Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[Sinewmire]

Thanks!

My colleagues at work are halfway through seasons 1, 2 and 3 respectively, and it's been driving me crazy not to give anything away!

Including my Ned Stark worshipping jock. Hee hee hee!

[Kane Starkiller]

Awww man I wanted to see that little worm incinerated by a dragon. Ah well the effects of that poison were suitably impressive. So who did it? Tyrion seems too obvious a choice and it looked like he was genuinely surprised as he was picking up the cup to inspect it. Tyrells loose a chance to have a member a part of royal family so there is nothing for them to gain by poisoning Joeffry. Martells perhaps out of revenge? Or Tywin so that the throne passes to younger Tommen which leaves Tywin free to rule Westeros.

I love the new dynamic developing between House Bolton and House Greyjoy. It's interesting to see the "bad guys" fight with each other rather than the usual good guys versus the monolithic forces of evil. Now you have Balon going on about how they don't sow, they pay the iron price, they are iron born, they take what is theirs and...oh look here is a bunch of psychos who flay your troops alive and there is your son's dick. Tell us more about how you don't sow.

So Brandon is building up to be a rather pivotal character and his story seems to resemble the more traditional fantasy "quest" of going into the unknown to try and find the answer to the looming threat of White Walkers. I understand that no one in Game of Thrones is safe from getting killed but they better not make me follow Bran all over the North Pole just so he can die from ammonia or something with no answers to show for it.

I'm still trying to figure out how the "Lord of Light" works. Clearly Lady Mellisandre possesses magical powers, like giving birth to that shadow creature but other stuff like throwing leaches into flames to somehow make people die on the other side of the continent seems a bit far fetched. Did burning the leeches somehow influence the minds of Walder Frey or Roose Bolton? Or influence whoever slipped poison into Joeffrys drink?

Where are the White Walkers? Season 2 ends with a large army of White Walkers moving, presumably, towards the wall. Then nothing really happens during Season 3 to advance the White Walker plot other than finding out about obsidian weapons. I hope we will start learning more about their movement, nature or motives in the coming episodes.

Why is the black dragon always in the forefront? Maybe it's a bit silly but it's kind of weird to me that Daenerys is always fussing about the black one with the white and green one left in the background. I mean they went through the trouble of differentiating between Stark's direwolfs but they can't give all three of the coolest creatures in the show their own little moment?

[Koolaidkirby]

Where are the White Walkers? Season 2 ends with a large army of White Walkers moving, presumably, towards the wall. Then nothing really happens during Season 3 to advance the White Walker plot other than finding out about obsidian weapons. I hope we will start learning more about their movement, nature or motives in the coming episodes.

The White walkers were marching on the Night Watch force camped out at the fist of the first men, not on the Wall itself. (It was the big hill they were camped out on). Then they were gone when the Wildling forces came by to check out what happened to the Night Watch army.

But yes they are totes mysterious and I like it that way.

[JME2]

Awww man I wanted to see that little worm incinerated by a dragon. Ah well the effects of that poison were suitably impressive. So who did it? Tyrion seems too obvious a choice and it looked like he was genuinely surprised as he was picking up the cup to inspect it. Tyrells loose a chance to have a member a part of royal family so there is nothing for them to gain by poisoning Joeffry. Martells perhaps out of revenge? Or Tywin so that the throne passes to younger Tommen which leaves Tywin free to rule Westeros.

BOOK SPOILER AHEAD
Spoiler

In the book, the murder's told from Tyrion's POV. He's just as shocked as everyone else.

No, dialogue later and hints imply that it's the Martells, but I know the Purple Wedding's been taken apart and examined with a forensic attention to detail over the last decade.

We'll see if the show definitively answers it.

[slebetman]

Why is the black dragon always in the forefront? Maybe it's a bit silly but it's kind of weird to me that Daenerys is always fussing about the black one with the white and green one left in the background. I mean they went through the trouble of differentiating between Stark's direwolfs but they can't give all three of the coolest creatures in the show their own little moment?

Alpha male (female?) behavior I presume. It's the same with my cats. There's always the one that demands the most attention and it's often the biggest most dominant in the pride/pack/litter.

[Lord Pounder]

Love the development of the dragons, they are fierce looking. I'm predicting that Bran, Rickon and A N Other end up Worging those dragons against the White Walkers in the end game.

The purple wedding was pretty awesome. Jack Gleeson was a bit dodgy with the death coughs but still managed to end up one of the more memorable deaths, and that's saying something considering how many deaths there have been.

Best scene for me so far was the melting of Ice and forging of the 2 new swords. Oath Keeper looked amazing. Best dialogue is between Arya and The Hound, makes me crave KFC.

[Darth Yan]

Saw the scene on youtube. Bon Voyage you little shit bag.

[Sinewmire]

For my money it was totally the Tyrells.

Joffrey and Margaery *are* married, right?

They've said their vows. Is Margaery now queen?

Also she was a little too... calculating... when she said "the King is choking!" My first though was not "he's choking" and I had no idea this was coming.

I would not be surprised if this is part of a plot between the Tyrells and Littlefinger, after that meeting at Renly's camp.

[Kane Starkiller]

After Joffrey's death Tommen is now king and Margaery is no longer a queen. So as far as that goes there is nothing for Tyrell's there. Although Lady Olenna did mention the marriage was Mace's idea which she did not approve.
I would say Dontos is pretty clearly a part of the plot as he didn't seem the least bit surprised, the question is who is the mastermind.

Here is an interesting analysis of who might have done it although the "evidence" is not exactly ironclad.

[Pelranius]

My money's on the Tyrells (though probably with outside help. Somehow I don't think that Tywin is comfortable having Joffrey around. Imagine if the little shit decided one day that he wanted to change Hands via decapitation, so Tywin may have at least given his assent. Varys is another potential helper).

[Crown]

They've said their vows. Is Margaery now queen?

As Margaery hasn't born Joffery a son, the succession passes to Tommen in the eyes of 6 out of the 7 kingdoms where they practice male-preference cognatic primogeniture and to Mycella for the Dornish who practice outright primogeniture.

[Napoleon the Clown]

To throw a little more conspiracy into the mix...

Cersei told Maester Pycelle that "the Queen" was ordering the leftovers be fed to the dogs, and this was after Joffrey and Margaery were married. So Margaery was, at that point, Queen. Not Cersei. Joffrey was still alive at this point in time, and Cersei has not made a secret of her opinion of Margaery. It was too late to do anything about the marriage, but the very idea of Margaery being Queen rankled Cersei so very greatly. Perhaps she knew?

[JME2]

Awww man I wanted to see that little worm incinerated by a dragon. Ah well the effects of that poison were suitably impressive. So who did it? Tyrion seems too obvious a choice and it looked like he was genuinely surprised as he was picking up the cup to inspect it. Tyrells loose a chance to have a member a part of royal family so there is nothing for them to gain by poisoning Joeffry. Martells perhaps out of revenge? Or Tywin so that the throne passes to younger Tommen which leaves Tywin free to rule Westeros.

Spoiler

In the book, the murder's told from Tyrion's POV. He's just as shocked as everyone else.

No, dialogue later and hints imply that it's the Martells, but I know the Purple Wedding's been taken apart and examined with a forensic attention to detail over the last decade.

We'll see if the show definitively answers it.

And guys -- this is a book spoiler, not TV.

Please bear that in mind; my bad, sorry.

[Elfdart]

It was pretty obvious who slipped the poison to Joffrey (HINT: They hosted Mystery! on PBS for several years). Now the part I found interesting was not just the blood streaming out of his nose, but also welling up in the pores on his face. This is usually how arsenic poisoning is portrayed in movies and TV shows (in a much more gruesome fashion in Queen Margot when the King of France sweats bullets of blood). The only thing is, arsenic usually takes a while to take effect. It's was often used in small doses spread out over time, so maybe Joffrey was already a dead man walking -or it was some kind of Westeros poison.

Anyway, it's not like the Seven Kingdoms will be lacking in sadistic fucktards, what with Ramsay Snow on the loose. Snow is much scarier because he's not as cowardly and stupid as Joffrey. He's one devious, evil son of a bitch. When Roose Bolton is creeped out by your crazy antics then grasshopper, you are one nutty motherfucker.

After watching this scene last week, I can see why they not only hired a new actor to play Fabio (after the other one left to do a movie), but made sure the new one didn't look like Fabio:



Could you imagine this scene with some clean-shaven dude with long blond hair? It would look like the cover of one of those Harlequin novels, only not held open by a fat girl in study hall. Not that it makes any difference since the Anti-Fabio is still pretty set on wanting to give the Queen of Dragons the hard salami. Now it appears the attraction is mutual. My girlfriend rewound the scene and showed me where Danerys was watching the Anti-Fabio walk away after giving her flowers, and pointed out that with her coy smile she was obviously checking out his ass.

Me: How can she do that?

Her: She's the queen, she can what she wants.

Me: No, I mean he's wearing armor.

Her: Dork!

Oh, and Jorah Mormont, you are a bigger pussy than Steadman and Robert Dudley combined.

[JLTucker]

I actually felt sorry for Joffrey. He looked like a helpless child.

[JME2]

I actually felt sorry for Joffrey. He looked like a helpless child.

That's why you feel just a smidgen of sympathy for Cersei.

Despite their many faults and fucked up nature, she's a mother who got to watch her eldest child die a slow, horrible death.

[JLTucker]

I've begun to read the series and am enjoying it a lot. The series is proof positive that book adaptations should be made with television in mind.

[Ralin]

I actually felt sorry for Joffrey. He looked like a helpless child.

That's why you feel just a smidgen of sympathy for Cersei.

Despite their many faults and fucked up nature, she's a mother who got to watch her eldest child die a slow, horrible death.

On some levels you could say that Joffery is sympathetic in that it wasn't like he chose to be an incest baby raised by an evil insane woman and a drunken rapist who solved all of his problems via violence.

But, you know. Fuck that, it's Joffery. I don't think any of us want to ruin the moment.

[Block]

I actually felt sorry for Joffrey. He looked like a helpless child.

That's why you feel just a smidgen of sympathy for Cersei.

Despite their many faults and fucked up nature, she's a mother who got to watch her eldest child die a slow, horrible death.

And deserved it. The whole family deserves every last bit of it, because all of their manipulation and desire for power has killed plenty of mothers, fathers, daughters and sons. Hell, Tywin JUST had the same thing done to the Starks. Jamie at least has started to learn.... something, although that took losing a hand and almost dying to his own hubris multiple times.

[Scrib]

What has Jaime learned? This is the same guy that went around sleeping with the queen while knowing that it'd get him and his entire family-and the various bannermen that would have to fight for his father- killed.The same guy that is STILL trying to maintain that relationship after god knows how many people have died for it and Stannis is still out there The same guy that is (was) deadset on maintaining his vows to a sham of a king who is clearly being propped up by the same family you claim to despise, one that he's even worse than. Not to mention that he's partly doing this so he can continue the aforementioned incestuous relationship

If Jaime has learned anything it's being more appealing to a TV audience.

That said: I still feel sympathy for Cersei and I think she's a fucking moron that gets faaar too much credit. No one thinks they're evil,and to non-evil people it sucks to see your kids die like that.

[Ziggy Stardust]

What has Jaime learned? This is the same guy that went around sleeping with the queen while knowing that it'd get him and his entire family-and the various bannermen that would have to fight for his father- killed.The same guy that is STILL trying to maintain that relationship after god knows how many people have died for it and Stannis is still out there The same guy that is (was) deadset on maintaining his vows to a sham of a king who is clearly being propped up by the same family you claim to despise, one that he's even worse than. Not to mention that he's partly doing this so he can continue the aforementioned incestuous relationship

If Jaime has learned anything it's being more appealing to a TV audience.

I think this is an incredibly simplistic way to look at Jaime. I am not saying Jaime is all good, but you seem to be trying to imply he is being incestuous just for the sake of being evil, which is rather odd. It is clear that Jaime is actually in love with his sister; it is also clear he has a very complicated relationship with his father, and generally comes from a pretty fucked up family life. You also seem to have missed the fact that his story line is a CONSTANT commentary on the nature of "honor" and responsibility, and the way that Jaime's actions are heavily constrained by societal expectation.

I'm not saying you should LIKE Jaime, but I think you aren't quite viewing his storyline the right way.

[Scrib]

What has Jaime learned? This is the same guy that went around sleeping with the queen while knowing that it'd get him and his entire family-and the various bannermen that would have to fight for his father- killed.The same guy that is STILL trying to maintain that relationship after god knows how many people have died for it and Stannis is still out there The same guy that is (was) deadset on maintaining his vows to a sham of a king who is clearly being propped up by the same family you claim to despise, one that he's even worse than. Not to mention that he's partly doing this so he can continue the aforementioned incestuous relationship

If Jaime has learned anything it's being more appealing to a TV audience.

I think this is an incredibly simplistic way to look at Jaime. I am not saying Jaime is all good, but you seem to be trying to imply he is being incestuous just for the sake of being evil, which is rather odd. It is clear that Jaime is actually in love with his sister; it is also clear he has a very complicated relationship with his father, and generally comes from a pretty fucked up family life. You also seem to have missed the fact that his story line is a CONSTANT commentary on the nature of "honor" and responsibility, and the way that Jaime's actions are heavily constrained by societal expectation.

Of course he isn't fucking his sister to be evil . However, it's irrelevant. At a certain point you have to ask yourself what sort of harm is being caused by your actions regardless of whatever romantic bullshit fills your head. Robb Stark doesn't get a pass so why would Jaime? What exactly have we heard that will justify this? That Tywin forced Tyrion to rape his own wife? He seems to have a particular dislike of The Imp. That he forced him to read? That he isn't the most warm parent? Please.

As for the whole honor thing: sure-in the books. But this isn't the book thread is it? As far as I can tell we've only heard Jaime talk about the dilemma between maintaining one's vows to both a bad king and to the people. Well, that and his desire to keep his oath as a Kingsguard. Good for him,if a little late, though I think he'll be quite happy to continue hanging around his sister.

At the end of the day Jaime is still one of the Lannisters and I've yet to see a

I'm not saying you should LIKE Jaime, but I think you aren't quite viewing his storyline the right way.

Well, I'll get right on fixing that.

I don't even dislike Jaime tbh. I think that, if you decide that serving an evil family is evil as Block does, his switch from the dark side is greatly exaggerated, especially at this point in the story.

[Ralin]

As for the whole honor thing: sure-in the books. But this isn't the book thread is it? As far as I can tell we've only heard Jaime talk about the dilemma between maintaining one's vows to both a bad king and to the people. Well, that and his desire to keep his oath as a Kingsguard. Good for him,if a little late, though I think he'll be quite happy to continue hanging around his sister.

I think the implication (book and show) is more that Jaime is tired of being used and manipulated and hated for probably the most heroic thing he ever did and that he just wants to do the ONE FUCKING THING he's ever been proud of: his duty as one of the Kingsguard.

Like I said; not a good person, but there's definitely a good person buried in there somewhere. All of the Lannister children have their bad sides, but I don't see Cersei jumping into any bear pits or doing much of anything with what power she does have to help anyone other than herself and her children

And let’s not kid ourselves. Jaime isn’t exactly doing any great harm to anyone by staying in the Kingsguard. The cripple who can’t wield a sword worth a damn anymore was not going to prolong Joffery’s reign in any event.

[Block]

I don't even dislike Jaime tbh. I think that, if you decide that serving an evil family is evil as Block does, his switch from the dark side is greatly exaggerated, especially at this point in the story.

I just said he's learning. He is very very slowly coming to the realization that there is more than family, that he has a duty to the small folk, etc. I'm not saying he's a good person, I'm not saying he'll ever become one, but he's the only character that shows any sort of progress towards becoming something other than the heartless sociopath that 95% of the main characters are.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Of course he isn't fucking his sister to be evil . However, it's irrelevant. At a certain point you have to ask yourself what sort of harm is being caused by your actions regardless of whatever romantic bullshit fills your head. Robb Stark doesn't get a pass so why would Jaime? What exactly have we heard that will justify this? That Tywin forced Tyrion to rape his own wife? He seems to have a particular dislike of The Imp. That he forced him to read? That he isn't the most warm parent? Please.

I don't particularly understand the point you are trying to make here, or how this reflects back on what I said. What do Robb and Tyrion have to do with my point that Jaime is more complex than you give him credit for?

As for the whole honor thing: sure-in the books. But this isn't the book thread is it? As far as I can tell we've only heard Jaime talk about the dilemma between maintaining one's vows to both a bad king and to the people. Well, that and his desire to keep his oath as a Kingsguard. Good for him,if a little late, though I think he'll be quite happy to continue hanging around his sister.

I wasn't talking about the books. I have never read a single page of the books, and I don't plan on ever reading them in all honesty. Everything I talked about is directly from the show. That you missed it is not my problem.

Well, I'll get right on fixing that.

I don't even dislike Jaime tbh. I think that, if you decide that serving an evil family is evil as Block does, his switch from the dark side is greatly exaggerated, especially at this point in the story.

Again, you completely missed my point. Though, I guess I shouldn't be surprised considering you are apparently incapable of reading subtext or thematic relevance. I am not saying that Jaime has "switched from the dark side", whatever the hell that means, or anything even remotely resembling that. My point was that viewing Jaime at all in terms of "deerp he's evil" OR "deerpp now he's good" is simplistic and pointlessly reductionist. It glosses over the complexity of his character (again, his complexity as demonstrated in the show, I have no idea how he is portrayed in the books and couldn't care less) and the thematic relevance of his subplot.