GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

[Thanas]

I don't disagree with anything else, but if given large square or round shields they might be able to form a variant of the Byzantine fulcrum, which is a formation designed to withstand cavalry charges, especially that of light cavalry. It essentially would mean them locking shields, with the first rank kneeling, the second kneeling over them and the third rank being braced against them (with shields over the first two), with the other ranks being pressing against them and throwing light spears, slingshot etc. against the charging infantry. This formation is pretty much unbreakable for anything like light cavalry as long as the front ranks are disciplined enough to hold and not break formation, especially if other tools like crow's-feet are used.

Late Roman infantry tactics, focussed on concentrated defence and concentrated strike power, would be ideal for the unsullied. So at least in theory they should be able to be of some worth, but only if used in combined arms (which they do not use).

[Guardsman Bass]

It looks like they're casting Vargo Hoat after all.

[Chirios]

Pretty much, yeah. There is simply no way the things described there could exist for so long because people are neither robots nor idiots and someone would have kicked the morons down long ago.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

To be honest, this happens a lot in Martin's books and it gets worse the more you go on. In the first book it was only the Dothraki, which were annoying but the rest of the book made sense so you could ignore it. Then it was the Ironborn. After that it was Slavers Bay and the Unsullied. Then it was a supposed military expert deciding it would be a good idea to march during winter and through extremely heavy snows.

[Crazedwraith]

*Shrugs* That last bit fits Stannis. His military actions that we know about we holding Storm's End, which was just stubbornness and then naval actions against Dragonstone and the Iron Islands. Sustained land warfare may not be his forte.

[fgalkin]

I don't disagree with anything else, but if given large square or round shields they might be able to form a variant of the Byzantine fulcrum, which is a formation designed to withstand cavalry charges, especially that of light cavalry. It essentially would mean them locking shields, with the first rank kneeling, the second kneeling over them and the third rank being braced against them (with shields over the first two), with the other ranks being pressing against them and throwing light spears, slingshot etc. against the charging infantry. This formation is pretty much unbreakable for anything like light cavalry as long as the front ranks are disciplined enough to hold and not break formation, especially if other tools like crow's-feet are used.

Late Roman infantry tactics, focussed on concentrated defence and concentrated strike power, would be ideal for the unsullied. So at least in theory they should be able to be of some worth, but only if used in combined arms (which they do not use).

This would make sense, except Martin sabotages that as well:

If the Unsullied felt the heat, however, they gave no hint of it. They could be made of brick themselves, the way they stand there. A thousand had been marched out of their barracks for her inspection; drawn up in ten ranks of one hundred before the fountain and its great bronze harpy, they stood stiffly at attention, their stony eyes fixed straight ahead. They wore nought but white linen clouts knotted about their loins, and conical bronze helms topped with a sharpened spike a foot tall. Kraznys had commanded them to lay down their spears and shields, and doff their swordbelts and quilted tunics, so the Queen of Westeros might better inspect the lean hardness of their bodies.

I suppose the spikes may have some use deflecting projectiles, but they also make any variation of the Testudo impossible.

That, and the fact that they are sold by the hundreds, nowhere near enough to make a sufficiently deep formation.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

I suppose the spikes may have some use deflecting projectiles, but they also make any variation of the Testudo impossible.

That, and the fact that they are sold by the hundreds, nowhere near enough to make a sufficiently deep formation.

They are used as stiffing forces for conventional armies as watchmen and as persona guards. No one expects to face off against 20,000 Unsullied in battle by themselves. Kind of nice to have a thousand obedient neuters to guard stuff or set up straggler lines.

Fgalkin are you so focused on great masses of unsullied soldiers your ignoring the hundreds of much more useful roles having utterly loyal soldiers who can't feel pain and will obey any command?

[fgalkin]

Yes I would as they are of strictly limited utility. They are not armored knights whose involvement on the battlefield may make or break a battle. They are infantry that is good for, at best, guarding the army commander (except we know that Unsullied go soft and fat away from Astapor). Yet, everyone keeps treating them as if they're this unbeatable army. I mean, Dany thinks she can take Westeros with them and people feared attacking Astapor because of its Unsullied garrison.

Also, you are wrong in that at least one city- Qohor- uses the Unsullied exclusively for their army. So yes, when attacking it, you may expect to face them in battle by themselves.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Y(except we know that Unsullied go soft and fat away from Astapor).

They got fat and soft when integrated with other slaves. They use to sell Unsullied in groups of 10 but don't anymore and now only sell by the 100 because ten of them have to much contact with non-unsullied slaves.

As for getting fat, it's pointed out, being snipped and slaves the only real pleasure they can enjoy is food since they can't drink (Shade of the evening which they drink to kill their pain receptors leaves them intolerant to booze somehow... cause magic fuck if I know)

And I remember Qohor's city watch is 100% unsullied not it's military.

[Vympel]

In fact, let's look at the account of the battle that establishes their reputation:

This scenario is literally impossible. 3000 Unsullied in a square, say, 10 deep (anything less would have trouble holding a charge with their light spears) is 300 men to a side. That's a front of 150 meters at the most. There is literally no place for 12 thousand dead horses around them.

Even leaving that aside, the Dothraki, instead of outflanking them, keeping back and tearing them apart with bows, or just going around them and sacking the city anyways, or using literally ANY advantage cavalry has over infantry, keep charging head-on For Honor until they're all dead. They actually manage to break them (600 Unsullied is not enough to form a proper square, and at 12k horsemen dead, there won't be a single unbroken spear left), but instead they withdraw and surrender. What are they, fucking Minbari?

This scenario is so bloody ludicrous I have no words for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Remember though that GRRM is a big fan of the "unreliable narrator" principal. There is no guarantee that the numbers given in that story are accurate.

Also, I posted in the casting thread - Vargo Hoat is being cast

[Guardsman Bass]

I think the whole "Battle of Qohor" story is heavily exaggerated. It happened four hundred years before the events in the books, and the numbers - "3000 Unsullied versus 50,000 Dothraki" - makes me think it's like the "300 Spartans versus 200,000 Persians" myth. Not to mention that the Dothraki in the story are fighting in a very un-Dothraki way.

If they really were that fantastic against the Dothraki, you'd expect every major city in Essos exposed to Dothraki khalasars to have a couple thousand of them, except for Bravos. Instead, all we've seen of them outside of Slaver's Bay besides Qohor's Guard are in guard roles, like guarding Illyrio's mansion in A Game of Thrones.

[Vympel]

From westeros.org's So Spake Martin collection:-

Oh, and while I remember it - how big was Ser Stafford Lannister's host in ACoK, anyway? (I and Ran debated whether it was 10 or 20 thousand, respectively, just to find out that the number isn't really mentioned in the books at all. ;o) )

Even in real life, estimating the size of medieval armies was always tricky. Try researching how many people fought at Agincourt or Crecy, and you will get a dozen different numbers. Why should Oxcross be any clearer?

And Oxcross was contemporary to the events of the books - who knows how inflated or distorted the story about the Unsullied and Dothraki has gotten.

[Thanas]

This would make sense, except Martin sabotages that as well:

If the Unsullied felt the heat, however, they gave no hint of it. They could be made of brick themselves, the way they stand there. A thousand had been marched out of their barracks for her inspection; drawn up in ten ranks of one hundred before the fountain and its great bronze harpy, they stood stiffly at attention, their stony eyes fixed straight ahead. They wore nought but white linen clouts knotted about their loins, and conical bronze helms topped with a sharpened spike a foot tall. Kraznys had commanded them to lay down their spears and shields, and doff their swordbelts and quilted tunics, so the Queen of Westeros might better inspect the lean hardness of their bodies.

I suppose the spikes may have some use deflecting projectiles, but they also make any variation of the Testudo impossible.

Well, the fulcrum is not really a testudo and the helms would not interfere with it per se. I will agree though that a foot long spikes is way, way overdoing it and completely unlike anything that happened in real life with the armies of the levante.

That, and the fact that they are sold by the hundreds, nowhere near enough to make a sufficiently deep formation.

300 are enough to make a fulcrum that can resist a lot - a fulcrum composed of 600 franks for example was able to hold off 2000 charging Goth cavalrymen during the Justinian conquest of Italy.

Against undisciplined light cavalry, they should be able to win out. However, going up against the combined arms of westeros while not having any cavalry or archers themselves.....pretty bad odds there.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Was that not covered in the book?

Yep covered in Google Books, here's the relevant section
http://books.google.com/books?id=rIj5x- ... &q&f=false

So yes Dothraki pride leads them to charge a spear wall over and over because they are infantry fit only to be ridden down.
Yes it's silly, again Captain Planet level.

Uhhh...that's exactly what I quoted above? That's my point, though. The only reason the Unsullied got their reputation is that the Dothraki are Klingons on Horses.

How the Mongol knockoffs get their reputation for fearsomeness is beyond me (I mean, really. Unlike the Mongols, they have no siege weapons. What's to stop people from simply shutting their gates and waiting until they all starve and go away?).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

1. Better bowmanship than the Mongols. (The Mongols were exceptional for their ride+shoot backwards ability). The Dothrakhi have some sort of special bow second only to Dragonbone with an extremely long range. (I lack the quote, I recall it being somewhat better than an English Longbow..while shot by a man riding).
2. The below-mentioned raid tactics - they don'tbase their tactics around smashing fortified cities, but around smashing, pillaging and burning everything else. (Clegane/Tywin style).
3. Apparently the Dothrakhi screamers are very, very effective psychologically.
4. The Khalassars are very large forces, especially compared to Whesterosi armies. (Which have a tiny core of knights, compared to peasants with spears and swords - who would piss their britches at a horse mounted screamer).

[Vympel]

“Now,” the knight said, “I am less certain. They are better riders than any knight, utterly fearless, and their bows outrange ours. In the Seven Kingdoms, most archers fight on foot, from behind a shieldwall or a barricade of sharpened stakes. The Dothraki fire from horseback, charging or retreating, it makes no matter, they are full as deadly … and there are so many of them, my lady. Your lord husband alone counts forty thousand mounted warriors in his khalasar.”

“Is that truly so many?”

“Your brother Rhaegar brought as many men to the Trident,” Ser Jorah admitted, “but of that number, no more than a tenth were knights. The rest were archers, freeriders, and foot soldiers armed with spears and pikes. When Rhaegar fell, many threw down their weapons and fled the field. How long do you imagine such a rabble would stand against the charge of forty thousand screamers howling for blood? How well would boiled leather jerkins and mailed shirts protect them when the arrows fall like rain?”

Question is what bows in Westeros Ser Jorah is referring to.

[Thanas]

1. Better bowmanship than the Mongols. (The Mongols were exceptional for their ride+shoot backwards ability).

Meh. That tactic is not as exceptional as you think - there is a reason it is called the parthian shot and why it was so very common among light horse archers.


The Dothraki are more raiding threats than a real battle force. If they take women and children with them they will merely be a very large, slow and starving raiding force.

It is also worth noting that when they had the opportunity to use their bows against massed infantry (unsullied) they chose instead to charge at them, likely indicating that against large shields their bows are not that useful.

[Vympel]

Just thinking out loud, I don't think a Dothraki khalasar would ever be a threat to Seven Kingdoms had the War of the Five Kings not broken out - sure, Khal Drogo had 40,000 warriors, and Rhaegar had as many at the Battle of the Trident - but under Robert Baratheon they wouldn't have been restricted to 40,000. The Crown Lands, the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands and the Reach could all be relied upon to fight for Robert, - only Dorne would be foolish enough to declare for Daenerys if she landed on Westeros, and it would only be backed up by the Golden Company (the Iron Islands can be assumed to remain neutral).

Drogo would have been crushed - the Seven Kingdoms could've easily put over 200,000 men in the field. And it would've been led by great commanders all - Robert, Ned, Tywin, Stannis, and Randyll Tarly.

[Mr Bean]

Just thinking out loud, I don't think a Dothraki khalasar would ever be a threat to Seven Kingdoms had the War of the Five Kings not broken out - sure, Khal Drogo had 40,000 warriors, and Rhaegar had as many at the Battle of the Trident - but under Robert Baratheon they wouldn't have been restricted to 40,000. The Crown Lands, the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands and the Reach could all be relied upon to fight for Robert, - only Dorne would be foolish enough to declare for Daenerys if she landed on Westeros, and it would only be backed up by the Golden Company (the Iron Islands can be assumed to remain neutral).

Drogo would have been crushed - the Seven Kingdoms could've easily put over 200,000 men in the field. And it would've been led by great commanders all - Robert, Ned, Tywin, Stannis, and Randyll Tarly.

I disagree with you on Tarly as Highgarden is ambitious and your leaving out the other Targ loyalists inside the small council. Littlefinger might support the Targs to aid his own advancement while Varys is an out and out Targ loyalist and has spent decades scheming for this to happen. There's indications from Dance and Storm that Daenerys and Khal Drogo would have landed not just with the Golden Company but several other free companies not to mention the simple fact that I pretty sure had Daenerys landed to stake her claim there would be no one to oppose them in King's Landing.

Your forgetting the Spiders habit of assassination for particular enemies. The Spider is in charge of Intel and if Dany was acutally on ships on her way to Westeros she would land to find every nobleman of note in King's Landing dead. He might miss one or two but it's a simple matter to poison an entire feast. Or simply getting out the faceless men which Varys happens to have their pigeon address.

[Thanas]

Just thinking out loud, I don't think a Dothraki khalasar would ever be a threat to Seven Kingdoms had the War of the Five Kings not broken out - sure, Khal Drogo had 40,000 warriors, and Rhaegar had as many at the Battle of the Trident - but under Robert Baratheon they wouldn't have been restricted to 40,000. The Crown Lands, the Westerlands, the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Stormlands and the Reach could all be relied upon to fight for Robert, - only Dorne would be foolish enough to declare for Daenerys if she landed on Westeros, and it would only be backed up by the Golden Company (the Iron Islands can be assumed to remain neutral).

Drogo would have been crushed - the Seven Kingdoms could've easily put over 200,000 men in the field. And it would've been led by great commanders all - Robert, Ned, Tywin, Stannis, and Randyll Tarly.

Yeah. And I think Drogo knew that - which is why he only acted when personal honour left him no other choice.

Your forgetting the Spiders habit of assassination for particular enemies. The Spider is in charge of Intel and if Dany was acutally on ships on her way to Westeros she would land to find every nobleman of note in King's Landing dead. He might miss one or two but it's a simple matter to poison an entire feast. Or simply getting out the faceless men which Varys happens to have their pigeon address.

Even Vaerys does not have the resources to pay the faceless men for that much and I doubt he can poison an entire feast. Note that he did not do so even when it would suit him.

[Mr Bean]

Even Vaerys does not have the resources to pay the faceless men for that much and I doubt he can poison an entire feast. Note that he did not do so even when it would suit him.

The faceless men only need to kill a very few men that Varys can't reach himself.
And you forget that at the moment Varys self appointed job is keeping the war of the five kings going and making sure those who are likely to resume hostilities are put in charge. His purpose as he sees it is to case strife and division so the kingdoms will welcome the outsider queen to unite them as has already happen once in Westerosi history. He's not a god so things can get out of his hands and a mass poisoning is kind of the thing you can only do once.

But a crossbow in the dark? That's Tyrion, not poor little old Varys work.

[The Grim Squeaker]

That, and as Robert pointed out in the show, there are a LOT of Targeryn loyalists left among the lesser and greater houses (Tyrell, Dorn, various lesser houses and ambitious lords).


EDIT: Neat. I had no idea the Parthians could do that without stirrups :0. (According to wikipedia at least).
Does anyone know if the Dothrakhi have stirrups?

[Thanas]

Even Vaerys does not have the resources to pay the faceless men for that much and I doubt he can poison an entire feast. Note that he did not do so even when it would suit him.

The faceless men only need to kill a very few men that Varys can't reach himself.
And you forget that at the moment Varys self appointed job is keeping the war of the five kings going and making sure those who are likely to resume hostilities are put in charge.

Sure, but where do you get the idea of "Varys got crazy riches" which would be needed to buy the services of the faceless men for people like Rob, Stannis and everyboy else who is outside of King's Landing?

His purpose as he sees it is to case strife and division so the kingdoms will welcome the outsider queen to unite them as has already happen once in Westerosi history. He's not a god so things can get out of his hands and a mass poisoning is kind of the thing you can only do once.

Mass poisoning is one of the capabilities he has not shown - He might be able to pull it off, but there is no guarantee it will hit everybody as not everybody is eating the same at the same time.

But a crossbow in the dark? That's Tyrion, not poor little old Varys work.

Eh? Where did I refer to that?

[The Yosemite Bear]

So is Joffery just Late Julii/Claudio Emporer mad after just one generation of incest, or would Commodus and Caligulia actually be worse?

[Thanas]

a) It is julii-claudii or julio-claudian
b) Commodus was not one of of the above
c) They did not practice incest (or at least did not have children)
d) There is no Late Julio-claudian emperor.
e) Commodus and Caligula were both at the very least somwhat competent administrators, Joffrey is just mad.

[Mr Bean]

Sure, but where do you get the idea of "Varys got crazy riches" which would be needed to buy the services of the faceless men for people like Rob, Stannis and everyboy else who is outside of King's Landing?

Illyrio Mopatis, you forget Varys is working hand in hand with the richest man in Pentos, the man who can hire an army of sell swords at need because he's playing the long game of a million gold dragons are nothing compared to a united Targ ruled Westeros.

Mass poisoning is one of the capabilities he has not shown - He might be able to pull it off, but there is no guarantee it will hit everybody as not everybody is eating the same at the same time.

There are literally a dozen poisons mentioned in the show. The Tears for example takes a full day before it's effects can be felt. Pycelle has some on him, to poison and entire feast with yes he's going to have to send away. But just because he's never poisoned a mass group of people is no reason to think he can not considering he has access to the entire Red Keep and the entire passage-way system and has the ability to come and go as he wills to. Has over a dozen personalities he can take on at need.

If you seriously think it's beyond his already considerable demonstrated abilities I have to ask why don't you think such a gambit would be beyond him.

Also FYI:So spake Martin says that we saw Varys twice during Dance of Dragons or rather we saw one of his aliases before the end of the book

Eh? Where did I refer to that?

SPOILERS for DANCE of DRAGONS Spoiler

You did not, I'm just mentioning the last time we saw Varys he was busy with a crossbow killing people from the shadows. Specifically he was taking advantage of how Tyrion had killed his father to off Pycell and Kevin to put the Queen back in charge.

[Rogue 9]

There are problems with the Varys as Targaryen loyalist theory.

1.) He reported on Daenerys to Robert, knowing what his reaction to her marriage and pregnancy would be, and sent assassins after her when ordered. It came within a hair's breadth of working, too.

2.) If anyone was likely to start a massive war with the Lannisters and prosecute it in an effective manner, it was Eddard Stark, who Varys did not lift a finger to rescue. (I grant that he may have simply counted on Eddard not being beheaded and sent to the Night's Watch, as was the plan before Joffrey fucked it up, but once sent to the Watch Eddard isn't the sort of man to break his vows and resume his seat at Winterfell.) Robb's reaction may have been predictable, but his success was not, and had the Starks been easily crushed by the Lannisters, as seemed likely before his successful feint against Tywin and victory over Jaime at the Whispering Wood, chaos and general war would have been largely averted. Without the distraction of the Northmen, the (utterly predictable) infighting among the Baratheon brothers would have allowed the Lannisters to contain Stannis after he killed Renly and most of Renly's men went over to King's Landing.

3.) General war wasn't particularly predictable anyway; while strife between the Starks and Lannisters was sure to result from the attempt on Bran, I don't see how Varys could predict that Catelyn Stark would capture Tyrion on the road (since he had nothing to do with either of their movements), prompting the Lannisters to commence devastating the Riverlands.

Obviously Varys is solidly for Daenerys at this point, but if he was all along he had a real funny way of showing it. It seems more likely to me that he's motivated by the stability of the realm, and a Targaryen takeover is the best prospect for that at present, seeing how Cersei and her children are pretty much deranged and no one else stands a real chance of winning the war, while they stand a very good chance of continuing to throw the realm into chaos with the active participation of the de facto rulers. If Varys had simply wanted to destabilize the realm to prepare the way for the Targaryen return, he could have done it a lot sooner simply by telling Robert of Cersei and Jaime's treachery - preferably while one or both is visiting Casterly Rock. Or by assassinating Robert. Or... or... or... The current state of affairs is too largely formed by random chance to be entirely the work of Varys and Illyrio.

I would also suppose he could have been opposed to Viserys taking over (since he was nuts) but switch to the Targaryens after Viserys' death, but the wine merchant assassin kind of throws the wrench into those works; Viserys wasn't killed until later. (Immediately after, in fact, but Varys didn't really have a way to know that; his communications aren't instantaneous.)