The Force vs. everything else from every other known fiction

[KK]

As for KK's whining, knocking over an object doesn't require as much as lifting it(I can regularly push over large rocks far too big for me to lift), so you'd better run some calc's if you want to be ironclad. If you haven't, you're being justifiably flamed.

He did it with one finger.

[Darth_Shinji]

You'd be well served to learn the real definition of that.

Quite Yes-man. I'm trying to stop this thread hi-jack with your savior.

I'm trying to endure your spelling and idiocy, Shinji, why should I make your job easier? You want the hijack over? Go to Other Sci-Fi, and prove your claim. Make a new thread. Or, alternately, you can STFU troll.

Your the one who came into this thread in the first place. You brought it up not me. And now I'm just going back to the thread at hand. You STFU troll.

[Ghost Rider]

Just before I think of either splitting or locking.

KK, mind telling me beyond some form of goading Wong is their a reason you made this thread or did you want to see it shunted into the HoS?

[Connor MacLeod]

He's bitching because he thinks its perfectly justifiable to be inconsistent in logic (particularily because he THINKS the rest of us are and just being biased by not letting him how he thinks we act.)

[Darth_Shinji]

And I want to apoligize to you KK for the rather long thread hi-jack. Its easier throwing old shit than answering present day questions.


And GR at least wait for DW's responses. I asked him those specificaly.

[KK]

Just before I think of either splitting or locking.

KK, mind telling me beyond some form of goading Wong is their a reason you made this thread or did you want to see it shunted into the HoS?

I think I made it pretty clear.

I want to know why the Force can do whatever it damn well pleases, but if we don't provide lengthy calcs for why people can do something with, say, DBZ's ki, then it doesn't count.

Or why Wong can negate Firelord's durability by saying the black hole he survived had some flaws in regards to the passing of time within it, yet Jedi can see into the future and nothing is thought of it.

[Typhonis 1]

maybe because the Force astss like psychic powers. Telepathy Telekenesis,Precognition are all force powers as they are Psychic powers.

If time doesnt pass in a black hole then how can a fight happen and if Firelord is so strong how did a mere mortal like Spidey win in a fight?

[Connor MacLeod]

Wouldn't it affect everything else? The Force can.

You can exert force on a wall and not do any work whatsoever. Does this mean that a violation of physics exists? You can attempt to exert force on objects without seemingly doing anything, you know. (The force you exert on a wall, for example, is insufficient to overcome the resistance generated by the wall.)

Anyway while comendable this will not get us anywhere, what about the Vong? Force can press the air molecles to kill them but can't effect them directly.

And this makes you believe the fact the Vong might have some resistance or immunity to the Force acting directly on them is a violation of science how? If you can't "touch" something you cannot exert force on it, either. Its possible that the "wall" analogy above might also apply (I like how you considered alternatives before making your conclusion, btw And you wonder why people consider you an idiot.)

Hence, if the Vong cannot be "touched" directly by the Force, it cannot exert TK on them. (You may note that the Vong themselves use telepathic interactions as a form of communication - IE Yammosks, and they *aren't* immune to that.)

It should be noted that this "immunity" is not absolute, IIRC Traitor and onward exactly. And there were also Ysalamiri (who created Force-empty "bubbleS" that nullified a Jedi's abilities) as well as I believe the Ssi-Ruuk.

And the big two TK and Precog themselves break phyisical laws anyway.

I can't wait to hear your logic and evidence on this, because last time I checked, it wasn't. (I'm sure you've got some really good reasons for this as well.)

[SirNitram]

As for KK's whining, knocking over an object doesn't require as much as lifting it(I can regularly push over large rocks far too big for me to lift), so you'd better run some calc's if you want to be ironclad. If you haven't, you're being justifiably flamed.

He did it with one finger.

....And? I can push over those rocks with one toe. Still can't lift them. You want to prove he's got more than 15 tons of strength, get to work proving it the old fashioned way, screencaps or calculations.

I can draw out why a Neth Archwizard has Yoda beat twelve times to sunday on, say, TK, by pointing to a description of them being able to hold a mountain up for weeks. That's rather less ambiguous than what you're citing.

[Darth_Shinji]

Wouldn't it affect everything else? The Force can.

You can exert force on a wall and not do any work whatsoever. Does this mean that a violation of physics exists? You can attempt to exert force on objects without seemingly doing anything, you know. (The force you exert on a wall, for example, is insufficient to overcome the resistance generated by the wall.)

What gets me is that this wall can stop my pushes but you could walk right threw it without hindrance.

And this makes you believe the fact the Vong might have some resistance or immunity to the Force acting directly on them is a violation of science how? If you can't "touch" something you cannot exert force on it, either. Its possible that the "wall" analogy above might also apply (I like how you considered alternatives before making your conclusion, btw And you wonder why people consider you an idiot.)

The thing is that no matter the force I put on the Vong with The Force I could never directly touch them threw the wall. Its not a matter of strenght.

Hence, if the Vong cannot be "touched" directly by the Force, it cannot exert TK on them. (You may note that the Vong themselves use telepathic interactions as a form of communication - IE Yammosks, and they *aren't* immune to that.)

It should be noted that this "immunity" is not absolute, IIRC Traitor and onward exactly. And there were also Ysalamiri (who created Force-empty "bubbleS" that nullified a Jedi's abilities) as well as I believe the Ssi-Ruuk.

The problem is that the Vong are immune to any force I extert on them threw the Force. Which is a phyisical immposibility. I should be able to gather enought energy to push threw it if it worked like a wall.

And the big two TK and Precog themselves break phyisical laws anyway.

I can't wait to hear your logic and evidence on this, because last time I checked, it wasn't. (I'm sure you've got some really good reasons for this as well.)

CoE? LoC?

[KK]

....And? I can push over those rocks with one toe. Still can't lift them. You want to prove he's got more than 15 tons of strength, get to work proving it the old fashioned way, screencaps or calculations.

I already posted the scans of the scene.

The boxcar flipped into the air, did a twirl, and landed several meters away, with just a flick of his finger.

Wong said it didn't count since the metal wasn't drawn as denting properly.

[SirNitram]

Shinji's trolling would be less funny if he didn't realize the real violation with TK is conservation of momentum, not energy(It's only a world of difference). Of course, as long as momentum acts on something at the same time, it's balanced out.

And Precog is perfectly acceptable if you allow for a deterministic universe. Or, if Shinji actually knew what he was on about, he'd realize the Force's precog is merely a jumble of possibilities.. You know, analyzing and estimating.

[SirNitram]

....And? I can push over those rocks with one toe. Still can't lift them. You want to prove he's got more than 15 tons of strength, get to work proving it the old fashioned way, screencaps or calculations.

I already posted the scans of the scene.

The boxcar flipped into the air, did a twirl, and landed several meters away, with just a flick of his finger.

Wong said it didn't count since the metal wasn't drawn as denting properly.

Link?

[KK]

maybe because the Force astss like psychic powers. Telepathy Telekenesis,Precognition are all force powers as they are Psychic powers.

DBZ ki can also be used for telepathy, telekenesis, and precognition. It can also be used to grow extra limbs, surpass the speed of light, teleport across dimensions, and lift mountains.

McLoed still insists on everything they do in the show to be completely explainable with physics.

If time doesnt pass in a black hole then how can a fight happen

Time not passing in a black hole is a *theory*, not a *fact*. Clearly, in the MU, time does pass in a black hole, and the theory was wrong in that universe. However, every other property of the black hole was shown as how we think of it. Light unable to escape, immense pressure, and all that.

So, unlike Wong's accusations, I am not pickign and choosing what theories to allow. I am mearly going by reality as shown in the Marvel universe.

and if Firelord is so strong how did a mere mortal like Spidey win in a fight?

Firelord *is* so strong, and Spider-Man beating him was writer stupidity. and that's precisely the reason I did *not* bring the reference up until I got sick of Ghost Rider accusing me of only using the highest possible Spider-Man feats, when I was really using his average feats and leaving out his greatest feats.

[KK]

And Precog is perfectly acceptable if you allow for a deterministic universe. Or, if Shinji actually knew what he was on about, he'd realize the Force's precog is merely a jumble of possibilities.. You know, analyzing and estimating.

Which shouldn't allow for them to change it. They should be like Dr. Manhattan, able to see all time at once but unable to change the future.

[SirNitram]

And Precog is perfectly acceptable if you allow for a deterministic universe. Or, if Shinji actually knew what he was on about, he'd realize the Force's precog is merely a jumble of possibilities.. You know, analyzing and estimating.

Which shouldn't allow for them to change it. They should be like Dr. Manhattan, able to see all time at once but unable to change the future.

Whoever said they changed anything? Those Force-visions I recall always come true in the typical way of a vision you're trying to avoid: In exactly the unexpected way. If you can remember a time when they completely changed something, please post it.

[KK]

Link?

Here is the scan of the scene.



Looking at it, I may have misremembered about it actually lifting into the air. Either way, this was quite clearly written as a display of strength, yet Wong actually tried to pass it off as proof that Spider-Man is too weak to dent the metal.

It was discussed in the "Jedi vs. Scarlet Spider" thread, which is still on on the first page of this board. Somewhere towards the beginning (it's a 20 page thread).

[KK]

Whoever said they changed anything? Those Force-visions I recall always come true in the typical way of a vision you're trying to avoid: In exactly the unexpected way. If you can remember a time when they completely changed something, please post it.

If they can't change what's destined, then how is it useful in combat?

They'll see the fist coming into contact with their face and be unable to stop it.

[SirNitram]

Well, that's certainly impressive. Then again, it may well be within the limits of 15 tons he's stated as having. I'm crappy at torque calc's. You might want to provide some numbers before you claim too much more from that scene, aside from the obvious 'Spidey can knock over heavy objects that are already lifted slightly'.

As for the precog, you're running into one of the great problems with a deterministic universe(One of the big reasons I consider it a load of bull), but I'm not here to provide philosophy. In the end, if the SW universe is deterministic, Precog will work. Every move they dodge they will always dodge, because it's set in stone. If not, the only resolution for PreCog while within the normal rules is it to be some advanced form of prediction.

Of course, since Mike hasn't incinerated me for my Netherese calc's(And these guys would splatter Spidey and some of his friends like bugs), I can only presume you might be talking out your ass claiming all other things are overanalyzed.

[Darth Wong]

It isn't the power itself being "analyzed all to shit"; it's your bullshit attempt to claim that the official specs are all wrong, using science only when it suits you and ignoring all of the problems with your ignorant dishonest application of it.

I've already explained to you that Handbook stats have never been official, and website stats are even less official.

Why not?

But that's not the issue.

What I'm refering to is when I post a picture of Spider-Man knocking over a subway car, and your insist the picture is actually proof that Spider-Man can't dent metal, and bullshit like that.

That is precisely what I'm talking about. You say you posted a picture of Spiderman knocking over a subway car (actually an empty box car), but what you actually posted was Spiderman tipping over a boxcar that was already up on an angle, without even denting it.

It is not "bullshit" to point this out; the lack of deformation in the boxcar is a direct observation of the picture you posted.

In short, you post a picture and then you tell us to ignore the part of it that does not fit your argument. You're a dishonest little shit, and have been since the beginning.

Or when I post a reference of Silver Surfer fighting in a black hole and you insist that it never really happened because it "shouldn't" happen, even though it did.

You post a reference of Silver Surfer fighting in something he believes is a black hole. However, time does not pass in a black hole, therefore it is impossible to fight or move or feel or think or even exist inside one, unless it isn't really a black hole.

You have never refuted this; you simply mock the conclusion without being able to address the logic. A black hole is defined in a certain manner, and one of the parts of that definition is that time does not flow inside it. If someone is doing something and acting inside a dark region of space and we can see it, then it is obviously not a black hole by definition.

In short, what makes you think it's a black hole? It doesn't act like a black hole, so what gives you the impetus to claim that I'm being ridiculous to say that it must not be one?

And while we're at it, why don't you try to calculate the force necessary to move around inside a black hole? Can't do it, can you? Because the parameters of the very question don't make any sense! You flaunt your ignorance of science as if it's some kind of advantage rather than a weakness. You use scientific terms and then refuse to accept their definitions when it turns out that they're inconvenient. You post pictures and then tell us to ignore all of the parts of the picture which don't support your argument. You brag about your literature study in an argument over black holes and metal deformation, as if it's relevant. You're a class A bullshitter.

[KK]

Well, that's certainly impressive. Then again, it may well be within the limits of 15 tons he's stated as having. I'm crappy at torque calc's. You might want to provide some numbers before you claim too much more from that scene, aside from the obvious 'Spidey can knock over heavy objects that are already lifted slightly'.

I also posted a scene where Spidey lifts a subway car straight up over his head and holds it there.

Wong gave the same sort of reply, saying the metal wasn't shown dented the way it should have been, so it doesn't count. He was also saying that since the back left corner of the car was off-panel, it was probably resting on a fortunately placed boulder or something.

Also, the reason I'm an "idiot for ignoring hsi official strength level" is because I gave this in an exchange that went something like this, paraphrased:

Wong: "Spider-Man can only lift 15 tons at max using every muscle in his body, according to his official stats."
Me: "No, 15 tons is the ammount he can do benchpress reps with, and he can lift more, as seen here, here, here, and here."
Wong: "That piece of metal didn't dent right!"
[continue, until...]
Wong: "You're stupid. A person can deadlift more than they can benchpress, dumb-ass. So just because he can deadlift more than 15 tons doesn't mean he can benchpress that much!"

Take note of what I actually posted the scans in response to, which was his claim that 15 tons was his total deadlift, and the very first thing I said was that 15 tons was his benchpress.

As for the precog, you're running into one of the great problems with a deterministic universe(One of the big reasons I consider it a load of bull), but I'm not here to provide philosophy. In the end, if the SW universe is deterministic, Precog will work. Every move they dodge they will always dodge, because it's set in stone. If not, the only resolution for PreCog while within the normal rules is it to be some advanced form of prediction.

The thing is, that's not how it is used in versus debates.

[Darth_Shinji]

Shinji's trolling would be less funny if he didn't realize the real violation with TK is conservation of momentum, not energy(It's only a world of difference). Of course, as long as momentum acts on something at the same time, it's balanced out.

Where does the energy come from? Why does the energy have a tk effect and can strangle a person but his hands can't touch it? Why is it that a specific person could not be touched with this force no matter how much force is applied?

And Precog is perfectly acceptable if you allow for a deterministic universe. Or, if Shinji actually knew what he was on about, he'd realize the Force's precog is merely a jumble of possibilities.. You know, analyzing and estimating.

Done by who? Jedi have said that they can see or feel future events threw the Force. Who does the computing... and saying that the SW universe itself allows for precog but we can still say it works in debates with other universes is prob going to get you flamed by Wong himself. Considering thats the same intent he is opposed too.

[Shinova]

I also posted a scene where Spidey lifts a subway car straight up over his head and holds it there.

I think I can reply to that. If Spidey was holding up a subway car, the car's weight applied on such a narrow surface area as Spidey's hand, would've caused Spidey's hand to pierce through the car, eventually so that either Spidey ends up holding the car on his shoulders, or he finds himself INSIDE the car.

But since it didn't, there was a violation of physics involved.

[KK]

Why not?

They aren't, and never have been. It's not company policy that the handbooks overule the comics, it's never been said that the handbooks are canon, and handbooks are flat-out wrong in many cases. Spider-Man may not be one of them, but there are indeed cases where the handbooks are just stupid.

Really, the Handbooks are generally joked about and mocked on comic boards.

That is precisely what I'm talking about. You say you posted a picture of Spiderman knocking over a subway car (actually an empty box car), but what you actually posted was Spiderman tipping over a boxcar that was already up on an angle, without even denting it.

Here comes the lecture about how metal's supposed to dent a certain way.

It is not "bullshit" to point this out; the lack of deformation in the boxcar is a direct observation of the picture you posted.

Or how about we make another explination for why it would be possible to flick the thing over like that yet not dent it. This is the Marvel Universe, a world where reinforced steel is one of the weakest metals around, and titanium is laughed at, because the science is more advanced and they have hybrid metals that put any real metals to shame. We can just say the boxcar was made of one of the many uber-metals found in the MU.

You post a reference of Silver Surfer fighting in something he believes is a black hole.

He is a nigh cosmic being with cosmic awareness. He knows what he's talking about.

I don't know why you are so threatened by the idea that some things in a fictional universe might not work the same way as in the real world.

However, time does not pass in a black hole,

Apparently it does in the MU.

therefore it is impossible to fight or move or feel or think or even exist inside one, unless it isn't really a black hole.

So what was it, then, wiseass?

Something that has every property of a black hole except one? Ok, so he survived force equilivent to a black hole.

It's not like he hasn't also survived supernovas and flown through stars just to clean himself off.

You have never refuted this; you simply mock the conclusion without being able to address the logic. A black hole is defined in a certain manner, and one of the parts of that definition is that time does not flow inside it.

IN THE REAL WORLD.

If someone is doing something and acting inside a dark region of space and we can see it, then it is obviously not a black hole by definition.

We also see them when they're moving faster than light. It's called artistic license.

In short, what makes you think it's a black hole? It doesn't act like a black hole, so what gives you the impetus to claim that I'm being ridiculous to say that it must not be one?

Fine, it's a Marvel black hole, which isn't exactly like a real world black hole in that time still flows within it. But it shares all the other properties, or the writer wouldn't have explicitely explained that it was a block hole.

And while we're at it, why don't you try to calculate the force necessary to move around inside a black hole? Can't do it, can you? Because the parameters of the very question don't make any sense! You flaunt your ignorance of science as if it's some kind of advantage rather than a weakness. You use scientific terms and then refuse to accept their definitions when it turns out that they're inconvenient. You post pictures and then tell us to ignore all of the parts of the picture which don't support your argument. You brag about your literature study in an argument over black holes and metal deformation, as if it's relevant. You're a class A bullshitter.

So let me ask you. Silver Surfer vs. a Jedi. The Jedi wins because the method in which the writer has displayed Silver Surfer's insane durability isn't technically possible?

The bottom line is that the comic book writers think of him as being able to survive black holes, survive supernovas, and fly through stars, and yet those same comic writers also think Spider-Man can hurt him with his punches.

You're arguing semantics. When the writers clearly and blatantly display one thing, only a fucking jackass would try to undermine what they wrote by whining about how it wouldn't work in the real world.

Or we can drop the black hole, and concentrate on the supernovas he's survived and stars he's flown through. Those still require a bit of durability, no?

[KK]

I think I can reply to that. If Spidey was holding up a subway car, the car's weight applied on such a narrow surface area as Spidey's hand, would've caused Spidey's hand to pierce through the car, eventually so that either Spidey ends up holding the car on his shoulders, or he finds himself INSIDE the car.

But since it didn't, there was a violation of physics involved.

Do you not understand that you are supporting the very reason I started thsi thread?

And no, you din't reply to that. You nit-picked at it. There's a difference. If you were to read the writer's script, do you think it would've said "Spidey lifts the subway car" or "Spidey lifts the subway car, which doesn't dent, therefore allowing it to be ignored in debates".