Alexander the Great Vs. the Wheel of Time.

[Alex Moon]

Under your new scenario, I'd have to say Alexander has a much better chance of winning. Most of the southern Randland states are likely to fall quickly, especially ones like Altara where there is quite a bit of infighting among the nobles. If Alexander can offer them a position of strength, he should be able to take Altara, Murandy and possibly Illian if he offered them the possibility of a victory over Tear.

Amadecia is under the influence of the Whitecloaks, and so would likely have to be conquered. Tear would resist and would be a tough nut to crack since their fortress, The Stone of Tear, is power-built. Mayene would go to Alexander's side quickly I think.

Andor is powerful enough to give Alexander problems if he allows them time to prepare, or if Morgase is smart enough to try and forge an alliance with other nations early on. However, if Alexander attacks, he can cut Andor's connection to their mines and foundries in the western part of the nation. Caemlyn is a very well defended city, however, and would likely require an extensive seige to take.

Cairhein would likely fall to Alexander's forces from within, due to the political manuevering of the Cairheinian nobles.

The nations of Arad Domain and Tarabon would likely have to be defeated in battle for Alexander to gain control.

Finally, I think the borderlands would likely go to Alexander's side if he promised aid them in their defense against the blight more actively.

The White Tower is likely to look upon Alexander as some sort of male channeller, which could mean trouble. I would expect Aes Sedai to try and capture him, which would mean trying to unite the nations against him. Would Alexander be likely to claim the title of Dragon Reborn to advance his goal of conquest? It doesn't matter since everyone will eventually assume that he is the Dragon Reborn.

Assuming he doesn't take Andor immediately, then I would guess that Morgase and the White Tower begin forging alliances with other nations to take him on. The WT will most likely get personally involved because they'll believe that he is some sort of channeller. They may try to negotiate at first, but negotiations will fail. The Reds will want to gentle him, the Greens might believe that he is the DR, and Alexander won't want to be their puppet. If the Aes Sedai get directly involved in the battles, then I lesson Alexander's chances of victory considerably. Warders and the one power will turn the tables against him.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Would Alexander be likely to claim the title of Dragon Reborn to advance his goal of conquest?

Alexander was fully willing to integrate into the local cultures that he conquered. He was hailed as Pharaoh (and thus the incarnation of Re, after a fashion) in Egypt already by this time, and after Arbela would adopt Persian customs--even at the anger of his own men--to cement his Empire. If it was advantageous, claiming such a title would be something he'd quite willingly do. The lack of a Macedonian to easily get back to, for that matter, would probably make Parmenio and the other conversative Macedonian horse-lords support him more thoroughly in such things.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Oh, an interesting thing to note about Greek warfare--there was no cult of youth, so to speak, in military combat. It was regular for even the very old to go into combat, and one Spartan King died on return from campaign in mid eighties--as a general, his position would have been, on that return, in the front rank, fighting just like a common hoplite. The most elite of Alexander's troops were renowned and prized as veteran mercenaries into their seventies, still fighting in the thick of battle with their sarissa in close order--and, in fact, it was favoured for the old men to be in the front ranks, where their experience and steadiness would be to good effect. That's what the discipline of hoplite warfare allowed.

[D.Turtle]

Alex Moon summed it together quite well.

Alexander can forget invading the Aiel Waste.
He can forget invading Seanchan and he can forget defending against the Seanchan Return (He has nothing to oppose damane).

Otherwise, he should be able to secure most of the main land (also through fighting but mostly by using correct political maneuvering to support himself), because everyone is quite splintered up in the beginning of WoT.

He would also have a hard time to hold off a full invasion by the Dark Ones minions - after all they will have magic user support and various other beings that render soldiers unprepared for them quite helpless.

[Stormbringer]

Rands forces (the Asha'man, Legion of the Dragon, and the Aiel) and the Seanchan both have the discipline and channelers to smash Alexander. It'd a repeat of Dumai's Wells all over again. The Macedonians would be a fine mist over the battlefeild.

The channelers are the only advantage. The Legion is made up entirely of people with crossbows, for God's sake, and the Aiel are possibly the most pathetic military force ever described in fantasy.

I'm not saying that the Legion is best force to do the job. They were meant to go after channelers and nothing else. Though they do have short swords and mail armor. They can't take the Greeks on their own, I know that much.

Your unreasonable limiting of the Aiel shows. They don't carry just the short spear. In fact they have fighters that use just about everything save swords. In reality they should suck, but in the Wheel of Time universe they work no matter how ridicilous and are capable of defeating disciplined troops such as hoplites.

[Stormbringer]

The Greeks will be able to run wild among the southern wetlands. None of the nations have an army capable of fighting the Greeks.

But the Borderlands should be able to force them back if not defeat them outright, same for the Aiel. And needless to say the Seanchan would pound them into a pulp in short order.

Of course the Greek arrival would probably mean then Dark One cuts his armies loose much sooner. And with that, everyone dies.

[HemlockGrey]

Your unreasonable limiting of the Aiel shows. They don't carry just the short spear. In fact they have fighters that use just about everything save swords. In reality they should suck, but in the Wheel of Time universe they work no matter how ridicilous and are capable of defeating disciplined troops such as hoplites.

The shortspear is their main weapon. I don't recall ever having read about them using bows, they have no siege weapons, and they have never used longspears or pikes.

Further, never in the WoT has a commander(to my knowledge, I may have missed something) ordered a mass cavalry charge with heavy cavalry(like Alexander's Companions) against the Aiel, and such a charge should slaughter them wholesale, because they have nothing to defend against it.

[Stormbringer]

The shortspear is their main weapon. I don't recall ever having read about them using bows, they have no siege weapons, and they have never used longspears or pikes.

It's their main weapon, yes. But not their only weapon. Bows and long spears are mentioned on occasion. The versatility of the Aiel Warrior is mentioned many times.

As to seige engines, no they don't have them. The Shaido were making crude seige weapons at Cairhiern though.

Further, never in the WoT has a commander(to my knowledge, I may have missed something) ordered a mass cavalry charge with heavy cavalry(like Alexander's Companions) against the Aiel, and such a charge should slaughter them wholesale, because they have nothing to defend against it.

Actually a massed cavalry charge is the standard tactic to deal with Aiel. The Borderlanders regulary employed it in the Aiel War and for dealing with Aiel raids. It works (sort of) but the cavalry usually still pays very heavily. And the Borderlanders are supposed to be the best horse cavalry in the WOT-verse and the Sheirnan's are the best heavy cavalry and still take heavy losses.

The Aiel might not have the historical defenses against heavy cavalry but they manage to defeat them some how.

[HemlockGrey]

Yeah, that's one of my big problems with the WoT-verse; Jordan takes a force that would be slaughtered by the bloody Spartans and makes it out to be some sorta uber-army.

[Stormbringer]

Yeah, that's one of my big problems with the WoT-verse; Jordan takes a force that would be slaughtered by the bloody Spartans and makes it out to be some sorta uber-army.

Oh, I'll agree with you there. But then again he wouldn't be the first one to do that.

But it is marginally alleviated by simply avoiding unnecessary details which would only be wrong. He simply gives the results afterwards.

[Oddity]

Alex vs. the Aiel (440,000):
Alexander?s army is slaughtered. During the Aiel War these people smashed every army that was sent against them, and reached the walls of Tar Valon before they went home. One-on-one they are superior fighters, and their leaders have a good grasp of tactics.

The only reason they did so well is because every other military leader in WoT is an idiot.

I love this argument. After the Consolidation Wars, the Hundred Years War and the Trolloc Wars (the latter which lasted for more than three hundred years and involved armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands), plus the numerous wars fought between various nations since the Breaking, every military leader in WoT is still an idiot....

People in WoT must be unable to think, I guess.

One charge of heavily armored lancers will split the Aiel open like the fruits they are. The Aiel do not have longspears nor do they pikes.

In the Battle of Cairhien the Aiel were giving pikemen more than a little trouble. The only thing that forced them to withdraw was a surprise attack by cavalry. Also, Aiel have been known to defeat heavy cavalry earlier. I don't remember numbers, but I know the Aiel were outnumbered. Finally, the Shaido nearly conquered Cairhien - without siege equipment.

Further, the Aiel have never committed anywhere near 150,000 soldiers to a single campaign, let alone 440,000, and let's not mention that the Aiel are frequently wracked by infighting.

Before the Battle of Cairhien Rand had 300,000 Aiel, plus an additional 150,000 who joined after the battle. I don't know how many he lost in that battle, but I'm chancing on 10,000. However, at the time Aiel were still coming in from the Waste, so the number may actually be higher.

Aiel have formed temporary truces when necessary (Hawkwing's invasion, the Aiel War).

Even if we pretend that the Aiel are dumb Klingon-style warriors, Big Alex will be defeated by sheer numbers.

Alex vs. Legion of the Dragon (15-18,000):
Depends on the terrain. In open terrain the Legion will probably be defeated, in forested terrain Alexander will be defeated.

The Legion is made up entirely of men with crossbows. All Alexander's forces have to do is close to shock combat and they're through.

Reread the above quote: "...in forested terrain..." Macedonian cavalry tactics will not work in forested terrain.

Alex vs. Band of the Red Hand (10,000):
Alexander is defeated. Not only is the Band seasoned veterans, but they are also lead by a man who have memories belonging to several dead generals stuffed into his head.

And has to date never displayed any sort of brilliant leadership rivaling that Alexander. Further, the Band does not even approach a combined-armed force and is outnumbered 4-1.

[Points at HemlockGrey and laughs.] Alexander can defeat someone who has the life experience of every major general since the Trolloc Wars.

I'm not denying it'll be messy with the 4-1 advantage and all, but ultimately his army will be forced back, if not destroyed. BTW, what do you consider a combined-armed force?

Alex vs. the Borderlands (<200,000):
Alexander is defeated. His powers make him able to inflict heavy casualties on the borderlanders, but plate mail and lances vs. bronze breastplates or leather armor? Come on!

The Borderlands suffer from lack of a combined-arms force; they are nearly entirely heavy cavalry, and heavy cavalry loses badly to heavy infantry, as Narses so admirably taught his opponents.

'Nearly entirely heavy cavalry?' The Borderlanders have fought Trollocs for as long as their nations have existed. The Trollocs are both stronger and tougher than the average human, and therefore make excellent heavy infantry... Can you see the problem?

Alex vs. the White Tower (15,000):
Well, the Aes Sedai can?t fight unless they are in danger, so they are out of the picture? but I guess the Aes Sedai gathered there can nullify anything Alexander tries to do. Therefore we are looking at a siege that will last months and years. I honesty don?t know who will win here.

...why would it last months and years, when Alexander can seal off the river, and has access and experience with siege equipment, which is something the Aiel completely lacked?

Tar Valon has been besieged before. First by Trollocs, then by Hawkwing. Neither managed to conquer the city, and the latter also had access and experience with siege equipment. And if they Alexander's people manage to take the walls, the Aes Sedai would be very much in danger, and then...

How do you figure Alexander will seal off the river, BTW?

Alex vs. the army of the Dark One:
If Alexander can defeat the countless Trollocs, Myrddraals and Draghkars, as well as whatever the Forsaken can do to him in terms of the One Power? well, why don?t he just snap his fingers and wipe out all the armies in WoT that way?

Trollocs suck as soldiers, period. Alexander's missle troops along should inflict horrible casualties on them, but he is very likely outnumbered by enormous margins.

Of course, Trollocs rely on superior numbers and sheer ferocity to win. Casualties aren't likely to intimidate an enemy who enjoys killing. Bottom line: Alexander's army is slaughtered.

[Oddity]

Right, new scenario? Woops...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Right, new scenario? Woops...

Not new, just an expansion, really, or definition.

[HemlockGrey]

I love this argument. After the Consolidation Wars, the Hundred Years War and the Trolloc Wars (the latter which lasted for more than three hundred years and involved armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands), plus the numerous wars fought between various nations since the Breaking, every military leader in WoT is still an idiot....

People in WoT must be unable to think, I guess.

Evidently, seeing as how entire armies from all the nations managed to get their asses handed to them on a platter by an army of short-spearsmen who's only logistical strategy was to pillage and burn.

In the Battle of Cairhien the Aiel were giving pikemen more than a little trouble. The only thing that forced them to withdraw was a surprise attack by cavalry. Also, Aiel have been known to defeat heavy cavalry earlier. I don't remember numbers, but I know the Aiel were outnumbered. Finally, the Shaido nearly conquered Cairhien - without siege equipment.

This is almost entirely a combination of RJ wanking and the rank incompetence of WoT military.

A highly disciplined Swiss-style square of pikemen with 8-foot steel pikes would have absolutely no trouble in dealing with the Aiel. However, as Alexander has no Swiss-style pikemen, it is a moot point.

My original point was that the Aiel do not have any pikemen, either, and, therefor, no way of defeating a massed heavy cavalry charge, because a three-foot shortspear is not going to deter a charging horse.

I believe there was incident with that Andorian prince(forget his name) attacking Aiel with heavy cavalry and getting whipped, but his men attacked as individuals, fighting single engagements, rather than just running down the Aiel with lances.

And I have no freakin' clue how the Aiel managed to nearly sack a walled city without siege equipment.

Even if we pretend that the Aiel are dumb Klingon-style warriors, Big Alex will be defeated by sheer numbers.

Alexander will not be stupid enough to fight them all at once. He was also an excellant strategist.

How are the Aiel getting their supplies? A medieval world is hard-pressed to supply 300,000 warriors.

Reread the above quote: "...in forested terrain..." Macedonian cavalry tactics will not work in forested terrain.

And Alexander would engage the enemy in a forest...why?

Alexander has the luxury of chosing the time and place of battle. He has no 'homebase' to defend, as it where, so he can strike whenever and wherever his logistical train allows him to.

[Points at HemlockGrey and laughs.] Alexander can defeat someone who has the life experience of every major general since the Trolloc Wars.

I'm not denying it'll be messy with the 4-1 advantage and all, but ultimately his army will be forced back, if not destroyed. BTW, what do you consider a combined-armed force?

Not once has Mat displayed any tactical superiority over Alexander, nor has he ever displayed any sort of grasp of logistical strategy, which is ultimately far more important.

Further, as I mentioned before, Mat's army is not a combined-arms force. Alexander combines light infantry, heavy infantry, heavy cavalry, and light cavalry into a flexible army. The Band is composed almost entirely of heavy infantry and heavy cavalry.

'Nearly entirely heavy cavalry?' The Borderlanders have fought Trollocs for as long as their nations have existed. The Trollocs are both stronger and tougher than the average human, and therefore make excellent heavy infantry... Can you see the problem?

Yes; the problem being that ancient and medieval heavy infantry, on the defensive, can easily resist heavy cavalry. Now, this is not true when the infantry is flanked, as happened at Zama, but a heavy cavalry charge versus disciplined or even just drawn-up heavy infantry will either fail or take horrible casualties, and the Borderlander armies are almost entirely HC, since all we ever hear about are the 'lancers'

Tar Valon has been besieged before. First by Trollocs, then by Hawkwing. Neither managed to conquer the city, and the latter also had access and experience with siege equipment. And if they Alexander's people manage to take the walls, the Aes Sedai would be very much in danger, and then...

How do you figure Alexander will seal off the river, BTW?

To the former: Tar Valon can't hold out forever; simply starving it would work, or simply bypassing the city, which poses no real threat to his army.

To the latter: He could just sink a ship in the river to block passage. It's not terribly difficult.

Of course, Trollocs rely on superior numbers and sheer ferocity to win. Casualties aren't likely to intimidate an enemy who enjoys killing. Bottom line: Alexander's army is slaughtered.

Yes, just like the armies of the world where all slaughtered during the Trolloc Wars, even though they prevailed by inflicting horrible casualties...?[/quote]

[The Duchess of Zeon]

I love this argument. After the Consolidation Wars, the Hundred Years War and the Trolloc Wars (the latter which lasted for more than three hundred years and involved armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands), plus the numerous wars fought between various nations since the Breaking, every military leader in WoT is still an idiot....

Not so much an idiot as wedded to certain cultural concepts of how to fight. Like, say, the Klingons--individual warrior glory and all that.

In the Battle of Cairhien the Aiel were giving pikemen more than a little trouble.

Pikemen without discipline are merely warriors holding very long spears, and have utterly no relation to the Macedonian Phalangite.

Before the Battle of Cairhien Rand had 300,000 Aiel, plus an additional 150,000 who joined after the battle. I don't know how many he lost in that battle, but I'm chancing on 10,000. However, at the time Aiel were still coming in from the Waste, so the number may actually be higher.

Which is still hardly greater than the number of enemy--a more organized enemy at that--whom Alexander routed at Issus with the loss of a few hundred men, when he fought with 35,000 soldiers under his command, not 47,000 or so.

Even if we pretend that the Aiel are dumb Klingon-style warriors, Big Alex will be defeated by sheer numbers.

You cannot defeat a Macedonian Army by sheer numbers. Let me emphasize that. Numbers are irrelevant to the Greek equation of warfare. Do you really think that even the Aiel can sustain three hundred killed a minute in sustained action against an enemy who might suffer one killed every five minutes, and not at some point break? Not even religious fanatics nor the drugged combatants of some old African tribes could manage such a feat. At some point the critical mass would be reached and the Aiel would turn and run, and it would be much more likely to be before the Macedonians have been exhausted by killing.

Reread the above quote: "...in forested terrain..." Macedonian cavalry tactics will not work in forested terrain.

Perhaps, though you should read the stories of some of the areas Alexander took--storming citadels in modern Tajikistan, in the winter, in the snow, scaling near vertical cliffs under fire.

Alexander can defeat someone who has the life experience of every major general since the Trolloc Wars.

Why not? If they're all fixed to an outdated conception of tactics, he'll be unable to meet the Macedonian assault--though, one grants, recognizing it as the danger it is, he could perhaps choose a good position to resist it. But so did Darius III, and that did him little good.

[HemlockGrey]

Uh, Marina, I didn't write any of those things...

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Uh, Marina, I didn't write any of those things...

I know. It was an error in the way I was quoting--sorry!

[The Duchess of Zeon]

How do you figure Alexander will seal off the river, BTW?

To the latter: He could just sink a ship in the river to block passage. It's not terribly difficult.

Actually, he could probably have his troops build ships. He has all the necessary knowledge and materials, and it isn't that hard. He could easily have a small squadron of galleys armed with mechanical artillery outfitted if it was a major river--but if a single ship can block the passage, that would hardly seem necessary.

[HemlockGrey]

Plus, when Alexander conquers the southern states, he can swell his army considerably.

[HemlockGrey]

Plus, if he does claim to be the Dragon Reborn, in the WoT verse, that's like, BAM, 3-4 private armies, right there.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Plus, when Alexander conquers the southern states, he can swell his army considerably.

Alexander wouldn't need to swell his army. New armour, and stirrups? Sure. But there's really no need for anything else, except perhaps some auxiliary contigents with crossbows. The entire argument is that his basic tactics and formational concepts render the numbers of the enemy irrelevant--which they do. The largest Macedonian-style army was about 120,000 men under the Diadochai, if that, and that was for fighting each other.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Plus, if he does claim to be the Dragon Reborn, in the WoT verse, that's like, BAM, 3-4 private armies, right there.

Allies, on the other hand, demonstrate the integrational weakness of the enemy, and the brilliance of his own strategic thinking. Divide and Conquer is virtually the history of western militaries.

[Oddity]

I love this argument. After the Consolidation Wars, the Hundred Years War and the Trolloc Wars (the latter which lasted for more than three hundred years and involved armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands), plus the numerous wars fought between various nations since the Breaking, every military leader in WoT is still an idiot....

People in WoT must be unable to think, I guess.

Evidently, seeing as how entire armies from all the nations managed to get their asses handed to them on a platter by an army of short-spearsmen who's only logistical strategy was to pillage and burn.

Does not follow. The fact that they were able to keep an army numbering in the hundreds of thousands supplied is evidence enough for an advanced military science. They must have had a logistics system equal to the Romans at the very least. This 'they are idiots' deal is just whining without any support.

In the Battle of Cairhien the Aiel were giving pikemen more than a little trouble. The only thing that forced them to withdraw was a surprise attack by cavalry. Also, Aiel have been known to defeat heavy cavalry earlier. I don't remember numbers, but I know the Aiel were outnumbered. Finally, the Shaido nearly conquered Cairhien - without siege equipment.

This is almost entirely a combination of RJ wanking and the rank incompetence of WoT military. SNIP.

It's in the books, it's canon, so deal with it. The Aiel have defeated heavy cavalry, the Aiel have nearly sacked a walled city without siege equipment, and the Aiel have committed more than 150,000 warriors to one single campaign. If you are going to play in the WoT world then you must use WoT rules.

I believe there was incident with that Andorian prince(forget his name) attacking Aiel with heavy cavalry and getting whipped, but his men attacked as individuals, fighting single engagements, rather than just running down the Aiel with lances.

I think you are confusing several incidences here. The heavy cavalry I was referring to was composed of borderlanders, IIRC.

Even if we pretend that the Aiel are dumb Klingon-style warriors, Big Alex will be defeated by sheer numbers.

Alexander will not be stupid enough to fight them all at once. He was also an excellant strategist.

How are the Aiel getting their supplies? A medieval world is hard-pressed to supply 300,000 warriors.

The Aiel will not just sit still and wait for him to attack. They will seek him out and force a battle. And the logistical problem I've already mentioned.

Reread the above quote: "...in forested terrain..." Macedonian cavalry tactics will not work in forested terrain.

And Alexander would engage the enemy in a forest...why?

Alexander has the luxury of chosing the time and place of battle. He has no 'homebase' to defend, as it where, so he can strike whenever and wherever his logistical train allows him to.

Cut this bullshit. When his supplies run out, the only way to find food and fodder for his army would be to strip the countryside. I'm sure that'll make him real popular... Alexander would be forced to conquer land quickly so that the inhabitants can supply him, and then he'd have a homebase.

Anyway, my point - which you dodged - was that he can't beat the Legion in such terrain.

[Points at HemlockGrey and laughs.] Alexander can defeat someone who has the life experience of every major general since the Trolloc Wars.

I'm not denying it'll be messy with the 4-1 advantage and all, but ultimately his army will be forced back, if not destroyed. BTW, what do you consider a combined-armed force?

Not once has Mat displayed any tactical superiority over Alexander, nor has he ever displayed any sort of grasp of logistical strategy, which is ultimately far more important.

Bullshit on two accounts. Not once has Alexander displayed a genius equal to the life experience of 1200 years worth of generals. For your second point, I suggest you reread book six where Mat demonstrates the exact opposite.

Further, as I mentioned before, Mat's army is not a combined-arms force. Alexander combines light infantry, heavy infantry, heavy cavalry, and light cavalry into a flexible army. The Band is composed almost entirely of heavy infantry and heavy cavalry.

The above quote makes it rather obvious that you don't know what you are talking about.

At Maerone the Band's strength was approximately six thousand men (Note: It later increased to ten thousand), roughly divided into one half mounted and one half foot. The mounted units were divided into two equal groups of about fifteen hundred each, approximately the size of a banner (roughly fifteen hundred horse or three thousand infantry), which was the basic military unit used at the highest point in military science of this age.

The mounted units were further divided into six squadrons, each consisting of ten troops.

The infantry was divided into twelve companies, each consisting of five squads. Each squad mixed pikemen, billmen, and crossbowmen, with approximately one archer or crossbowman to four pike or billmen. Currently, Mat seeks to increase the ratio of archers and crossbowmen.

Face it: The Band is as flexible as it needs to be, and a lot better equipped than Alexander's forces.

SNIP borderlands and heavy cavalry.

Well, the Borderland army is designed to fight shadowspawn, not anything else, so I guess they'll have problems early on. Yet, the huge numbers of heavy cavalry should be able to keep Big Alex away while they equip some pikemen.

Iron-tipped pikes vs. bronze or leather armor - interesting!

To the former: Tar Valon can't hold out forever; simply starving it would work, or simply bypassing the city, which poses no real threat to his army.

Starving it out is the only real option. And he can't bypass it since the Aes Sedai would most probably think he's a male channeler, and hence a threat.

To the latter: He could just sink a ship in the river to block passage. It's not terribly difficult.

Oh, I thought you were talking about those new powers of his. It would require a lot more than a single ship, however.

Of course, Trollocs rely on superior numbers and sheer ferocity to win. Casualties aren't likely to intimidate an enemy who enjoys killing. Bottom line: Alexander's army is slaughtered.

Yes, just like the armies of the world where all slaughtered during the Trolloc Wars, even though they prevailed by inflicting horrible casualties...?

The Trolloc Wars involved battles where as many as three hundred thousand men engaged even larger numbers of Trollocs and Myrddraal. Yet the war lasted for nearly three hundred years, and even those few nations who survived after a fashion collapsed within fifty years.

So yes, they prevailed... after having suffered near-genocidal casualties.


In any case, at most Alexander can conquer a few southern nations before the Aes Sedai gets convinced that he is a male channeler. Then they'll begin their political scheming to forge an alliance against him. Once that happens he's fucked.

Of course casualties will be suffered, but ultimately he can't hope to do much more than hold on to what he's already conquered. He's outnumbered by enormous margins, and his weapons and armor are much more primitive than that of the WoT world.

[HemlockGrey]

Does not follow. The fact that they were able to keep an army numbering in the hundreds of thousands supplied is evidence enough for an advanced military science. They must have had a logistics system equal to the Romans at the very least. This 'they are idiots' deal is just whining without any support.

No, there is absolutely no evidence for any sort of 'advanced military science'. The logistical systems of every other nation in Randland can barely support armies numbering in the 10K's, so how could the Aiel, a desert civilization, have developed a logistical system capable of supplying hundreds of thousands of soldiers in a completely alien landscape?

Obviously, they can't. However, the Aiel do take 1/5 of everything from the lands they pass through, therefor, this must be their main source of forage and military supplies. Cut them off from the plunder, cut them off from supplies.

It's in the books, it's canon, so deal with it. The Aiel have defeated heavy cavalry, the Aiel have nearly sacked a walled city without siege equipment, and the Aiel have committed more than 150,000 warriors to one single campaign. If you are going to play in the WoT world then you must use WoT rules.

The Aiel have never defeated a massed charge of armored lancers; the only instances of defeating heavy cavalry that I can recall are them defeating a small troop of horsemen armed with swords that engaged the Aiel in many one-on-one battles.

Further, given that the Aiel nearly sacked a walled city without siege equipment, Alexander, who does have access to siege equipment, will have a much, much easier time of it, ne?

The Aiel also never committed more than 150K warriors to a campaign until Rand fulfilled their prophecy.

Think about it. When the Trollocs overran the WoTverse, and when Artur Hawkwing overran the WoT verse, did the Aiel ever cross the mountains? No, they didn't. Since they didn't intervene when Artur was uniting the continent, what makes you think they will intervene when Alexander begins to do the same thing?

And what makes you think the inhabitants of Randland will even want Aiel help? The last time Aiel came flooding over the border they sacked a major country and killed tens of thousands of people. Alexander can be benevolent and merciful; the Aiel regard those qualities as weaknesses. Should they come back over the mountains, anyone who's able will probably join with Alexander to fight them.

I think you are confusing several incidences here. The heavy cavalry I was referring to was composed of borderlanders, IIRC.

I read the first nine books, and nowhere do I recall hearing any mention of borderlanders engaging Aiel.

The Aiel will not just sit still and wait for him to attack. They will seek him out and force a battle. And the logistical problem I've already mentioned.

How will they force him into a battle? In ancient and medieval warfare it was remarkably difficult to force an enemy to battle against his will. They will have to trap him against a river or attempt to lay siege to something he has already conquered, and Alexander is far too smart to fall for the former.

Cut this bullshit. When his supplies run out, the only way to find food and fodder for his army would be to strip the countryside. I'm sure that'll make him real popular... Alexander would be forced to conquer land quickly so that the inhabitants can supply him, and then he'd have a homebase.

Anyway, my point - which you dodged - was that he can't beat the Legion in such terrain.

The only bullshit I smell is your own ignorance. Of course Alexander would conquer land quickly- the southern states will fold like the French Army.

Your point about the Legion was that he couldn't beat them in forested terrain. We'll ignore the fact that you ignored Marina's examples of events in which Alexander did prevail, despite extreme terrain obstacles, and cut to the point, which is that the Legion has no way of forcing Alexander into a confrontation in such terrain. They can't siege a city because they're only armed with crossbows and shortswords, so they'll have to rely on a raiding strategy, and they can't stay in thickly forested terrain forever.

And the revised scenario takes place pre-Legion anyway, so Alexander is spared the trouble of butchering them.

Bullshit on two accounts. Not once has Alexander displayed a genius equal to the life experience of 1200 years worth of generals. For your second point, I suggest you reread book six where Mat demonstrates the exact opposite.

1200 years worth of generals can suck if it's entirely made up of idiots. I'm sure Marina will shred your disparagment of Alexander's skills, but for the moment, will you please provide this scintillating example of Mat's military genius, since I really have no desire to look through an 800 page book trying to find it?

At Maerone the Band's strength was approximately six thousand men (Note: It later increased to ten thousand), roughly divided into one half mounted and one half foot. The mounted units were divided into two equal groups of about fifteen hundred each, approximately the size of a banner (roughly fifteen hundred horse or three thousand infantry), which was the basic military unit used at the highest point in military science of this age.

The mounted units were further divided into six squadrons, each consisting of ten troops.

The infantry was divided into twelve companies, each consisting of five squads. Each squad mixed pikemen, billmen, and crossbowmen, with approximately one archer or crossbowman to four pike or billmen. Currently, Mat seeks to increase the ratio of archers and crossbowmen.

Face it: The Band is as flexible as it needs to be, and a lot better equipped than Alexander's forces.

Conceded; I do now remember reading something like this. HOWEVER!

However, the Band still lacks light cavalry, plus it lacks any sort of political support. It does not have any homebase to fall back on and it's only method of resupply will be through a raiding strategy. Alexander has dealt rather handily with guerrilas before, in southern Afganistan, and as the Band is hardly a guerrila force, it can simply be starved out.

Well, the Borderland army is designed to fight shadowspawn, not anything else, so I guess they'll have problems early on. Yet, the huge numbers of heavy cavalry should be able to keep Big Alex away while they equip some pikemen.

What? The reason heavy cavalry-only armies are going to fail is because light infantry and light cavalry can slice them up at ease. HTF is a line of pikemen going to stop that?

Iron-tipped pikes vs. bronze or leather armor - interesting!

Right, because Alexander won't enlist any local blacksmiths along the way.

Oh, I thought you were talking about those new powers of his. It would require a lot more than a single ship, however.

Then he can control the rivers, like Marina suggested.

The Trolloc Wars involved battles where as many as three hundred thousand men engaged even larger numbers of Trollocs and Myrddraal. Yet the war lasted for nearly three hundred years, and even those few nations who survived after a fashion collapsed within fifty years.

So yes, they prevailed... after having suffered near-genocidal casualties.

And yet Hawkwing managed to crush a new Trolloc invasion with relative ease.

In any case, at most Alexander can conquer a few southern nations before the Aes Sedai gets convinced that he is a male channeler. Then they'll begin their political scheming to forge an alliance against him. Once that happens he's fucked.

Uh? Once he's conquered a few southern nations, he already has an immense powerbase. Given his magnamity, he can expect weak resistance from the population, at best.

And why would the Aes Sedai be convinced he's a male channeler? He doesn't have any channeler-like abilities, and once it becomes apparent that he has eternal youth and whatnot, the Aes Sedai will be dead, or at his feet, or both.

[D.Turtle]

The Aiel have never defeated a massed charge of armored lancers; the only instances of defeating heavy cavalry that I can recall are them defeating a small troop of horsemen armed with swords that engaged the Aiel in many one-on-one battles.

Aiel have fought against the heavy cavalry and heavy infantry of the Borderlanders. I think it is in Book 5 when Rand is still in Rhuidean or following the Shaido Aiel. He discusses with Lan how to defeat Aiel. The only way to even have a chance of defeating them was by trying a double flanking maneuver and hope that your main force can block them long enough before there are any weaknesses in your lines and the flanking maneuver can work.

Think about it. When the Trollocs overran the WoTverse, and when Artur Hawkwing overran the WoT verse, did the Aiel ever cross the mountains? No, they didn't. Since they didn't intervene when Artur was uniting the continent, what makes you think they will intervene when Alexander begins to do the same thing?

They will only intervene once Alexander tries to invade the Aiel Waste.
Should he try that, he will be slaughtered. The aiel will unite against any foreign invaders - and bring massive numbers to bear - pretty much every person in the Aiel Waste will fight.

Further, given that the Aiel nearly sacked a walled city without siege equipment, Alexander, who does have access to siege equipment, will have a much, much easier time of it, ne?

Aiel can climb up the walls of the Stone of Tear - a fortress made with the One Power. They will easily find a way to climb over the walls. They were only held off at Airhien for as long as they were, because the defenders set fire to the buildings outside the wall.

How will they force him into a battle? In ancient and medieval warfare it was remarkably difficult to force an enemy to battle against his will. They will have to trap him against a river or attempt to lay siege to something he has already conquered, and Alexander is far too smart to fall for the former.

Aiel have mobility superior to cavalry/horse-equipped armies. THEY can choose the field of battle. Also - they Aiel don't have to necessarily rely on mass attacks or army vs army battles - using their quite exceptional stealth abilities they can raid very effectively.

We'll ignore the fact that you ignored Marina's examples of events in which Alexander did prevail, despite extreme terrain obstacles, and cut to the point, which is that the Legion has no way of forcing Alexander into a confrontation in such terrain.

Alexander's army will have to MOVE to get to other places he wants to conquer. Large parts of the WoT mainland are wooded - do you seriously think he can avoid wooded terrain altogether?

1200 years worth of generals can suck if it's entirely made up of idiots. I'm sure Marina will shred your disparagment of Alexander's skills, but for the moment, will you please provide this scintillating example of Mat's military genius, since I really have no desire to look through an 800 page book trying to find it?

These 1200 years of experience include the Trolloc Wars, Hawkwing and others. Artur Hawkwing is acknowledged in all of WoT as the best general ever to appear since the Breaking and before the happenings in the WoT series. He accomplished everything that Alexander is supposed to try in this scenario - during a time where the countries were a lot stronger than they are at the beginning of the series.
Let's see (not all in one book):
Mat took command of a relatively small group of soldiers sduring the siege of Cairhien - and defeated or held off quite a lot of Aiel attacks (including the one including Culadin).
Mat formed the strategy to defeat the Aiel at the siege of Cairhien.
Mat formed the strategy that conquered Illian.
Mat defeated any and all attacks made by the White Lions of Andor.

However, the Band still lacks light cavalry, plus it lacks any sort of political support. It does not have any homebase to fall back on and it's only method of resupply will be through a raiding strategy. Alexander has dealt rather handily with guerrilas before, in southern Afganistan, and as the Band is hardly a guerrila force, it can simply be starved out.

The cavalry of the noble's can hardly be described as heavy cavalry - it is rather light cavalry IMO.
The Band has the political support of Rand - isn't that enough?

However: This discussion is pretty much all points can be dismissed by simply pointing out that Alexander comes at the beginning of WoT. No Rand, No Mat, No Legion of the Dragon, no Ashaman, No Seanchan, No Forsaken, No huge army of the Borderland, etc. You pretty much chose the easiest time of all to invade.
So it is not really representative of WoT as it exists ATM.
It would be like saying: Can Alexander invade the US?
And then to change it later to : Can Alexander invade the US - in the 1300's.
By asking the question: Can alexander invade WoT, and later changing it to can Alexaner invade the WoT at its weakest point?
By changing this you conceeded that he has no chance of invading the WoT as it exists ATM. After all - pretty much the entire series is about the coming of the Last Battle and the need of the world to prepare for it - as ist is not ready.

One more thing: Alexander has about 1.5 years of time to invade as much as he can before the Seanchan start returning. Do you think he can invade enough in this period of time so that he can prepare a proper defence against the Seanchan - which would mean ruling almost the entirety of the main land, and getting the support of the Aes Sedai (against damane)?
I do not think so. Alexander has no chance of invading WoT.