favor the cavalry charge.

[D.Turtle]

That doesn't count for the Seanchan, and it doesn't count for the Borderlands.

So it is irrelevant, as Alexander will still be defeated by the Seanchan.

[HemlockGrey]

Of course, there is at least one group of hidden Power-users that can use magic as a weapon, that being the Kin, who reside in Altara, a kingdom which will collapse like a fat man sitting on beachchair the moment it comes into contact with Alexander. Even if it does remain secret, one Alexander takes Tar Valon- and there is nothing to stop him from doing so- he will have access to all the knowledge of the Aes Sedai, including their knowledge of the Kin and all the magical artifacts under their control.

What's to stop him from creating a new order of magic-users, their powers multiplied by the artifacts, to stop the Seanchan?

[D.Turtle]

Nobody (except a few of the Aes Seda - and they dont know how many there are) know that the Kin exists.

The Kin is made up entirely of runaways and wilders). These are relatively untrained people - unable to be an effective weapon against the trained damane.

Having casters in your army does not immediately mean that you can stand up to the Seanchan - the Seanchan have lots of experience fighting armies that have their own casters (Path of Daggers p. 523).

The Kin has zero experience fighting. They will be slaughtered.

If Alexander invades Tar Valon, it would mean that he would have to defeat/kill the Aes Sedai, thereby making any and all support from Aes Sedai non-existant. Besides, Aes Sedai are not helpless. Once Warders start to fight, they can use all of their abilities to fight Alexander's army (in Lord of Chaos - they were using fire balls, lightning strikes etc against the 40k Aiel attacking them - in fact they held off the 40k Aiel despite enemy caster support by creating barriers with the OP that the Aiel couldn't pass).

You also have to remember that Alexander would have to GET to all those places he wants to invade. He has to assemble armies from lands he oculd have conquered. He does not have access to a force as mobile as the Seanchan are with their air force.

The Seanchan can strike wherever they want to. And even relatively small forces would be capable of defeating large forces through the use of damane.

The only force that has casters, trained in destruction as well as damane are, are the Ashaman. Since these do not exist (thereby making an alliance with them impossible), there is no force really capable of holding up to damane.

[D.Turtle]

Oops, didnt see your last question:

Who will train the new order?

How will Alexander even know about the approaching threat of a Seanchan invasion?

How will Alexander control the entirety of Randland, raise and train a new order of magic-users, somehow get his army a mobility comparable to the Seanchan, and create a military force as large and well-trained as the Seanchan military in at the very most 1.5 years (more like 1 year)?

This is impossible. No conventional military force can march across most of Randland in 1.5 years (not to mention fighting battles, sieging cities, consolidating your conquered regions). It is impossible.

[HemlockGrey]

I will address most of your points later today, but please stop with the 'air force' stuff. The Seanchan flyer-lizard things can't hold any more than a few people. They are scouts, not troop carriers.

[Oddity]

SNIP

Fucking browser crached and ate my reply. It's late, will post tomorrow.

[D.Turtle]

They have scouts as well as larger creatures that can carry at least a dozen soldiers (Path of Daggers p.166 "Each one crowded with a dozen Fists of Heaven"). Might not seem like much, but coupled with damane it is a very potent and very deadly raiding force - able to strike anywhere, anytime and with lots of force. A force to be reckoned with and not to be dismissed lightly.

[D.Turtle]

Oh one more thing: Whats this 'White Book' that you mention?

Do you mean 'The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time'?