Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

[Agent Fisher]

So much for my hope that SmallJon Umber, one of Robb Starks most loyal bannermen in the books, would be playing the long game and was going to betray the Boltons. Especially when he started the chant of "Who owns the north?" So was hoping that would signal the Umber levies to turn on the Boltons.

[Simon_Jester]

Nah, it's all good. Especially the Rickon scene - come on, no way he's making it out of this alive (they'd have to keep paying his actor). You knew he was going to get killed by an arrow at the last second.

As to the running in straight line thing... he's a small child, dodging arrows is not second nature for him?

Also, Winterfell really sucks as a defensive castle in the show. There's no moat and drawbridge? Ah well, it was cool to see Wun-Wun punch through the gates.

You could dig a ditch, but it would (as noted) be hard to dig a big ditch, and it would get choked with snow and ice. Even in the novels, Winterfell is more like a sprawling residence than a fortification- complete with a big godswood, greenhouses, and other things that increase the area of the fortified perimeter.

Sure, it's got towers and walls and a large army can hold it, but it's not a castle in the sense of most fortresses further south. Its main security would come from the difficulty of actually mustering an army big enough to attack it before the Starks could muster an army big enough to defend it.

Come to think of it, Winterfell is also old, possibly one of the oldest structures in Westeros. I don't know if there is any real evidence of technological progress in the setting, but I could easily imagine Winterfell dating back to a more primitive era of fortress design.

Well well, I think that the result of the battle supports my thoughts regarding Jon attacking Ramsay and winterfel. They were getting absolutely wrecked until dues ex machine arrived on the scene. Had he waited a few minutes before blindly charging a wall of cavalry by himself, many lives would have been saved.... It appears that nobody uses scouts in this universe.

They also don't use helmets or shields. Face it, in the words of Dark Helmet "Good is dumb!"

Did they even have large amounts of swords or armor, being an army that consists largely of impoverished wildlings? Aside from that I agree with the rest.

[Thanas]

They get me alll hyped for a nice medieval setpiece battle and then there is this stuff.

Entertaining, but the only competent ones were the bolton infantry.

Also don't get why Ramsey kept firing at his own cavalry, they were outnumbering the starks and would have won the melee.

[Thanas]

https://streamable.com/pfnz

[Kingmaker]

Would it kill one director to portray a medieval battle in a quasi-realistic manner? I feel like the closest its come that I've seen is fucking Vikings. Which is just sad. Also, giving the giant a club and the most rudimentary of armor/a helmet and he'd be basically unstoppable.

I don't really know why you need Jon being turbo-dumb for this episode to work. They've already gone to great lengths to hype the fact that his army is badly outclassed, so you can still have the riders of rohan swoop in dramatically to save the day.

Even in the novels, Winterfell is more like a sprawling residence than a fortification- complete with a big godswood, greenhouses, and other things that increase the area of the fortified perimeter.

It's a huge castle with an 80-foot wall, a moat, and then a 100-foot wall. It may not be the Eerie, but it ain't nothing to fuck with. It's still one of the great fortresses of Westeros.

[Guardsman Bass]

Sure, it's got towers and walls and a large army can hold it, but it's not a castle in the sense of most fortresses further south. Its main security would come from the difficulty of actually mustering an army big enough to attack it before the Starks could muster an army big enough to defend it.

Kingmaker beat me to it, but this is what Winterfell looks like in the books. Two massive curtain walls, a moat between the curtain walls* with drawbridges, and then an inner keep. They obviously couldn't do that whole thing for the show, but still - not even an outside moat?

* Side-note, but that's a strange design. I've read an argument that it's because Winterfell was designed to fight the Others primarily, not other human combatants.

I don't really know why you need Jon being turbo-dumb for this episode to work. They've already gone to great lengths to hype the fact that his army is badly outclassed, so you can still have the riders of rohan swoop in dramatically to save the day.

I think they were going for "Sansa was right, Jon should have just waited and he would have had a damn army from the South to help", except that then Ramsay's forces would have holed up in Winterfell and forced them into a siege. And of course that's messed up because a giant could punch a hole through the front door for them. What a mess, and yeah it's kind of annoying that Jon had to come out as stupid and suicidal from this.

[Imperial Overlord]

The design isn't that strange. Constantinople has walls designed around the same principle. The land walls consisted of a 6 foot wall followed by a kill zone space and then a twenty foot wall and another kill zone space and then the thirty foot wall. And there was a moat to top it off. The sheer size of those walls is absurd but this is a world with a thousand foot tall ice walls and giants so yeah, maybe not so absurd.

[Vympel]

Things I liked:

- I love Dany in this episode. Bang on, Emilia Clarke nails it. Proper royal bearing, no endless speeches - just being in command.
- The best material Tyrion's had all season, hands down. His calling Dany out on her skirting close to Mad King territory, and shitting on Theon for his crimes.
- Saw Grey Worm killing the two slavers from a mile off, still thought it was great
- Ramsay talking about Jon's reputation in the North was a very nice touch. I like being reminded that people talk about this stuff. I liked Jon trying to get under Ramsay's skin too - sure it didn't work, but the cocksure way Jon talked was cool.
- Tormund and Davos - was waiting for this all season. The "Jon's not a king" line was a nice bit of foreshadowing, I think.
- Finally, Melisandre is given something to do.
- That battle scene was so damn good, I won't go on about it, but it was easily one of the best battle scenes ever put on film - including movies.
- Suck shit, Smalljon. Die to a wildling, I hope your entire family is realy embarassed about it. Even if he is the greatest wildling warrior who ever lived.
- I liked Ramsay relying on his bow and arrow. We only ever saw him fight hand to hand once and there's no indication he's particularly good at it (wild exaggerations about that 'shirtless' fight aside amongst the fandom).
- I liked him dying horribly even better.
- Stark banner in Winterfell - all the feels.

Things I didn't like:

- Sansa in the tent. What the fuck was that? She goes off at Jon about whether it "occurs to him that I might have some insight" etc in this ridiculous aggrieved fashion - but there's no indication whatsoever that Jon or anyone else is holding her back from providing that insight.
- Sansa not telling Jon about Littlefinger. I mean, come on. There's a million "maybe she thought ..." excuses for why she didn't, but its just poor form. Yes, the battle may have gone down the same way regardless, but there's no reason to withhold that information. She complains about not being consulted but refuses to offer information about vital potential reinforcements.
- Rickon's death. I just hate it. And they really made sure, didn't they? The arrows landing on his corpse was gratutitous as hell. Also: Rickon didn't utter a single damn word this whole season. The fuck.
- related: Jon falling hook, line and sinker for Ramsay's ploy, even when warned. I just wanted a battle where the good guys won because they had a better plan rather than the bad guys having the better plan and only losing due to unexpected reinforcements.
- speaking of, Littlefinger Gandalf is my least favorite intervention ever. I was expecting it for ages, though, they hung that gun on the wall very early in the season. Still, the Vale knights charging in did look pretty cool.
- Ramsay shoots arrows into his own (and Karstark and Umber) men and neither Smalljon or Karstark have a problem with it.

Questions:

- So did Dany agree to give the Iron Islands their independence? Mixed messages there - on the one hand the word 'independence' is bandied about but Dany's terms are they "respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms" which by definition includes the Iron Islands?
- so Ramsay says he's got 6,000 men - Sansa says she heard '5,000' for the Boltons which by definition is pre-battle with Stannis - so the Umber and Karstark contribution would've been what - maybe 500-1,000 men each, taking into account Bolton casualties in the battle with Stannis?

[Guardsman Bass]

It was definitely shitty of Sansa not to tell Jon about potential reinforcements from the South. That would have changed his battle plans entirely, probably towards drawing out Ramsay's forces away from Winterfell so that the Vale army could hit the Bolton force from the rear (cutting them off from the sanctuary of Winterfell). Instead, she got a ton of Jon's forces killed before the Vale showed up.

To be totally cynical, I almost wonder if was supposed to be intentional - Sansa weakening Jon's power base before winning the battle with those loyal to her, thus killing Ramsay and diminishing a potential "threat" at the same time. I hope Jon confronts her about it next episode, although I'm not optimistic about that happening.

- So did Dany agree to give the Iron Islands their independence? Mixed messages there - on the one hand the word 'independence' is bandied about but Dany's terms are they "respect the integrity of the Seven Kingdoms" which by definition includes the Iron Islands?

This reminds me of how much I hate so many of the changes they've made to Asha/Yara.

[Napoleon the Clown]

I have zero problem with Ramsay ordering his archers to fire into a group comprised of a mix of his own men and Jon's army. He's a sadistic moron. It is, however, absurd that nobody under Ramsay thought this to be a bad move. Then again, I guess the Idiot Field theory is mostly correct.

Dany's impulses are very similar to her father's, though it seems she can actually be talked to and if she's informed how fucked up her plan is she's willing to change it. The former does not bode well, the latter does.

[Lord Revan]

I have to say that I like that in the end it wasn't Jon Snow who beat Ramsay Bolton/Snow but Ramsay himself who beat him, had Ramsay not fired idiotically into his own men I'm sure his cavarly would have made short of work of Jon Snow's army but thanks to Ramsay being sadistic idiot Jon Snow's army was able to endure until the Vale's forces came and Ramsay ended up being fed to his own hounds.

[Ralin]

It is, however, absurd that nobody under Ramsay thought this to be a bad move.

I'm sure they thought it. But as you noted this is Ramsay we're talking about and I took it as a given he'd kill any of his lieutenants who questioned him on the spot.

[Thanas]

I doubt he would just kill a lord objecting to his command. Ramsey can be reasoned with if it helps him win something. Sure he might stab them later on, but that is later.

[Simon_Jester]

It is, yeah, very much in character for Ramsay-of-the-books, and probably Ramsay-of-the-show, to do something dumb and brutal like firing vollies of arrows into a melee his own men are fighting in. What's more than a bit surprising is that his men would obey the order rather than just turning on him out of sheer terror and anger at his ghoulishness.

I mean, he might try to kill people who refused his orders, but a lot of armies would start falling apart pretty fast if you tried to pull something like "archers on the left, shoot the archers on the right for refusing to shoot our own infantry." It's not like Ramsay has something like the Soviets' commissar system to ensure that army officers obey stupid or suicidal orders.

[FaxModem1]

NPR did a piece on Ramsay's actions.

The Banality Of Evil: Ramsay Bolton's Dogged Cruelty On 'Game Of Thrones'

June 20, 20163:15 PM ET
GLEN WELDON
This post discusses events of Sunday night's episode of HBO's Game of Thrones, "Battle of the Bastards."

Fans of Game of Thrones, and the book series on which it is based, like to compare the moral universe created by author George R.R. Martin to that of his literary predecessor, J.R.R. Tolkien.

Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is black and white, they say — a place where pure, unremitting Eeeeeee-vil threatens pure, noble-hearted Good.

They're not wrong about that: even hardcore Tolkien fans (hi) concede that things can get awfully Manichean in Middle-Earth. That was by design, of course. For us, it really only becomes an issue when Tolkien allows that worldview to seep into his depictions of race — his evil men tend to be "swarthy," while his noble men are more inclined to fair skin and high cheekbones.

Martin's Westeros, his fans will too-happily point out, is a place of moral ambiguity and relativism. Characters are neither wholly good nor cartoonishly evil, but continually make choices that help or hurt others. It's a world much like our own, they say, in which the ever-shifting needs of self-interest are what truly shape behavior. Nuanced, they say. Complicated, they say. Shades of gray.

But then a character like Ramsay Bolton comes along, and they start clearing their throats and manifesting a sudden, intense interest in their Florsheims.

Bolton, played by Iwan Rheon with a smirk so omnipresent you wonder if wee Ramsay once made a face and got stuck like that, met his end last night. It was fittingly bloody and noisy, the petard he got hoist upon.

It was also at least two seasons overdue.

If Westeros can be a cruel place, Bolton was its Sadist-in-Chief, a villain written and performed solely for us to hiss. And pelt with rotting fruit. And imagine getting run over by a steamroller.

Slowly.

Feet first.

The show consistently found Ramsay far more interesting than viewers did. With his every act of gleeful, sadistic violence, the showrunners seemed to be nudging us in the ribs: See? Hanh? Isn't he just awful?

Now heading into its final seasons, Game of Thrones has begun the process of weaving its disparate plotlines together. Characters speed heedlessly toward the apogee of their various narrative arcs.

Except for Ramsay Bolton. That dude's arc was a highway strip.

Showrunners made a few half-hearted feints at giving him an inner life by pairing him with a steely, unforgiving father played by Michael McElhatton. But that all ended in the worst possible way for Ramsay's dad, because that's the law.

The problem with Ramsay wasn't the sheer number of his cruel acts, but their unwavering consistency. In scene after scene he dutifully, doggedly, did the worst thing you could imagine him doing. It was meant to make him seem volatile, horrific, terrifying, but it made him something much worse: predictable.

His cruelty didn't escalate, because it couldn't. Really, after rape, dismemberment, flaying, dog-siccing-upon, and lots and lots of stabbing, where is there left to go? Live kitten filleting? Sea otter vivisection? Mass puffin poisoning?

No. It was his time. As a dramatic device, he served his purpose: He was an obstacle. But as a character, Ramsay Bolton was more one-note than a Philip Glass score.

Rest in pieces.

It does seem that everyone got tired of him but the writers, who just finally now killed him off.

[Elfdart]

I have no problem with Sansa's decision to not tell Jon about the Pimp and the Knights of the Vale. She's to the point where she can't really trust anyone and besides, the Knights are commanded by the Pimp, not Sansa, not Jon, not Davos. Besides, even in the unlikely event Littlefinger and that old noble were dumb enough to throw in with the Stark forces at the outset and put Jon Snow in charge, he would have gotten them massacred in a completely idiotic way, just like he did with his own troops. Thank the Lord of Light that the Vale forces were held back or that pile of corpses would be twice as big and Ramsay would likely be victorious.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sansa will be the anti-Robb from here on out. She knew Rickon was a goner and wrote him off. It also seems likely that she'll marry Littlefinger*, even though she doesn't like him because that alliance might be the only thing to keep her head from ending up on a pike in King's Landing. Compare this to Robb, who basically let his whole army be held hostage by Sansa's imprisonment and his marriage that turned the Freys against him. If he had written off Sansa and killed Jamie, and kept his word by marrying Frey's daughter whether he liked her or not, his headless corpse wouldn't have been strapped to the head of his dead dire wolf.

* And kill him when the time is right.

[Vympel]

I have no problem with Sansa's decision to not tell Jon about the Pimp and the Knights of the Vale. She's to the point where she can't really trust anyone and besides, the Knights are commanded by the Pimp, not Sansa, not Jon, not Davos. Besides, even in the unlikely event Littlefinger and that old noble were dumb enough to throw in with the Stark forces at the outset and put Jon Snow in charge, he would have gotten them massacred in a completely idiotic way, just like he did with his own troops. Thank the Lord of Light that the Vale forces were held back or that pile of corpses would be twice as big and Ramsay would likely be victorious.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sansa will be the anti-Robb from here on out. She knew Rickon was a goner and wrote him off. It also seems likely that she'll marry Littlefinger*, even though she doesn't like him because that alliance might be the only thing to keep her head from ending up on a pike in King's Landing. Compare this to Robb, who basically let his whole army be held hostage by Sansa's imprisonment and his marriage that turned the Freys against him. If he had written off Sansa and killed Jamie, and kept his word by marrying Frey's daughter whether he liked her or not, his headless corpse wouldn't have been strapped to the head of his dead dire wolf.

* And kill him when the time is right.

Next episode has Jon talking to Sansa, apparently about trusting one another, so it'll be cool if Sansa justifies her actions in those terms.

[Simon_Jester]

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that Sansa will be the anti-Robb from here on out. She knew Rickon was a goner and wrote him off. It also seems likely that she'll marry Littlefinger*, even though she doesn't like him because that alliance might be the only thing to keep her head from ending up on a pike in King's Landing. Compare this to Robb, who basically let his whole army be held hostage by Sansa's imprisonment and his marriage that turned the Freys against him. If he had written off Sansa and killed Jamie, and kept his word by marrying Frey's daughter whether he liked her or not, his headless corpse wouldn't have been strapped to the head of his dead dire wolf.

I'm not sure I agree with your interpretation.

Killing Jaime wouldn't necessarily have done Robb much good- Sansa would be dead to relatively little purpose.

Now, Robb keeping his word to marry a Frey would have done more good, and might well have averted the whole disaster even if Jaime escaped.

[Darth Yan]

Jon wasn't stupid; Ramsay hit his berserk button by killing his kid brother in front of him. Jon's a good guy and Ramsay knew the buttons to push

[Ralin]

Jon wasn't stupid; Ramsay hit his berserk button by killing his kid brother in front of him. Jon's a good guy and Ramsay knew the buttons to push

Stupid can be defined different ways...but doing something that by all rights should have gotten him and his entire army killed definitely falls under some of them. Especially given that he'd been warned Ramsay would try something like that.

[TheFeniX]

The whole scene was meant for the audience really. How did Jon even know the random dot running toward him was Rickon? It could have just been some kid in furs. At that distance, and I didn't see a single spyglass, Jon didn't know shit. The audience did and the writers just assumed Jon would know what we do. They assumed Jon had access to up-close camera shots. This is poor writing. Imagine how that scene would have played out if we didn't see.... shit, Anya? whatever, wildling chick with the nice body, show up with "unknown actor playing Rickon" a few episodes ago. "Who the fuck is this kid?"

Here's how I would write that scene in the book:

"Jon, what do your elf eyes see?"
"aiee aiee, a Rickon has come!"
And then Jon was a dumbass.

Sansa is a pretty big stand-out. A tall (for a woman) red-head. But some brown haired kid? Direwolf head or not, any dark haired kid with could be brought forward as Rickon. You could just rub horse-shit in a blonde kid's hair.

I mean, would anyone put it past Bolton to send some kid out with a knife to embrace Jon, then stab him, otherwise his parents get fed to the dogs?

Now, Robb keeping his word to marry a Frey would have done more good, and might well have averted the whole disaster even if Jaime escaped.

With a daughter Queen of the North, I see no reason Frey would give two shits about any offer the Lannisters would offer. Rob could have possibly marched all the way to King's Landing with Frey support. Or, he could have just kept the Lannister's bottled up in the South with the Twins as a base, own the North, and launch sorties South to places like Lannisport. This would allow him time to wreck Iron Born face and gain access to ships to strike nearly anywhere. The Boltons would be forced to keep their knee bent to Rob, so that's even more men.

They only two factors that screwed Rob was killing Karstark and screwing Frey out of a marriage. Both happening made perfect sense (at least if you take the book explanation for the Frey fisaco) as Rob inherenting his father's character flaw of Honor above everything else.

[Thanas]

[TheFeniX]

Ha, only complaint: needed a better frame to use "god damn it Leeroy." "Onyxia Wipe animation" would be funny from Ramsey's perspective.

I'm going to sound like a dumbass because I originally thought the Iron Islands were on the East side of Westeros. But question: how fucking long should it have taken Asha's fleet to sail ALL THE WAY around Westeros to get to Esos? Seems like it took next to no time at all. Wouldn't thank take at least a month? Maybe more?

[Simon_Jester]

In the novel, Victarion Greyjoy leads his fleet across the western ocean to Essos and does not sail around Westeros. I'm not clear on whether Asha did the same. I imagine so, though. Remember, Dany's traveled pretty far to the east herself just getting to the area around Meereen, and there's that whole "to go west you must go east" prophecy around her. Going around the world the long way would be very much her style.

Now, Robb keeping his word to marry a Frey would have done more good, and might well have averted the whole disaster even if Jaime escaped.

With a daughter Queen of the North, I see no reason Frey would give two shits about any offer the Lannisters would offer. Rob could have possibly marched all the way to King's Landing with Frey support. Or, he could have just kept the Lannister's bottled up in the South with the Twins as a base, own the North, and launch sorties South to places like Lannisport. This would allow him time to wreck Iron Born face and gain access to ships to strike nearly anywhere. The Boltons would be forced to keep their knee bent to Rob, so that's even more men.

While I'm not sure it'd have gone that smoothly, it certainly would have been a lot better than what actually happened.

They only two factors that screwed Rob was killing Karstark and screwing Frey out of a marriage. Both happening made perfect sense (at least if you take the book explanation for the Frey fisaco) as Rob inherenting his father's character flaw of Honor above everything else.

Agreed. If anything, Robb has it worse.

Eddard Stark does the honorable thing no matter what- but he thinks ahead, he's got the maturity and judgment to foresee the consequences of his own actions to a pretty substantial degree. He gets outmaneuvered, but to be fair most of the outmaneuvering was done by Littlefinger. And Littlefinger outmaneuvers just about everyone.

Robb Stark seems to do the honorable thing without regard for consequences... and to not think ahead about what honor will require him to do.

Robb hops into bed with a random girl he falls for, and feels 'honor bound' to marry her and thus spit on the Freys.

His father would have had the common sense NOT to hop into bed with a random girl if that would mean he was required by 'honor' to marry her and forgo an important marriage alliance he'd already promised to participate in. And there's supporting evidence for this; Ned Stark doesn't seem to do a lot of sleeping around (especially if Jon Snow isn't actually his son, which seems fairly likely though uncertain).

Robb executes Karstark for killing prisoners.

Ned would probably have done more to keep Karstark's loyalty, and if all else failed simply sent him away to some place he wouldn't have access to key noble prisoners that he might want to take revenge on.

[Alferd Packer]

Ha, only complaint: needed a better frame to use "god damn it Leeroy." "Onyxia Wipe animation" would be funny from Ramsey's perspective.

I'm going to sound like a dumbass because I originally thought the Iron Islands were on the East side of Westeros. But question: how fucking long should it have taken Asha's fleet to sail ALL THE WAY around Westeros to get to Esos? Seems like it took next to no time at all. Wouldn't thank take at least a month? Maybe more?

Probably the better part of a year. It's like sailing from, say, Catalina island to, say, Istanbul. Without the benefit of any canals. In the best case, since the ironborn are adept sailors, they might be able to do it in six months.