Order of the Stick vs Fellowship of the Ring

[Imperial Overlord]

At least in 2nd Ed, I think it's called Greater Contingency, which allows the wizard to pre-emptively "cast" three spells, but have them not take effect until a command word is spoken.

Contingency is nice, but only lasts for days and is horribly expensive to cast. Also, you have to have the right spells prepared, a constant theme in D&D and it can completely bone a caster. A personal example is encountering vampires when expecting drow slavers. It went south at warp speed.

Name the spell that breaks arrows and heats up sword blades. Stoneskin's nice, but not up to the task.

As for sword blades, Heat Metal.

Won't take out sword instantly (several rounds before it gets nasty) and useless against arrows. Gandalf's very rapid counter to the weapons of three skilled warriors is something that's hard to do in D&D because its built around game balance and so is OOTS (otherwise they wouldn't be able to joke about it.)

[Imperial Overlord]

It occurs to me I'm being a little excessive in my demands. D&D wizards can effectively duplicate many of the feats Gandalf performs (some easily, others with considerable difficulty), but for them they have to have the right spells chosen a head of time, luck with the saves and SR, and quickly expend their magical resources.

The question with regard to Gandalf and V is the balrog. No D&D wizard, by the nature of the game, can keep up a prolonged conflict with a physically powerful and magically resistant creature with counter spell abilities. They get their tender, low hp asses handed to them real quick. Breaking the side of a mountain is also beyond the capacity of any of their direct damage dealing spells, although one could Wish it to occur.

The real question is to what degree is Gandalf's claims regarding the fight literally true. A three day spell battle and mountain shattering is way beyond V's capability. Hell, surviving a minute in close proximity to a balrog is beyond him. It's the high water mark of Gandalf the Grey's power (although we are dealing with the even more powerful Gandalf the White).

[Balrog]

Actually the fight with the Balrog lasted longer; they were having a running battle underground for eight days (whilst at the same time being chased by 'unnamed horrors') and then fought for two more atop Zirakzigil, where apparently it got hot enough to vaporize all the snow off the mountaintop (if people need something to calc).

Of course, Gandalf has done other stuff, such as fight a mental battle against Sauron while the two were hundreds, perhaps thousands, of miles away, and his confrontation with the Three Hunters that's already been mentioned.

As an aside, doesn't D&D magic take specific movements and words in order to accomplish? Gandalf's magic seems to work at the speed of thought when he needs it to, perhaps he can get a quick blow in before V can finish his spell casting.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Please, I don't know what games you play, but D&D wizard magic is mostly offensive, with some utility and defensive spells thrown in. D&D magic is like that because you have to choose spells well before the encounter and sorcerer spell selection is tiny. Fireball gets chosen because it is broadly effective. A D&D wizard has to hope he has chosen correctly before the encounter ever begins and ever present saving throws and SR (and OOTS universe, these things crop up all the time) diminishes the utility of even those. The OOTS druid fight is illustrative of this. He can't just whip out the most useful spells. He's stuck with what he has and he's certainly not recharging his spells for day two of continuous fight.

Yes, but if we argue over what spells he has prepped, the argument is pointless.

V can equal some of his feats, but you haven't named the spells to break the side of a mountain. And forcecage doesn't last that long. Name the D&D wizard who's arsenal isn't nearly or totally exhausted after several minutes of continious combat. D&D spells fail because of saves and SR all the time and both of those conditions are canon in OOTS.

But lets see, Stone Shape would allow him to break mountains, So does Rock to Mud. Of course, it depends on how you define "break a mountainside"

Sorecage in the hands of V wold last 26 hours. More than enough time to rest and prep spells. And we dont know if Gandalf could do anything about it, because it is immune to normal dispelling. Can Gandalf disintegrate things? In this way he very well COULD stretch a battle out for 3 days or more.

The book has him fill the hall with darkness, glow with light and paralyze Wormtongue in an instance. Name the spell that can do all three simultaneously. And he has to have them all prepared.

The drkness and light are cosmetic effects. Hold Person.

The real question is to what degree is Gandalf's claims regarding the fight literally true. A three day spell battle and mountain shattering is way beyond V's capability. Hell, surviving a minute in close proximity to a balrog is beyond him. It's the high water mark of Gandalf the Grey's power (although we are dealing with the even more powerful Gandalf the White).

One issue is that just because the battle lasted a long time, does not mean that individual spells are anywhere near as powerful. Just because the Balrog can dispel Gandalf'smagic, does not mean he would succeed against V. And it does not follow that he has innate spell resistence. Different universes, different creatures, different abilities.

Given how poorly defined Gandalf & the Balrogs power are, there's no way to know if they could dispel that forcecage with their own magic. The book Balrog countered Gandalf's door locking spell with it's own magic, not by punching the door; it's a magic user as well.

ANd we would need to determine how easy it would be to actually dispel V's magic. Is the spell an automatic success, or does it depend on the power of the spellcasters involved?

Name the spell that breaks arrows and heats up sword blades. Stoneskin's nice, but not up to the task.

To have magical parity one need not be able to duplicate the spell, all one needs to be able to do is accomplish the same ends. Which is why I asked if Gandalf can Disintegrate things.

Better at stealth in a forest than a centuries old (at the minimum) wood elf? Her senses sure as hell aren't equal and she's never demonstrated any woodsy skills in the several times she's been in a forest. The terrain does not favor her. It is the natural terrain of an centuries or millenia old uber elf.

I would be willing to concede this... I had forgotten about Legolas' senses...

[Imperial Overlord]

Stoneshape and Rock to Mud are far too limited in effect to break the side of a mountain. A small avalanche is about the best they can do along those lines.

Force cage is both counterable and resistable by SR, which are game mechanic effects, but very canon in OOTS. And the Balrog has demonstrated abilities along those lines.

Darkness and Light aren't mere cosmetic effects. D&D has a whole range of spells that are necessary to produce those effects.

Finger of Death is a poor choice to use against a gigantic demon unless you have Nalifan like DCs.

Prepping spells and spell choice is not a side issue. It is very deliberate and serious weakness to V's powers and one that has shown up in the comics and nearly lead to his death.

And this is, to repeat, the even more powerful Gandalf the White. He takes it.

[Civil War Man]

Darkness and Light aren't mere cosmetic effects. D&D has a whole range of spells that are necessary to produce those effects.

The Darkness spell is quite different than making the room darker, since Darkness makes it hard for characters with nightvision to see. You could probably produce the effect with a spell that extinguishes the candles (and the bigass fire in the middle of the hall), with a spell that causes the target to glow.

Still, D&D mages are not very flexible, so it takes a lot of contortions (or liberal application of Quickened Prestidigitations) to produce these effects.

Gandalf does seem to operate more on the Mage: The Ascension system, where he is able to produce the effect he wants when he wants it, only without having to worry about Paradox so much. And a top-tier oWoD mage wields the type of power that could wipe the floor with both V and Gandalf, at least before the Mage explodes violently from a massive Paradox backlash.

[Imperial Overlord]

Gandalf states (I'm paraphrasing slightly) at the Door of Morea that he knows the spells of "Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Orcs" (while he's moaning about not getting the door to open). That's a very big arsenal compared to the small bag of tricks most D&D wizards can call upon.

[Civil War Man]

Gandalf states (I'm paraphrasing slightly) at the Door of Morea that he knows the spells of "Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Orcs" (while he's moaning about not getting the door to open). That's a very big arsenal compared to the small bag of tricks most D&D wizards can call upon.

It is probably likely that many of those spells were not applicable in most situations, considering the kind of trivial shit they tie spells to in Middle Earth. I mean, if he really searched through his memory, he could probably pull up a spell where the only effect is to unlock the hidden door in the back of the office of the governor of the Numenor province of West Assfuck that leads to his special Bribes and Hookers reception room.

[Civil War Man]

Ghetto Edit: My post is not trying to downgrade Gandalf power, just pointing out that number of spells known does not necessarily equal more powerful wizard.

[Imperial Overlord]

Gandalf states (I'm paraphrasing slightly) at the Door of Morea that he knows the spells of "Elves, Dwarves, Men, and Orcs" (while he's moaning about not getting the door to open). That's a very big arsenal compared to the small bag of tricks most D&D wizards can call upon.

It is probably likely that many of those spells were not applicable in most situations, considering the kind of trivial shit they tie spells to in Middle Earth. I mean, if he really searched through his memory, he could probably pull up a spell where the only effect is to unlock the hidden door in the back of the office of the governor of the Numenor province of West Assfuck that leads to his special Bribes and Hookers reception room.

Of course many of them won't be applicable in most situation. But it is still impressive.

[Stormbringer]

It occurs to me I'm being a little excessive in my demands. D&D wizards can effectively duplicate many of the feats Gandalf performs (some easily, others with considerable difficulty), but for them they have to have the right spells chosen a head of time, luck with the saves and SR, and quickly expend their magical resources.

I think it's a question of whether a D&D mage can fire off enough of an alpha strike as to overwhelm Gandalf or not. If they get into a protracted fight that clearly favors Gandalf because of D&D mechanics.

The real question is to what degree is Gandalf's claims regarding the fight literally true. A three day spell battle and mountain shattering is way beyond V's capability. Hell, surviving a minute in close proximity to a balrog is beyond him. It's the high water mark of Gandalf the Grey's power (although we are dealing with the even more powerful Gandalf the White).

There is certainly that because while Gandalf's account implies a truly ferocious and powerful battle, it's also far beyond anything we've seen him do on screen. Even when confronted by Ringwraiths or considering the issue of Smaug never seems to be willing or able to resort to such potent force.

And while I don't doubt that Olorin is quite powerful, his incarnation as Gandalf seems to be rather more restricted. Whether he would actually be able to pull such a thing against a "normal" mortal is an issue that is not fully settled.

[loomer]

he's certainly not recharging his spells for day two of continuous fight.

Sorry, but that rule is outdated for some spellcasters. The Kiss of Dawn feat, , allows arcane spellcasters to regain all their spells at dawn without preparation. (Rule is present in the current edition of Ravenloft, the Heroes of Light book.)

[Praxis]

And Vaarsuvious has shown herself able to use Finger of Death twice in the space of a minute, indicating she's pretty high level.

Isn't Vaarsuvious a GUY?

Vaarsuvious' gender is deliberately ambiguous. Certain characters ALWAYS call V a he, and certain characters always call V a she.

It's a running joke in the series, and the creator refuses to say which gender V is.

[Praxis]

Any particular Balrog? Because there are a couple of them ranging from Gothmog to Durin's Bane. I suspect they'll beat the Monster in the Dark rather handily, at least from the MitD's showing so far.

Are you kidding?

MitD vs the highest ranking paladin:





These instances are MitD literally just toying around. He'd stomp just about anything thrown at him. We're talking about a creature that doesn't even notice being stabbed by a sword, and can cause ground-shattering earthquakes on ACCIDENT.

I actually haven't seen more than a couple of minutes of LotR (heresy here, I know) but didn't they beat a Balrog by dropping it off a cliff?

[Stark]

There is certainly that because while Gandalf's account implies a truly ferocious and powerful battle, it's also far beyond anything we've seen him do on screen. Even when confronted by Ringwraiths or considering the issue of Smaug never seems to be willing or able to resort to such potent force.

And while I don't doubt that Olorin is quite powerful, his incarnation as Gandalf seems to be rather more restricted. Whether he would actually be able to pull such a thing against a "normal" mortal is an issue that is not fully settled.

Maybe this is myth-logic - he's fighting his Evil Nemesis so he reveals more of his power than he does when he's just traipsing about. Just like the references to possible battles between Sauron and Galadriel or Elrond, it seems that these guys have some higher level of power available to them when they go super-saiyan.

Put another way, any restrictions Olorin was under in his incarnation would be gone under the mountain, where there's nobody to see, he's fighting for his life and his human body would have been destroyed anyway. This *IS* the guy who broke into Dol Guldur to find out if it was Sauron... and then just left. I'm not sure his Valar-sent ROE would count against overworldly invaders.

[Stark]

I actually haven't seen more than a couple of minutes of LotR (heresy here, I know) but didn't they beat a Balrog by dropping it off a cliff?

Are you reading the thread? Week-long battle. By the time Ganders smote the Balrog it was running on empty. It already survived falling for fucking ages down the chasm.

[lance]

Force cage is both counterable and resistable by SR, which are game mechanic effects, but very canon in OOTS. And the Balrog has demonstrated abilities along those lines.
.

Forcecage actually has no saving throw or spell resistance.

[Imperial Overlord]

Kiss of Dawn feat

No evidence that V has that feat and he would still exhaust his spells in minutes and burn even faster.

Force Cage can be counterspelled and the balrog (whose size is nebulous) may be too large to contain. Nor is their evidence that V has the spell, let alone would have it prepared. Or survive being that close to a fiery balrog to cast it.

[NecronLord]

What's all this about breaking the mountainside being impressive? The Balrog 'broke it in his Ruin' as in Gandalf kicked him off the tower at Zirakzigil, Durin's Bane died, and caused an avalanche in so doing.

He didn't smash up the mountain or anything like that - we know, because Moria was still inhabitable in later years. Oh, and Gandalf didn't lose his sword in the battle. He still had it later on.

Of course, as for the actual deathmatch. Gandalf has the advantage of not being 'balanced' I expect if he gets the drop on the other guy, he'll be quite able to shove Glamdring through his eye. If he doesn't, he'll likely get set on fire or something.

[Gil Hamilton]

There is certainly that because while Gandalf's account implies a truly ferocious and powerful battle, it's also far beyond anything we've seen him do on screen. Even when confronted by Ringwraiths or considering the issue of Smaug never seems to be willing or able to resort to such potent force.

And while I don't doubt that Olorin is quite powerful, his incarnation as Gandalf seems to be rather more restricted. Whether he would actually be able to pull such a thing against a "normal" mortal is an issue that is not fully settled.

Well, I don't know about the Nazgul at Weathertop, but he didn't have much of a reason to intervene with Smaug and a compelling reason not to. At that time, Sauron was rebuilding in the south of Mirkwood and the Wise were in the process of investigating him. As terrible as Smaug was, he was a strictly a local problem for the dwarves of the Lonely Mountain and to Lake Town. His job in Middle Earth was specifically to help them fight Sauron. If he went crazy Olorin Maiar mode and blew Smaug away, rather than obliquely helping out, it would have certainly gotten Sauron's attention in his current haunts and tipped him off that Valinor was directly intervening in Middle Earth again.

With Durin's Bane, the jig was already up and he didn't have a choice but to fight, but the events of the Hobbit and his confrontation at Weathertop were not seriously dangerous situations.

[Yogi]

Can Gandalf fly? Fly is a third level spell, lasts for around 12 min (assuming that V is 12th level) and makes using Glamdring rather difficult if Gandalf cannot fly himself.

[Ar-Adunakhor]

Can Gandalf fly? Fly is a third level spell, lasts for around 12 min (assuming that V is 12th level) and makes using Glamdring rather difficult if Gandalf cannot fly himself.

No, it is firmly established that he cannot and relies on the Eagles for that. He does have telekenesis though. That could be an effective counter for flying, depending on the amount of force the two spells can exert.

[NecronLord]

Can Gandalf fly? Fly is a third level spell, lasts for around 12 min (assuming that V is 12th level) and makes using Glamdring rather difficult if Gandalf cannot fly himself.

See, that's the horrible thing about relying on D&D mechanics for discussion. If the other guy rolls a one on his initiative, he's going to just have to take it up the ass for six seconds or so. This silly example is of course, why I raised the issue of relying on mechanics.

I would instead, reccommend looking at what this character has actually done rather than saying "Well, they're thirteenth level, so they should obviously have access to teleportation magic..."

[Styphon]

which leaves us with "kills something very tough over the course of a week" vs "disintegrates something very tough in an instant".

so, basically, this is the fantasy equivalent of shieldship vs glass cannon.

[Stormbringer]

Are you kidding?

MitD vs the highest ranking paladin:

Don't fucking steal bandwidth. A link is more than sufficient, though I will point out that I follow the comic already.

These instances are MitD literally just toying around. He'd stomp just about anything thrown at him. We're talking about a creature that doesn't even notice being stabbed by a sword, and can cause ground-shattering earthquakes on ACCIDENT.

And given the monster's childish and immature nature, your implication that his actions were done with restraint. The MitD is quite powerful but so are most of the Balrogs, hugely so.

I actually haven't seen more than a couple of minutes of LotR (heresy here, I know) but didn't they beat a Balrog by dropping it off a cliff?

A Balrog was killed after being thrown off a cliff after the end of a protracted fight with the Elf-lord Glorfindel and part of the guard of Gonodolin, which resulted in both of the antagonists dying. So you have to remember extenuating circumstances as a fall is no guarantee, as Durin's Bane proved, so even with the wings debate aside a fall isn't a sure method.

The reason I asked about which Balrog is that they're variable. A weaker one, which Durin's Bane probably is, is still quite powerful. But one of the big bads like Gothmog is easily capable of feats matching the Monster in the Dark. Gothmog was considered a fair match for Sauron, if not more so when it came to raw power, and could easily handle the Monster (as so far revealed).

Well, I don't know about the Nazgul at Weathertop, but he didn't have much of a reason to intervene with Smaug and a compelling reason not to.

On the contrary, Gandalf considered Smaug a very grave threat. The reason he assembled the Dwarves was because Smaug, especially if allied with Sauron which was a distinct possibility, was fully capable of decimating entire armies and would have neutralized the Elves of Mirkwood, Lothlorien, and most all the Dwarves. He was a huge threat and Gandalf considered removing him a major priority, about the biggest thing short of Sauron himself, as is shown in Unfinished Tales. If he didn't cut lose on an ancient and terrible servant of Morogoth, then it's safe say it's extremely unlikely to happen with V.

With Durin's Bane, the jig was already up and he didn't have a choice but to fight, but the events of the Hobbit and his confrontation at Weathertop were not seriously dangerous situations.

Weathertop was pretty damn serious as Gandalf's reluctance to tangle with the Ringwraiths proves; he talks about standing against them as being both difficult and uncertain. Gandalf never, ever talks about the Ringwraiths as if they were no serious danger.

And again, in the confrontation with the wolves in the Hobbit he's actually planning on simply taking as many down with him as possible. That's not exactly the mark of a hugely powerful being with nothing to fear.