Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[TheHammer]

The Mountain fight scene utterly reinforced my argument that the guy could be beaten by a well-skilled fighter. If only Oberyn had not been so stupid....

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

He's a tank and only needs to hit once, armored or not. That's why Oberyn was actually smart to forgo heavy armor for the sake of speed, of course he wasn't so smart in allowing the Mountain to linger on rather than finishing the job.

[Thanas]

The Mountain fight scene utterly reinforced my argument that the guy could be beaten by a well-skilled fighter. If only Oberyn had not been so stupid....

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

He's a tank and only needs to hit once, armored or not. That's why Oberyn was actually smart to forgo heavy armor for the sake of speed, of course he wasn't so smart in allowing the Mountain to linger on rather than finishing the job.

Indeed. Yank the spear out, jab him three times more, done.

BTW: headache

[The Grim Squeaker]

The Mountain fight scene utterly reinforced my argument that the guy could be beaten by a well-skilled fighter. If only Oberyn had not been so stupid....

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

Point 1: Even Bron said as much - (That he would have stood a decent chance).
The mountain was also likely used to fighting either other armored, slow knights, or masses of peasants most likely - Both scenarios in which slow, heavy chops are less of an issue.
Point 2: Even against someone very well suited to fighting him, with a style that danced around him (well, somersaulted), and who was an extremely skilled an experienced fighter, the mountain still barely lost. (He chopped through Oberyn's spear halfway through - in a real fight, that would have likely ended it).
Point 3: Yeah, Barristan would have likely killed him. But not necessarily. (Barristan could not somersault over chops, and he wouldn't be able to match the Mountain blow for blow as The Hound did. I'd still bet on him, but it's not that easy).

Keep also in mind, how freakishly strong the mountain is. Smashing out all the teeth in a man's mouth in one punch? Caving in a skull like a ripe fruit? (It wasn't conveyed well earlier in the fight due to Oberyn somehow not getting hammered down when they came blade to spear a few times).

[SCRawl]

Keep also in mind, how freakishly strong the mountain is. Smashing out all the teeth in a man's mouth in one punch? Caving in a skull like a ripe fruit? (It wasn't conveyed well earlier in the fight due to Oberyn somehow not getting hammered down when they came blade to spear a few times).

Oberyn had leverage (thanks to a longer weapon) and was using his spear two-handed (of course), whereas Ser Gregor was using his sword one-handed. That definitely can help to even the strength differential.

[Thanas]

The Mountain fight scene utterly reinforced my argument that the guy could be beaten by a well-skilled fighter. If only Oberyn had not been so stupid....

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

Point 1: Even Bron said as much - (That he would have stood a decent chance).
The mountain was also likely used to fighting either other armored, slow knights, or masses of peasants most likely - Both scenarios in which slow, heavy chops are less of an issue.

The myth of slow knights is just something that will not die, most probably due to lots of people never having worn platemail and thinking it slows you down a great deal. It does not.

Point 2: Even against someone very well suited to fighting him, with a style that danced around him (well, somersaulted), and who was an extremely skilled an experienced fighter, the mountain still barely lost. (He chopped through Oberyn's spear halfway through - in a real fight, that would have likely ended it).

Oberyn showboated through the whole fight. He'd have won without it easily.

Keep also in mind, how freakishly strong the mountain is. Smashing out all the teeth in a man's mouth in one punch? Caving in a skull like a ripe fruit? (It wasn't conveyed well earlier in the fight due to Oberyn somehow not getting hammered down when they came blade to spear a few times).

Meh. I'd bet dollars to donuts that the vast majority of RL middle age court champions could take on such a bad fighter of the hound and win. Heck, the mountain's sword usage was pretty bad. Heck, it looked like he did not even know the most elementary guards, relying on pure strength alone. Even modern masters would probably win.

[Scrib]

The Mountain fight scene utterly reinforced my argument that the guy could be beaten by a well-skilled fighter. If only Oberyn had not been so stupid....

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

For me it reinforces the problems with adaptations and their choreography compared to the original work.

Since we had this discussion before we ever saw the Mountain on the show I don't see how it changes the book arguments that were made then. For the show's portrayal though: I suppose you win.

Although it's a hollow victory since Barristan on the show has also done fuck-all. He's just as hyped as the Mountain, but we all know how meaningful that is.The fact that he's an old man probably makes it worse. On the field that matters- where Barristan is allegedly better- nothing has been decided.

Also: Am I the only one that skipped the Grey Worm shit? I'm sorry, I don't see why I should torture myself emotionally for a narrative cul-de-sac. Their relationship would be tragic at best. And I don't really need more tragedy. That said...it was one of the better excuses to show us some boobs.

[Napoleon the Clown]

Okay, so I discussed this idea with the wife last night while watching the episode... What if "castration" is a mistranslation regarding the Unsullied? Maybe they're circumcised rather than castrated and people who have translated got the wrong words. Just a wild speculation on the matter.

[Vympel]

Okay, so I discussed this idea with the wife last night while watching the episode... What if "castration" is a mistranslation regarding the Unsullied? Maybe they're circumcised rather than castrated and people who have translated got the wrong words. Just a wild speculation on the matter.

Yeah ... no. Leaving aside that we have the benefit of third-person subtitles when Kraznys is talking, we know Unsullied don't rape.

Too bad the Night Watch don't have that green napalm. Or Stannis and his newly bought mercenaries on speed-dial. Not only is Ygriite unlikely to kiss and make up with Jon Snow (no matter how well he eats pussy on his first try), but she doesn't look like she'll settle for shooting him in the leg this time either. She and thousands of other Wildlings. The Watch only has 100 men -led by an asshole.

I might have said this already, but the Night's Watch has more like ~700 men. The problem is 600 of them are at Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and the Shadow Tower. I wish the show would remind us about that - we know those are the other two occupied Night's Watch castles (to the extreme east and west, respectively) and Maester Aemon tells Tyrion back in Season 1 that there are "less than a thousand" of them now. If you take into account the losses suffered by Mormont's men in the Great Ranging (i.e. everyone dead except Jon, Grenn, Edd and Sam) then 700 sounds about right (i.e. ~200 men lost on the ranging, 100 still at Castle Black, 300 each at the other two castles).

EDIT: the show wiki says 300 men were sent out - 200 from Castle Black and 100 from the Shadow Tower, but there's no reference for that number. I can't recall.

I mean, the Mountain's opening attack was so mind-boggingly stupid....his whole fighting style was swinging and missing....Ugh. Barristan would have eaten him for breakfast.

Book Barristan, anyway, Informed Attributed Show Barristan has done nothing so far. Apart from stabbing a manticore. We all know that if/when we see him fight, the choreography won't be in accordance with proper principles of fencing. No one's is. I just go with it.

[Elfdart]

Okay, so I discussed this idea with the wife last night while watching the episode... What if "castration" is a mistranslation regarding the Unsullied? Maybe they're circumcised rather than castrated and people who have translated got the wrong words. Just a wild speculation on the matter.

Given that Grey Worm has a man's voice rather than a child's, and seems to have other secondary sex characteristics, I'm assuming the Unsullied were castrated after puberty. In that case they are quite capable of having boners and using them; they just won't have the kind of aggressive sex drive men with functioning balls would.

This of course assumes that the voices and other characteristics of the Unsullied are depicted that way on purpose and aren't just an oversight by the filmmakers, or a matter of not being able to find a bunch of castrato actors and extras. Or being willing to dub high-pitched voices for them -which could be pretty creepy now that I think of it: A bunch of soldiers charging into battle with war cries sounding like the Vienna Boys' Choir.

If they really did chop off his "pillar" along with the "stones", then goddamn it dangling Missandei (who is not only stunning, but actually likes him) in front of Grey Worm is fucking cruel.



Must... not... look...

[Scrib]

Meh, dead horse. I'll let it die.

[Irbis]

He's a tank and only needs to hit once, armored or not.

To wit:



And the book version if anything was even stronger.

The myth of slow knights is just something that will not die, most probably due to lots of people never having worn platemail and thinking it slows you down a great deal. It does not.

It might not 'slow you down a great deal' but it still is a weight adding to your reaction time and tiredness. Oberyn had a point, any plate capable of even slowing down hits from the Mountain would be far too heavy to dodge his strikes.

[jollyreaper]

From everything I've read about proper sword fighting, it's not very cinematic, a fight is usually over in seconds. Many kills happen with the first blow, the rest on the counter, a few on the third strike. And that is often just too short for what writers and the audience are looking for.

Hell, sources I read talking about the Middle Ages said that swords were mostly for the nobility. Metal was expensive. Your average feudal levy is going to battle with repurposed farm tools. Spear points were easier to forge than swords so that would be more common than anything. Against plate, swords were less than ideal so bashing weapons that could break limbs inside the armor were preferred.

Still, for a compromise between realism and drama, this fight was fine. The Viper had speed and skill. The Mountain was about power, never finesse. If the books say otherwise, no matter, they sold this take on screen quite well. The viper was dancing with a cobra and any mistake could be fatal. He mastered the fight and could have won outright. That he had another agenda meant he had to take serious risks that ended up getting him killed. I think the only thing that really disappointed me is the season 1 mountain was the scariest. Wish he was still on the show. The current one is a good replacement but not as scary looking. (I say this comfortably not in front of him.)

And that kill was brutal beyond all reason. Yikes.

[TheHammer]

Presuming the mountain also died from his wounds, i wonder if there is some sort of legal loophole in the trial by combat that is going to allow Tyrion to escape the chopping block. Or if Jamie or perhaps even Varys decide to intervene on his behalf in some way.

[Iroscato]

Presuming the mountain also died from his wounds, i wonder if there is some sort of legal loophole in the trial by combat that is going to allow Tyrion to escape the chopping block. Or if Jamie or perhaps even Varys decide to intervene on his behalf in some way.

I really doubt there's a loophole, the Mountain was definitely still alive by the end of the fight and Oberyn...well, looked like a strawberry trifle. Plus Tywin enthusiastically and without hesitation sentenced him to death, he was certainly sure of the outcome.

[SCRawl]

Presuming the mountain also died from his wounds, i wonder if there is some sort of legal loophole in the trial by combat that is going to allow Tyrion to escape the chopping block. Or if Jamie or perhaps even Varys decide to intervene on his behalf in some way.

I really doubt there's a loophole, the Mountain was definitely still alive by the end of the fight and Oberyn...well, looked like a strawberry trifle. Plus Tywin enthusiastically and without hesitation sentenced him to death, he was certainly sure of the outcome.

Yes, the outcome is clear: one of the champions is dead, the other isn't. Even if Ser Gregor only lived another five seconds, he clearly outlived Oberyn, and so the will of the gods is made clear.

Tywin's enthusiasm to end the affair might have been to ensure that there were no more public confessions which might implicate him.

[Iroscato]

Heh...I keep having GoT dreams, mostly about Mance Rayder and his advancing army!
I burned through all 4 seasons in a few weeks until I caught up, so it's small wonder I'm a tiny bit obsessed with it at the moment.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Book Barristan, anyway, Informed Attributed Show Barristan has done nothing so far. Apart from stabbing a manticore. We all know that if/when we see him fight, the choreography won't be in accordance with proper principles of fencing. No one's is. I just go with it.

Yeah, I think it's a bit unfair to call out the Viper/Mountain scene in particular. GoT is just as guilty as every other cinematic fantasy setting ever of having super cliched and unrealistic combat. As jollyreaper said:

From everything I've read about proper sword fighting, it's not very cinematic, a fight is usually over in seconds. Many kills happen with the first blow, the rest on the counter, a few on the third strike. And that is often just too short for what writers and the audience are looking for.

Super drawn out duels just don't happen very often. I mean, it isn't quite analogous to real combat, but Olympic fencing can be one of the most boring events to watch, because each phrase lasts like 3 seconds. You almost never see dramatic and prolonged exchanges of parries/ripostes/etc. except at lower levels of competition. Granted, part of this is because the players are coached to manipulate the right of way system (also, there's no penalty to being hit so long as your hit had preferential right of way, which isn't the case in real combat), but the point remains that any skilled fighter is going to land some sort of blow pretty quickly. A real duel between two skilled combatants out to kill each other would either be over very quickly, or involve a series of quick flurries of activity that leave small injuries until one or the other is too tired to properly defend themselves. Not very cinematic.

EDIT: It is funny how GoT, for a series that gets so much praise at bucking standard fantasy story-telling tropes, tends to so whole-heartedly embrace other ahistorical fantasy cliches.

[Thanas]

Heheheheh

[Pelranius]

Heheheheh

Heh. Is that because Jack Gleeson's contract is too long?

[The Vortex Empire]

Oh, how I long for a series where the combatants stay in formation rather than immediately breaking up into a bunch of one on one duels.

[Scrib]

Oh, how I long for a series where the combatants stay in formation rather than immediately breaking up into a bunch of one on one duels.

You're free to wish, however in this case, with the lack of discipline on both sides mentioned explicitly throughout the series and the wildlings coming through haphazardly the show might get a pass.

This is where the book!Thenns might have come in handy but we...lost those.

But if you're really feeling the itch...you could watch the first four minutes of Rome. Granted it lasts about fifty seconds but beggars, choosers etc.

[jollyreaper]

This episode was surprisingly disappointing given that it was so well-shot and dramatic. I think it's due to the fourth season being so good, Snow's storyline being the least interesting, the fighting falling into LOTR conventions and the Wall itself making no sense.

I know we have a human history of building ridiculous fortifications such as the Great Wall of China, Maginot Line, etc, but have they ever really proven effective? The advantage of fortifications is that they multiply the effectiveness of your troops. The defender always has an advantage and proper fortifications can allow a limited number to hold off a multitude. And when you have a proper chokepoint, when there's no alternative route, the attacker has to accept the fight or go home. But when your fortification turns out to be a giant wall, you get a breach in one place and you're sunk. There's no defense in depth with the Wall here, no falling back to secondary lines of defense.

The Wall isn't even really all that effective in the first place if Wildlings can raid over it all the time. Maybe it has some special magical property for keeping out the ice zombies? It is a magical construct so there might be a mystical justification beyond just being a very big pile of ice and rock.

Setting aside those misgivings, the wildling attack seemed a bit strange, too. They're making a frontal attack on the strongest castle in the entire wall. Now I need to go back and check on the tunnel situation. I believe there's a castle over each tunnel and all the other tunnels are blocked? Castle Black has the strongest defense and the only working tunnel? And I'm guessing only a fraction of the army would have the strength and skill to scale the wall, the bulk of the forces would need a tunnel to make it to the other side? Are the castles connected atop the wall? I would think there would have to be lines of communication but this would also mean that an attacker could take a weaker castle and then try to force their way across to a stronger one.

It's kind of useless to compare historic castle-stormings to the Wall since the dimensions are a bit crazy. There's no knocking the walls down here, they're just too thick. But those tunnels... The gate was always the most troublesome part of a real castle because a castle you couldn't get in or out of is a fairly useless thing but the gate puts a great big weakness there. That's usually why special attention is placed there to make it extra difficult to breach and with extra positions for defenders. It would seem like there should be an option for fortifying these tunnels that could take a few days to setup and wouldn't be all that easy to defeat in the heat of combat, giants or no giants.

Where is Mance getting 100k men that far north? If it's the land of always winter, what the hell are they eating? They wouldn't have any agriculture, they'd be pretty much stuck with foraging. In antiquity it used to be possible for what are essentially nomads to put together a useful fighting force. The Dothraki are basically the Mongols. I guess the Wildlings would be Ice Mongols? There's not really any historic analogue that I'm aware of. When you are far enough north that you don't get a proper summer, if it's always winter, you're pretty much talking the Arctic Circle. That's the domain of the Inuit. They can make a living on the ice but they're not forming hordes.

So, am I missing something? Does this part of the story make any sense? I've got the feeling it doesn't and I should just concentrate on the other parts instead. Those remain great.

[Elfdart]

You're taking the numbers given as gospel when Mance Raider has every reason to exaggerate, and it's not like Jon Snow actually counted them. Besides, in real life it's difficult, if not impossible to figure out how large armies were in Medieval battles. For example, almost nothing is known about Bosworth Field and that was one of the most important battles in English history.

The only number that aroused my curiosity is the number of defenders at Castle Black. I thought it was around 100 men, yet it looked as though at least that many were killed in this episode, since they were dropping left and right and there was no mention of reinforcements.

[streetad]

All the wildling villages are deserted - this is a mass migration, rather than an army. Mance is bringing women, children, the elderly, the sick, everyone.

The figure of 100,000 presumably includes all these people, and is almost certainly an exaggeration by Mance, given that the most powerful lords in the more populous south can only raise a fraction of that amount.

I agree that the nights watch should be down into negative figures by now given the amount that died in this episode though. And presumably Jon is planning to kill Mance with that blacksmith's hammer...

[Vympel]

That episode was fucking boss.

1. I was genuinely surprised when Sam and Jon were talking about releasing Ghost and I had no idea what they were talking about until DIREWOLF MOTHERFUCKER

2. Jon using Karl's spit-in-the-fucker's-face trick to end the Magnar of Thenn with a fucking hammer was boss

3. WALL SCYTHE

4. Grenn went out like a badass, though it would've been nice to see it

5. Did Sam kill the Warg? I think he did

6. Alliser Thorne was epic this episode. I'm so glad they didn't kill him off

7. Loved how Jon dealt with Tormund Giantsbane

Just a great episode all around.

So, am I missing something?

Yes. I'll say no more, suffice to say none of your criticisms are left unanswered by the actual situation.