Game of Thrones Season 6 [Discussion of most-recently aired episodes]

[ArmorPierce]

My uninformed speculation is that without the source material to keep the writers in check, they are taking more artistic liberties with the show to drive their plot point rather than attempting to remain true to realism.

Examples:
Dayne disarmed Ned rather than just kill him. Writers wanted to show that Ned was unequivocally going to lose.
Arya received multiple gut stabs. Writers wanted to show how dire her situation was and that she could not get away from the fight.

[Simon_Jester]

The problem isn't that they have to be realistic, it's that the entire artistic theme of the story is built around life being cheap and heroics being rather futile.

Ser Arthur Dayne disarming Ned is fine- because that's something that can happen in a real fight. What's problematic is Ramsay being able to just kill whoever he wants without repercussions (like followers deserting him), or them picking that particular method to "show Arya can't get away." There are a lot of ways to stop someone from escaping a fight besides multiple punctures of their intestines.

[Guardsman Bass]

Arya received multiple gut stabs. Writers wanted to show how dire her situation was and that she could not get away from the fight.

It still seems so pointless to me. It's like with Jon Snow coming back -nobody seriously thinks Arya is going to die in Braavos, so why bother teasing it with the wounds? Just have her trap and kill the Waif when the latter comes looking for her. Use her Faceless Men face-reading skills to see the Waif in a crowd wearing a different face, then lure her to her secret room to kill her in the dark.

[wautd]

Overall a pretty meh episode. Seemed again a lot of filler to build to the season finale.

Favorite part: Brotherhood without Banners being redeemed

Least favorite parts:
- Arya doing parcour like a ninja. It wouldn't be annoying if she wasn't bleeding to death just the day before. It really broke my suspension of disbelief.
- The way they handled the Blackfish. It all seemed like a rather pointless storyarc to me (unless he's not really dead as we didn't saw actually die).

[NecronLord]

- The Brotherhood without Banners, honor restored!

Yes, that.

[FaxModem1]

Are the Brotherhood honorable? They sold Gendry to be human sacrificed for some gold to finance their war, after all.

[TheFeniX]

Are the Brotherhood honorable? They sold Gendry to be human sacrificed for some gold to finance their war, after all.

Sort of a grey area. Did they know Gendry was going to end up being killed for his blood? It's been a while and the deal was between two Red Priests, so there is that. Either way, Meli was working for Stannis and the Goldcloaks already made a move against the Crows to try and get Gendry once. The Brotherhood really didn't seem to be in a position to say no to the deal. They were likely to lose Gendry one way or another.

Here's the scene. Still rooting for someone to off Meli though. Still rooting.

EDIT: I'm aware Gendry didn't actually get killed. Just saying that was pretty much the plan for Stannis getting their hands on him.

[Ziggy Stardust]

A question for book-readers out there: why is it that so many of you really, really want the Lady Stoneheart plot line on the TV show, and seem viscerally disappointed that it might not happen with the way things are developing? Granted, I haven't read the books far enough to get there so I don't know first-hand how that story-line goes, but just reading the plot synopsis for it on the wiki doesn't impress me. Honestly, it sounds like a really stupid plot arc that I'm really glad they are dropping. I know that reading the synopsis is different from reading the book itself, but that whole storyline to me feels like it would just clutter up the show without adding anything of value, other than diluting the impact of Jon Snow's resurrection. Why do so many people find Lady Stoneheart to be so compelling?

[Ralin]

other than diluting the impact of Jon Snow's resurrection.

As I alluded to earlier, it's widely speculated that Lady Stoneheart is there specifically to set up and add an element of uncertainty to Jon Snow's probable resurrection. Lady Stoneheart is to all appearances a murderous, hate-filled revenant with little left of Catelyn except vengefulness. Depending on how GRRM writes the next book that opens up the possibility of some really suspenseful ambiguity over whether Jon's actions in the future are a product of coming back wrong.

Plus she's basically the end point of the Brotherhood's descent from heroic defenders of the common people to a band of roving Frey-killers.

[Elfdart]

Blackfish turned out to be just a speedbump to delay Jamie from going back to King's Landing. Total waste of a cool character*. The whole thread of Arya in Braavos was also a waste of time, save the acting troupe, whom the show's writers and producers didn't have the good sense to keep around. Instead, like every other interesting character, they are disappeared or killed off in a retarded manner. Xenu help us all if Weiss & Benioff ever try to do original material!

As for Arya's wounds, aside from the usual moronic plot armor, it's a possibility she's in a very bad way. She bled quite a lot from the wound and the chase and who says all the blood in the cathedral is the Waif's?

When it comes to Lady Stoneheart, I wouldn't care if she'd been cut out except for the whole scene three seasons ago where Bran describes the elaborate curse on those who do evil to guests under their roofs. It would be pretty shitty storytelling to have the only shot out of that particular Chekhov's Gun to be one of Frey's daughters (plus grandson) being eaten alive by Gordon Ramsay Snow's dogs, plus maybe the Brotherhood hanging a few more.

* Riverrun turned out worse than Dorne. Both were bad plot devices to get Jaime out of town and leave Cersei to the mercy of the Harper Valley PTA. The difference is that Dorne had no characters of any interest, while Riverrun had Blackfish. The whole Dorne thing could have been wrapped up if Myrcella's head had been mailed to Cersei rather than a necklace, and the coup announced offscreen. No, not even the youngest Sand Snake's perky boobs make up for that colossal waste of time. Riverrun was much worse. Not a single man-at-arms sided with Blackfish? Not a single one thought "Wait, aren't these the motherfuckers who massacred our kin the last time we trusted them?" When I likened GoT to pro wrestling last year, I guess I forgot to include that as in pro wrestling, the babyfaces get screwed over time and again by agreeing to shake hands with Michael Hayes after what, how many times he's used his free hand to sucker punch them? This was ten different kinds of stupid.

I did like the Hound being the Hound, and I also liked the High Sparrow wiping his ass with Cersei's trump card. I'm guessing Gargamel's big secret is one of three possibilities:

1) Tyrion is alive, well and working for Dragon Queen.

2) Tyrion didn't use up all the green napalm defending the city. There's enough left to Dresdenize King's Landing.

3) Proof the High Sparrow is some sort of pervert, destroying his credibility.

I also like the way the series depicts ships at sea. The massacre at Hardhome, the flight from Pyke and the Masters shelling Mereen all looked great. I think the TV budget forces them to be tasteful in composing the shots.

What I want to see:

Gordon Ramsay Snow needs to go. Like Joffrey, they've gone to the well way too many times (I get it, he's a sick, evil fuckhead) and now he's not menacing -he's a joke. How they do it, I really don't care since he outlived his usefulness a season ago. However, if I wrote his demise I'd have Bran do a long distance warging and turn his own dogs on him while they were say, hunting Rickon. Kinda like how Artemis got Actaeon's hounds to turn on him and tear him apart.

Jamie needs to die and soon. "I love my sister and my sister loves our kids" blah, blah blah... Six seasons of this shit and counting. Enough already. The only Lannister left who isn't an annoying douchecock is Uncle Kevin. Time for that whole inbred clan to go.

Ditto for Jon Snow. Why did they bother bringing that mopey loser back? He needs to die for real unless he's willing to bite the bullet, shag the red witch and take out GRS before the battle. For once do something smart, ruthless or both because when it comes to being an uninspiring leader, you're right up there with Rich Kotite.

I want to see the Freys get annihilated in gruesome fashion. The show went to the trouble of preaching that what the Freys did was an abomination, so smite them!

I want Brienne to go to the Aerie, tell Robin what happened to his mother, aunt and great uncle, and that Littlefinger was responsible.

I want Yara to pick up Dragon Girl's horse nomads and ship them to fight north of the Wall, since Wildling wights are the only troops they should be able to beat, seeing as how everyone south of the Wall wears armor and the Dothraki don't even have shirts. Funnier still would be if they all froze to death because shirtless nomads fighting in a temperate/sub-arctic region is fucking stupid.

[Darth Yan]

Vox has an interesting article

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/27/11787534/g ... s-spoilers

If George hadn't taken his sweet fat time and invented stupid shit that dragged us down we'd be better off

[Ziggy Stardust]

As I alluded to earlier, it's widely speculated that Lady Stoneheart is there specifically to set up and add an element of uncertainty to Jon Snow's probable resurrection. Lady Stoneheart is to all appearances a murderous, hate-filled revenant with little left of Catelyn except vengefulness. Depending on how GRRM writes the next book that opens up the possibility of some really suspenseful ambiguity over whether Jon's actions in the future are a product of coming back wrong.

Plus she's basically the end point of the Brotherhood's descent from heroic defenders of the common people to a band of roving Frey-killers.

Fair enough, but it seems like they already have Beric Dondarrion to fulfill that role, with him talking about how he isn't quite the same/complete when he comes back. If they really wanted to explore that theme, why not build on the character they already had elaborate on it rather than introduce a new character out of the blue that will just feel a bit contrived/forced (that latter point purely from the perspective of show-watchers who are book illiterate that is - I'm pure speculating from the logic of the showrunners)? Anyway, suppose it's not really relevant, and definitely not worth arguing, I was just curious for some perspective from people more familiar with Lady Stoneheart et al.

No, not even the youngest Sand Snake's perky boobs make up for that colossal waste of time.

Well, I agree with you that Riverrun and Dorne were both trainwrecks of storylines, but those boobs were pretty nice, which might tilt the balance in favor of Dorne for me.

I want Brienne to go to the Aerie, tell Robin what happened to his mother, aunt and great uncle, and that Littlefinger was responsible.

But ... unless I am remembering things severely wrong, Brienne didn't witness any of that, so how would she even know? I guess Sansa may have filled her in on everything, but it's not like Brienne has any credibility in Robin's eyes anyway.

[The Vortex Empire]

Vox has an interesting article

http://www.vox.com/2016/5/27/11787534/g ... s-spoilers

If George hadn't taken his sweet fat time and invented stupid shit that dragged us down we'd be better off

I don't think it would be possible for me to disagree with that article more. AFFC and ADWD are easily Martin's best work, from Quentyn Martell's excellent arc deconstructing the Hero's Journey, Stannis Baratheon's campaign rallying the Northern Houses, Brienne and Jaime in the Riverlands showing the horrors war inflicts upon the common people, the Kingsmoot and the rise of Euron Greyjoy, Davos in the Merman's Court, so on. While the show has just been getting worse and worse since flying off the rails in Season 5.

[Darth Yan]

My father read books 4 and 5 and they killed his enjoyment. The main problem is that a lot of the plotlines were a.) unnecessary and b.) fucking stupid.

The underlying themes established in the first three books were the brewing threat in the north, daenyres trying to get her destiny, and the war of five kings; important things happened in the later books no question but midway through George introduced some new elements out of nowhere. The arcs that were established thus ground to a halt as shit that was unneccessry was pulled out and utilized. Fake Aegon just diminished Dany and felt tacked on; Dorne was a new player thrown in just when things SHOULD have been kicking into high gear.


As a mashable article stated

"We were introduced to a long list of names in Dorne, on the Iron Islands, at the Citadel, on the road to Mereen, and a whole host of other places, without being given much reason to care about them. Martin took exactly the wrong lesson from the success of the first three books: That we'd be interested in anyone that had anything to do with anywhere in Westeros.

Wrong. We're interested in anything that has to do with the characters we've fallen in love with, or love to hate. We want to know if they live or die; we want to know who will win the game of thrones and survive the winter that's coming."

Another part is necessity; because of the budget and time you can't have as many characters as the book; that means some elements will be cut or merge; Quentyn's arc is useless twaddle in the grand scheme of things and thus deservedly got the axe. It also means characters need to have their flaws downplayed; hence why Jon is more decisive in the show


you don't introduce that many brand new characters towards the end game. It just kills the pacing.

As someone else on another forum eloquently stated

"
I think you're doing a disservice to read "has action" as "is meaningless". Action is nothing more than events moving forward or the culmination of things moving forward. Ned's part is a mystery but it has action in it, Daenerys has a ton of action in her part. Things happen, events happen. AFFC and ADFD can be summed up with "characters go to a location, then have a talk, then leave." Especially with Jamie, which was pages of introspection that could have taken one chapter, not fifteen. When I say the books lack action, I'm not saying they need to have constant battles, but they need to have something to happen so there is a sense of progression. Like I was so pissed off that the books essentially don't show Stannis's fight with Ramsey, it just ends with a note to Jon that he lost. All the chapters building to the fight were nothing more than aimless rambling. Like the books are good, but they're filled with so many words that ultimately add up to nothing that it feels like GRRM was paid by the letter."

Also, here are some articles

http://mashable.com/2016/05/16/thrones- ... P5htJ5Cuqn
https://newrepublic.com/minutes/133452/ ... -set-dorne

Season 5 has problems; but anyone saying Feast and Dance are great are kidding themselves

[Lord Revan]

I would say that the series writers and possibly George R.R. Martin as well don't know how to write a storyline that reaches a natural conclution while having a potential for further storylines, thus we got tons of (semi-)pointless sidestories and storylines that don't seem to follow the "rules" set for the story previously like The Hound and Arya surviving their injuries even though previously people had died of much less serious injuries and remained dead if not ressurected on-camera as a plot point.

[Guardsman Bass]

I liked the fAegon plot and the Dornish storyline in Books 4 and 5, honestly. And I definitely do not think the show is better - the show completely misses the thematic importance of some of the main characters (particularly Stannis), and has had a tendency to throw in dumb stuff for no reason. Basically everything that's happened with Essos in the show is a pale shadow of what it is in the books.

But this is getting side-tracked from the topic of the show.

Like I was so pissed off that the books essentially don't show Stannis's fight with Ramsey, it just ends with a note to Jon that he lost.

You don't seriously trust a letter from Ramsay Snow wherein he's deliberately trying to bait Jon, right? I'm 100% certain that the Boltons have not defeated Stannis in the books - in fact, I'm pretty sure Stannis is going to take Winterfell.

[The Vortex Empire]

I liked the fAegon plot and the Dornish storyline in Books 4 and 5, honestly. And I definitely do not think the show is better - the show completely misses the thematic importance of some of the main characters (particularly Stannis), and has had a tendency to throw in dumb stuff for no reason. Basically everything that's happened with Essos in the show is a pale shadow of what it is in the books.

But this is getting side-tracked from the topic of the show.

Like I was so pissed off that the books essentially don't show Stannis's fight with Ramsey, it just ends with a note to Jon that he lost.

You don't seriously trust a letter from Ramsay Snow wherein he's deliberately trying to bait Jon, right? I'm 100% certain that the Boltons have not defeated Stannis in the books - in fact, I'm pretty sure Stannis is going to take Winterfell.

Not to mention that in one of TWOW sample chapters, Stannis makes it pretty clear that he has a plan for smashing the Freys and straight up tells Justin Massey that he might hear that Stannis is dead but to keep foghting if he does. Dude is going to fake his defeat and disguise his army as the Frey army to infiltrate Winterfell and slaughter the Boltons in the night.

Considering we know Stannis is going to burn Shireen at some point in the books, and he is currently about to fight the Freys and make the final march to Winterfell while Shireen is like 800 miles away at the Wall, I'd say it's absolutely certain he's going to take Winterfell. Shireen is getting burned after the Wall comes down and the Others besiege Winterfell.

[Knife]

What would be the point to radically diverge from what the show is doing if Martin ever writes this stuff, besides fan service?

[Guardsman Bass]

Oh, I think the show definitely has a right to carve its own path, and I still greatly enjoy it. I just don't think it's as good as the books, after factoring in that stuff in the show is going to diverge from the books simply because of the issue of production costs, different medium, etc.

[Crazedwraith]

What would be the point to radically diverge from what the show is doing if Martin ever writes this stuff, besides fan service?

Well not being shite from the sounds of things. And Dorne, the iron islands and the riverlands are already very different from the books anyway.

[Knife]

Oh, I think the show definitely has a right to carve its own path, and I still greatly enjoy it. I just don't think it's as good as the books, after factoring in that stuff in the show is going to diverge from the books simply because of the issue of production costs, different medium, etc.

Oh sure, I get that, when the book has XYZ that the show can't do realistically. But since those books don't exist, what would be the reason to radically diverge? It is the opposite of what we typically talk about why a show radically changed from the book. Of course some things will be different but to not kill off a major character and have him do other things is simple the thing that people complain about when it's something changed from book to show.

Well not being shite from the sounds of things. And Dorne, the iron islands and the riverlands are already very different from the books anyway.

Well you not liking it is subjective and in the end changing it to something you like is the a fore mentioned fan service. And yes, they condensed Dorne but I don't think that makes it a radical change and more of the time and money constraints Guardsman was talking about above. And sometimes those type of changes are not bad, while I'm a fan of the books, the changes to Harrenhal and having Arya interact with Tywin in the show was better in my opinion than in the books. And considering that a lot of what is and isn't in the Riverlands hasn't been written yet, I'll reserve judgment. I do agree that in the show it was rushed and served little purpose than to take Jammie out of Kingslanding and stall or reverse any character growth he's had.

[Darth Yan]

It feels like introducing new details halfway through the story. Harry Potter didn't do too much of that. We got some new characters but the main focus was still the struggle with Voldy. Now we have to do the white walkers....oh and fake aegon.

You could have taken all the important shit in both AFFC and ADWD and make a single book. There was a lot of needless bloat in both.

[FaxModem1]

One thing to remember is that character shields do exist for people in Game of Thrones, they just belong to the villains. Littlefinger keeps rising in power with seemingly no or very small setbacks. Ramsay Bolton continues to be a monster to everyone and only gains more power. The Mountain was killed by poisoning, but continues to rain havoc as a killer due to experiments by Master Frankenstein. The Hound survived broken bones, bleeding out and falling off a cliff so that he can continue murdering people. Cersei is still in power, even if she is fighting for it.

In Game of Thrones, you are safe as long as you're a murdering bastard. At least for at least three seasons, just ask Hottest.

[Simon_Jester]

What would be the point to radically diverge from what the show is doing if Martin ever writes this stuff, besides fan service?

Because he already has? Or rather, because the show has radically diverged from him.

The false Aegon doesn't exist in "what the show is doing." Victarion Greyjoy doesn't exist in "what the show is doing," and Euron's actions in the show are only vaguely lined up with the combined actions of Victarion and Euron in the plot. Events in Dorne have been radically different in important ways.

Events in the north have gone drastically differently in the show in ways that simply cannot happen in Winds of Winter, because of changes that have already happened. Such as Jeyne Poole being sent North by the Lannisters as a fake 'Arya Stark' and married to Ramsey, rather than having Littlefinger send Sansa. Such as Mance Rayder still being alive and actively interfering in events, which appears not to be the case in the show.

Martin cannot force events in Winds of Winter to line up with what the show is doing in Season 6 without grossly distorting the book's plot. The two storylines have already diverged in ways that are having butterfly-effect consequences. It may well be that both stories come to broadly similar conclusions (say, Our Heroes uniting in the North to make a stand against the Others with dragonfire and armies and so on). But they can't follow the same paths to that conclusion.

One thing to remember is that character shields do exist for people in Game of Thrones, they just belong to the villains. Littlefinger keeps rising in power with seemingly no or very small setbacks. Ramsay Bolton continues to be a monster to everyone and only gains more power. The Mountain was killed by poisoning, but continues to rain havoc as a killer due to experiments by Master Frankenstein. The Hound survived broken bones, bleeding out and falling off a cliff so that he can continue murdering people. Cersei is still in power, even if she is fighting for it.

In Game of Thrones, you are safe as long as you're a murdering bastard. At least for at least three seasons, just ask Hottest.

So to summarize, character shields are seen on:
1) Ramsay Snow, styling himself Bolton.
2) Littlefinger
3) Gregor Clegane.
4) Sandor Clegane.
5) Cersei.

I reply...

1) Ramsay definitely has a character shield, and people hate it. He's an annoying character and people have been complaining for years that he gets away with ridiculous random things that are unrealistic and make no logical sense. Also that his enemies inexplicably wind up turning into complete morons and weaklings every time he turns around. And this is precisely because it is not normal in Game of Thrones for characters to have preternatural luck and ability to survive unsurvivable setbacks or take unsurvivable risks. Ramsay would be much less jarring in a setting where it was normal for such larger-than-life, luckier-than-life characters to exist. And indeed, Ramsay is much less 'super' in the books- he doesn't always get his way, his father seems quite capable of restraining him, and his sociopathic wickedness is (correctly) shown alienating potential allies.

2) Littlefinger has taken tremendous pains to avoid ever being in a position where anyone would bring lethal force to bear on him. He's waxed in power and influence because he is a very, very careful plotter, who knows exactly when to switch sides, carefully maintains plausible deniability, and maneuvers so as to break up any hostile alliance of potential enemies. That's not the same as character shielding. That is, in fact, exactly the sort of person who becomes highly successful without character shields in real life.

3) Ser Gregor is, by all appearances, an undead monstrosity whose corpse walks the Earth after he died in agony from a poisoned wound he suffered as a consequence of someone avenging one of his past atrocities. That is an awfully big shot that got in through his 'character shield' if he has one. In the books it is unclear if he even has a head anymore. So I would hesitate to say that he has in any way escaped the negative consequences of his actions (a protracted, agonizing death is a high price).

4) Sandor Clegane's suddenly recovering from horrible injuries in the show is another thing people complain about- the exact point here is that it is not the norm in the show previously. As with Ramsay, the proposition here is not 'no character shielding exists.' It is '

5) Cersei has lost her father, has had her brother turn against her savagely, has lost two of her three children (in the show, one), has been publicly humiliated almost as badly as can be imagined, and is beset by political enemies. Her relationship with the one other person in the world she truly loves is on the rocks, and her court is in the process of barely holding itself together. Again, that's not character shielding- she may not be experiencing the full consequences that might result from her actions, but she's certainly experiencing consequences. And when she makes mistakes she tends to wind up paying for them.

[Elfdart]

I hope Varys made it past the enemy fleet.