I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.
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True enough, after having to deal with child burning and laughing about burning down your capital, anything else is a step up. But we know Barristan actually knew the royal family, while Robert only had his skewed perspectives of them. Everyone seemed right on the money for the Mad King, but Rhaegar was a different story.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-08-28 02:22pm Yeah, I suppose.
I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.![]()
The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-08-28 02:22pm Yeah, I suppose.
I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.![]()
The problem with Rhaegar the rapist is it was TOO obvious a subversion. It's the lowest hanging fruit you can do (kinda like when Garth Ennis subverted the x men by making them into pedophiles in "The Boys"). Having Rhaegar be a benevolent but ultimately flawed man makes sense and adds more depth and is able to subvert the prince charming archetype without being too blatant.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-08-28 02:22pm Yeah, I suppose.
I guess I kind of suspected that Barristan was viewing his former boss through rose-tinted glasses. And, let's face it, anyone would look good next to Aerys.![]()
You'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.
There's only so much "noble" I can give when someone annuls the marriage with a woman he had two children with. He better have some very strong visions as to why he is doing what he is.Imperial Overlord wrote: ↑2017-08-28 03:18pm The exact nature of the Lyanna-Rhaegar relationship has long been in question. Plenty of people said Rhaegar was a great and noble knight, but that meant glossing over the fact that he gave a tourney crown to Lyanna Stark and consequently humiliating his own wife in public and letting everyone know that he had the hots for Lyanna. Lyanna had plenty of reasons not to be thrilled with the prospect of marriage to a temperamental womanizer like Robert and think about running away with Rhaegar, but an obsessed prince seizing the woman he can't have also fitted the facts. We now know that it was starcrossed lovers running away, but there was plenty of reason to suspect that it was otherwise.
Well sure, this is Game of Thrones, with rape, murder and nihilism being the order of the day. But unless Bran's visions/time travel lie to him, Lyanna and Rhaegar were happily married, in a scene straight out of Romeo and Juliet, with their fates being about the same.Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-08-29 01:25amYou'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.
I agree with everything you just said.FaxModem1 wrote: ↑2017-08-29 04:25amWell sure, this is Game of Thrones, with rape, murder and nihilism being the order of the day. But unless Bran's visions/time travel lie to him, Lyanna and Rhaegar were happily married, in a scene straight out of Romeo and Juliet, with their fates being about the same.Simon_Jester wrote: ↑2017-08-29 01:25amYou'd think so, but it would still fit with the character of, say, a very emotional Byronic character. One who's capable of great generosity and altruism, but when it's him fixated on a woman he desires, in a society where women don't normally get a lot of agency and respect, he's quite capable of going to insane or criminal lengths and ignoring that she doesn't love him back.
I also prefer the idea of an actual romance, as opposed to Lyanna falling prey to Stockholm Syndrome or whatever. Their world sucks enough, can't there be a romantic here and there, even if they are tragic ones?
This is another symptom of this season.Kane Starkiller wrote: ↑2017-08-28 09:55am I thought that Sansa and Arya screwing Littlefinger over was nice twist (although half-expected) however his "trial" really wasn't much of trial. No evidence was presented, it was just Starks' say-so. It didn't even seem anyone gathered there was even skeptical of the charges nor were any great lords of the north backing Littlefinger in the first place so what was the trial even for? For Robin Arryn's benefit?
The Knights of the Vale being disloyal to the guy who got command of them under suspiscious circumstances two years ago doesn't require really any buildup.MKSheppard wrote: ↑2017-08-29 06:33pm For example:
They needed a scene or two showing how the Knights of the Vale were wavering in their devotion to Littlefinger as Lord of the Vale; it's only about 30s to 1 min of screen time.
Because otherwise, they're all like "o k-bai" at the trial.
If littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.
I'm with FireNexus on this one. Royce was only doing what Littlefinger said because he was afraid little Lord Arryn would make him fly out the Moon door (as seen last season). Does the casual viewer remember this? Maybe not. But they don't have to cater to the casual viewer.MKSheppard wrote: ↑2017-08-29 06:40pmIf littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.
Actually Baelish himself admitted to murdering Lysa. When Sansa calls him out on it he says "I did it to protect you." So right there he kinda sealed his own death warrant. Anyway it was GREAT watching the bastard squirmMKSheppard wrote: ↑2017-08-29 06:27pmThis is another symptom of this season.Kane Starkiller wrote: ↑2017-08-28 09:55am I thought that Sansa and Arya screwing Littlefinger over was nice twist (although half-expected) however his "trial" really wasn't much of trial. No evidence was presented, it was just Starks' say-so. It didn't even seem anyone gathered there was even skeptical of the charges nor were any great lords of the north backing Littlefinger in the first place so what was the trial even for? For Robin Arryn's benefit?
Stuff happens that makes sense; but is incoherent, with none of the plot lead up to the stuff that you saw in prior seasons of GOT.
For example:
Eurion says he's gonna build a huge navy.
???
He suddenly shows up and assrapes the Sand Snakes at sea.
Likewise, the same happened with Littlefinger's trial.
For all of what he did, he's still the Westerosi equivalent of a "Made Man" as Lord of the Vale, so he can't be arbitrarily executed like a peasant, there has to be a somewhat formal showing of evidence, rather than someone just saying so.
They needed about 5-6 more minutes of scenes there, and maybe 5-6 minutes of screen time across the rest of the episodes to set up this trial.
The thing that struck me in the North is that Balish didn't demand trial by combat. Is that not a thing in the North? Did he (probably rightly) figure that he wouldn't be able to take whoever Sansa put forward as her champion, and that no one else liked him enough to risk dying to save his skin? Or did he just assume he could talk his way out of it until it was too late?MKSheppard wrote: ↑2017-08-29 06:40pmIf littlefinger's trial had happened right after he tossed Lyssa Arryn through the Moon Gate, then yes, that'd be believable in how brief it was. But as it is, he's been HMFIC for the Vale for two years now. So you do need some buildup.
You answered your own question there. Baelish had no one in the world who would act as his champion, and couldn't hope to prevail if fighting for his own cause.The Romulan Republic wrote: ↑2017-08-30 05:39pm Fair enough.
The not asking for trial by combat bit still puzzles me a little, though.