GoT: S2 Clash of Kings ***SPOILERS***

[spaceviking]

So I'm guessing they are going to have The Red wedding, Jofrree poisoning, and a third event happening at the same time as the final scene.

[Mr Bean]

So I'm guessing they are going to have The Red wedding, Jofrree poisoning, and a third event happening at the same time as the final scene.

You guess incorrectly or correctly.

It's for sure now that Storm of swords got approved that Season 3 and 4 are that book, and from talks and hints from the scriptwriters, the two producers and George himself Episode 30 will be "A Wedding" the question is how much of the Wedding we will get, what will be shown what not since the Wedding itself can't eat up an entire hour. I'm guessing they will get real wonky with the chronology and have Astapor and the Wedding + The north as contrasts

[spaceviking]

In my head it plays out like the two traumatic events happening, with Lord baelish smirking while writing letters. Kind of god father eske.

[Guardsman Bass]

My guess is that Season 3 will end with

1. The Red Wedding

2. The capture of Astapor, although it makes you wonder what Daenerys will do for ten episodes. She spent most of the post-Qarth, pre-Astapor time on ship.

3. The Wildling attack on Castle Black from south of the Wall, where Ygritte gets killed.

I doubt the latter two will happen in the last episode. It will be a combination Arya/Robb/Catelyn episode, with Arya and the Hound getting closer to the Twins, while Robb and Catelyn meet their fate. That's how the book was, too - short Arya and Catelyn chapters intertwined, with Arya getting so close before the betrayal happens and the Hound carries her away to safety. If we see Jon and Sam at all, it will be short bits and pieces, with Sam introducing Bran to Coldhands, and Jon reeling from the southern attack and preparing for Mance's main force.

[Mr Bean]

Yes that's right with nothing to do they might move Astapor earlier in the series and end episode Ten with the surrender of Yunkai, I forgot about the Mother scene when all the slaves come out chanting her name and title, Mother in a dozen tongues in ten thousand voices. Now that I can see that in my mind I can see it making a great transiting to the Red Wedding's red portion of the entertainment. Downer ending John kills Ygritte, uplifting Danny frees the slaves, super double downer cliffhanger of the breaking of guest-right an death of Rob Stark.

[Vaporous]

i just hope they get the tone right. editing that entire episode is going to be delicate. in the books you had a larger than normal cluster of Cat/Arya chapters with things slowly spiraling towards doom and GRRM managed to build the tension brilliantly. You have things getting worse and worse in obvious ways, but you can still see a path where it all works out and yet there are also little hints that things might somehow be worse. And that continues all the way up to Cats last chapters, where even Frey's discourtesy seems ominous because he's not being enough of a dick, and you don't know whether or not that's actually suspicious or just a red herring. I wonder if they'll really make the effort to make sure the audience knows what the Rains of Castamere sounds like so that moment where you know everything is about to go insane hits properly.

[Thanas]

Yes that's right with nothing to do they might move Astapor earlier in the series and end episode Ten with the surrender of Yunkai, I forgot about the Mother scene when all the slaves come out chanting her name and title, Mother in a dozen tongues in ten thousand voices. Now that I can see that in my mind I can see it making a great transiting to the Red Wedding's red portion of the entertainment. Downer ending John kills Ygritte, uplifting Danny frees the slaves, super double downer cliffhanger of the breaking of guest-right an death of Rob Stark.

I bet you ten bucks they are going to have astopor because iirc they showed some guys who look like unsullied. Or am I confusing these with quarth city guards?

[Guardsman Bass]

Did they have weird helmets? The Unsullied had helmets with a spike on top in the book.

i just hope they get the tone right. editing that entire episode is going to be delicate. in the books you had a larger than normal cluster of Cat/Arya chapters with things slowly spiraling towards doom and GRRM managed to build the tension brilliantly. You have things getting worse and worse in obvious ways, but you can still see a path where it all works out and yet there are also little hints that things might somehow be worse. And that continues all the way up to Cats last chapters, where even Frey's discourtesy seems ominous because he's not being enough of a dick, and you don't know whether or not that's actually suspicious or just a red herring.

Agreed. The tension in those final Catelyn chapters is so thick it's almost sickening to read, which makes the betrayal all the more devastating when it happens.

What the show needs to do is sell us on the idea that there's a way out of this. Make the audience (or at least the non-book audience) believe that Robb's got a plan (like he had in the books), and everything is going to turn out all right - Robb will get north of Moat Cailin, he'll crush the Boltons, relieve the Wall, and so forth. That will make the Red Wedding all the more tragic and shocking when it happens.

[Mr Bean]

I bet you ten bucks they are going to have astopor because iirc they showed some guys who look like unsullied. Or am I confusing these with quarth city guards?

Quarth have unsullied, most of the eastern cities have some. It's nice to be able to call on small units of utterly loyal unbreakable soldiers who have literally had the ability to feel pain and get ideas above their station stripped from them by being brainwashed for over a decade.

In the books the Cheese monger (Illyrio Mopatis) had a hundred or so for guarding his mance. They are described as very ethnic (Everyone from dothraki to pentousi end up in slavery and being turned into unsullied) wearing a spiked cap (A very Prussian hat ) spears and whatever armor their owner dresses them in.

[Thanas]

I bet you ten bucks they are going to have astopor because iirc they showed some guys who look like unsullied. Or am I confusing these with quarth city guards?

Quarth have unsullied, most of the eastern cities have some. It's nice to be able to call on small units of utterly loyal unbreakable soldiers who have literally had the ability to feel pain and get ideas above their station stripped from them by being brainwashed for over a decade.

In the books the Cheese monger (Illyrio Mopatis) had a hundred or so for guarding his mance. They are described as very ethnic (Everyone from dothraki to pentousi end up in slavery and being turned into unsullied) wearing a spiked cap (A very Prussian hat ) spears and whatever armor their owner dresses them in.

The spiked cap, as well as the inspiration for the unsullied, is entirely drawn from the medieval saracen and Ottoman armies.

[fgalkin]

Yeah, its got credits written all over it. They might also play it over the actual event, with all other sound muted. That could work too.

The fact that they have already recorded it now and included it in the soundtrack leads me to the possibility that they'll play it in the credits for the Battle of the Blackwater as well.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Guardsman Bass]

I bet you ten bucks they are going to have astopor because iirc they showed some guys who look like unsullied. Or am I confusing these with quarth city guards?

Quarth have unsullied, most of the eastern cities have some. It's nice to be able to call on small units of utterly loyal unbreakable soldiers who have literally had the ability to feel pain and get ideas above their station stripped from them by being brainwashed for over a decade.

In the books the Cheese monger (Illyrio Mopatis) had a hundred or so for guarding his mance. They are described as very ethnic (Everyone from dothraki to pentousi end up in slavery and being turned into unsullied) wearing a spiked cap (A very Prussian hat ) spears and whatever armor their owner dresses them in.

The whole "disciplined spear-wielders in ranks" is especially promising. I wonder if Daenerys (or one of her people) could train them to form massed pike formations in order to break up charges by groups of knights.

[Thanas]

That is not their fighting styles. They are janissaries, not tercio men or landsknechte.

[fgalkin]

Ahahaha, no. Martin doesn't really understand medieval warfare, which is why he has wisely stayed away from large battles (except Blackwater). The Unsullied are a joke, taking the worst "hur hur brutal training" cliches, and then training them for completely the wrong thing. I mean, even leaving aside the fact that it's incredibly stupid from an economic point of view (training someone from childhood is EXPENSIVE, and then they cull 2/3s of them. And these are supposed to be MERCHANTS?) and the whole blind obedience system is retarded, as Dany herself demonstrated; their training would make them fairly worthless on the battlefield. The only reason they are feared is because the Dothraki are literally Klingons on horses and demonstrate a level of incompetence that would make Trek writers cringe.

You could raise equip 10 Mamlukes for the price of one Unsullied, and they could propably take on and curbstomp 3x their number in the dickless retards.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

Ahahaha, no.

Are you disagreeing with me or the idea of using them as pike formations?

The Unsullied are a joke, taking the worst "hur hur brutal training" cliches, and then training them for completely the wrong thing. I mean, even leaving aside the fact that it's incredibly stupid from an economic point of view (training someone from childhood is EXPENSIVE, and then they cull 2/3s of them. And these are supposed to be MERCHANTS?)

Well, the mamluks were trained from adolescence and in some cases from childhood as well. The culling is the real stupidity, not the training in itself.

[fgalkin]

I don't mean that training them from childhood is stupid. I mean their actual training is retarded. They do everything in their power to destroy unit cohesion and initiative, then place them under the buyer's own officers who likely have no idea what they're doing (if they did, they could just train their own troops in Old Imperial formation, whatever that is, and wouldn't need to buy Unsullied). I think the problems with that are fairly self-evident.

EDIT:

Are you disagreeing with me or the idea of using them as pike formations?

The Ahahaha bit was re:Guardsman. Sorry

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Spoonist]

Uhm we get plenty of pretty stupid shit regarding the fighting styles in the sunnier empires. So the unsullied are better than those. But the westeros knight(s) with D all say they'd rather have more knights than unsullied etc. So its not a complete hard training hur hur trope.
The examples of warrior slaves fighting in chains comes to mind. or stilts etc

[Mr Bean]

That is not their fighting styles. They are janissaries, not tercio men or landsknechte.

In the descriptions of the unsullied they are supposedly modeled on hoplites or legionnaries.
As for the training yes it's extreme however Astapor is rich in human lives. As well the training kills most of them not the culling it seems since they are required to run around in the sun with heavy packs up and down mountains as well as the supposed two big gates where they are required to kill the puppy after there first year and a slave baby to earn the spiked hat. The baby is obviously wasteful and the training pointlessly harsh (But hell that's a lesson real life armies have only finally started learning that there are certain things you can do they just fuck up your soldiers bodies for no gain over alternative training methods)

OAN, Slavers Bay stands out from all of Martins work as the real Captain Planet villainy section of the books. Everyone else in the books (Even the Tattered Prince) are all these real believable characters and here come the Wise Masters and the rest of the leadership in Slavers bay and they do everything but twirl there mustaches as they try to close down the local Youth Center so they can build a new railroad to tie ladies too.

[fgalkin]

In fact, let's look at the account of the battle that establishes their reputation:

During the first day of the fighting the Dothraki were unmatched, Qohor forces were shattered, its heavy horse annihilated and the sellsword companies had fled in the face of hopeless odds. The Dothraki had retired to their camps to drink, feast and rest. before their final assault at dawn brake. However, during the night, the three thousand Unsullied has finally reached the city and come dawn, was waiting the Dothraki horde arrayed in battle formation before the city gates. The Dothraki, could have easily out flank such a small force but in their contempt for infantry, launched a direct frontal assault, in an attempt to simply ride down the heavy infantry. Eighteen times they charged and attacked the Unsullied ranks and Thrice their archers wheeling past raining arrows on the Three Thousand, each time failing to break through. Finally the Dothraki halted their attacks after the Khal, his bloodriders and sons had been killed. Their losses were staggering: 12.000 dead. Only 600 Unsullied remained, but the victory was theirs nonetheless. Four days later, the new khal led his remaining khalasar past the city gates in a stately procession. Each man cut off his braid and threw it down before the Unsullied.

This scenario is literally impossible. 3000 Unsullied in a square, say, 10 deep (anything less would have trouble holding a charge with their light spears) is 300 men to a side. That's a front of 150 meters at the most. There is literally no place for 12 thousand dead horses around them.

Even leaving that aside, the Dothraki, instead of outflanking them, keeping back and tearing them apart with bows, or just going around them and sacking the city anyways, or using literally ANY advantage cavalry has over infantry, keep charging head-on For Honor until they're all dead. They actually manage to break them (600 Unsullied is not enough to form a proper square, and at 12k horsemen dead, there won't be a single unbroken spear left), but instead they withdraw and surrender. What are they, fucking Minbari?

This scenario is so bloody ludicrous I have no words for it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

Was that not covered in the book?

Yep covered in Google Books, here's the relevant section
http://books.google.com/books?id=rIj5x- ... &q&f=false

So yes Dothraki pride leads them to charge a spear wall over and over because they are infantry fit only to be ridden down.
Yes it's silly, again Captain Planet level.

[fgalkin]

That is not their fighting styles. They are janissaries, not tercio men or landsknechte.

In the descriptions of the unsullied they are supposedly modeled on hoplites or legionnaries.
As for the training yes it's extreme however Astapor is rich in human lives. As well the training kills most of them not the culling it seems since they are required to run around in the sun with heavy packs up and down mountains as well as the supposed two big gates where they are required to kill the puppy after there first year and a slave baby to earn the spiked hat. The baby is obviously wasteful and the training pointlessly harsh (But hell that's a lesson real life armies have only finally started learning that there are certain things you can do they just fuck up your soldiers bodies for no gain over alternative training methods)

1) They are not hoplites, as they are explicitly depicted as light infantry. They are also not using the Macedonian formation with the sarissas, as that would have been mentioned in the book. The real advantage of the Roman system was that it allowed a great deal of tactical flexibility and allowed the unit commanders to exploit conditions on the ground. The Unsullied training negates that.
2) Yes, that's what I mean by "hur hur brutal training." It serves absolutely no purpose for a unit whose purpose is to fight in close formation and is needlessly wasteful. Individual superiority doesn't matter in a phalanx, mass of numbers for the push does. Astapor should have gone bankrupt long ago.

OAN, Slavers Bay stands out from all of Martins work as the real Captain Planet villainy section of the books. Everyone else in the books (Even the Tattered Prince) are all these real believable characters and here come the Wise Masters and the rest of the leadership in Slavers bay and they do everything but twirl there mustaches as they try to close down the local Youth Center so they can build a new railroad to tie ladies too.

Pretty much, yeah. There is simply no way the things described there could exist for so long because people are neither robots nor idiots and someone would have kicked the morons down long ago.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

Was that not covered in the book?

Yep covered in Google Books, here's the relevant section
http://books.google.com/books?id=rIj5x- ... &q&f=false

So yes Dothraki pride leads them to charge a spear wall over and over because they are infantry fit only to be ridden down.
Yes it's silly, again Captain Planet level.

Uhhh...that's exactly what I quoted above? That's my point, though. The only reason the Unsullied got their reputation is that the Dothraki are Klingons on Horses.

How the Mongol knockoffs get their reputation for fearsomeness is beyond me (I mean, really. Unlike the Mongols, they have no siege weapons. What's to stop people from simply shutting their gates and waiting until they all starve and go away?).

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Mr Bean]

[quote="fgalkin"]What's to stop people from simply shutting their gates and waiting until they all starve and go away?).
The Dothraki rape and pillage the land, if you don't face them they will sweep your lands, burning everything they can, raping and selling into bondage anyone not in a walled city and generally wreck your shit and leave, then hit you again the next year. They don't take castles to be sure but they sure as hell can destroy everything else that makes up a country except the castles. They have an early primitive form of total war where they just leave for awhile then give the people a week or two of peace then double back and smash anything they left intact the first time.

And that's based on the show not the books. Where Robert describes how the Dothraki deal with walled cities (IE ignore them and burn the rest of the country down then double back once planting season starts)

[Guardsman Bass]

Ahahaha, no. Martin doesn't really understand medieval warfare, which is why he has wisely stayed away from large battles (except Blackwater). The Unsullied are a joke, taking the worst "hur hur brutal training" cliches, and then training them for completely the wrong thing. I mean, even leaving aside the fact that it's incredibly stupid from an economic point of view (training someone from childhood is EXPENSIVE, and then they cull 2/3s of them. And these are supposed to be MERCHANTS?) and the whole blind obedience system is retarded, as Dany herself demonstrated; their training would make them fairly worthless on the battlefield. The only reason they are feared is because the Dothraki are literally Klingons on horses and demonstrate a level of incompetence that would make Trek writers cringe.

Oh, I'm not praising their ludicrous training regime. I just thought that they were trained specifically for massed spears in formation, and was wondering if that could be adapted for forming disciplined pike formations. Apparently not.

The training regime makes more sense as something to "wow" potential buyers who don't know better. "Yeah, Mr. Rich Person, our soldiers are so hard core they kill anyone on command and are totally obedient!"

Even leaving that aside, the Dothraki, instead of outflanking them, keeping back and tearing them apart with bows, or just going around them and sacking the city anyways, or using literally ANY advantage cavalry has over infantry, keep charging head-on For Honor until they're all dead. They actually manage to break them (600 Unsullied is not enough to form a proper square, and at 12k horsemen dead, there won't be a single unbroken spear left), but instead they withdraw and surrender. What are they, fucking Minbari?

We don't know enough about Qohor's geography to guess whether or they could have ridden around and sacked the city. All we know is that the city is inland, either next to or inside a big forest.

OAN, Slavers Bay stands out from all of Martins work as the real Captain Planet villainy section of the books. Everyone else in the books (Even the Tattered Prince) are all these real believable characters and here come the Wise Masters and the rest of the leadership in Slavers bay and they do everything but twirl there mustaches as they try to close down the local Youth Center so they can build a new railroad to tie ladies too.

Unfortunately true. The farther you get from the Free Cities, the more stereotypically decadent and ridiculous the cities get (although Volantis has a really lopsided slave-to-free ratio as well: 5 to 1).

How the Mongol knockoffs get their reputation for fearsomeness is beyond me (I mean, really. Unlike the Mongols, they have no siege weapons. What's to stop people from simply shutting their gates and waiting until they all starve and go away?).

As Bean said, the Dothraki can ravage the hinterland that the cities depend upon for food and raw materials, and interdict any overland trade. The Free Cities are rich enough to import food, at least for a while, but that's expensive and difficult.

[fgalkin]

The Dothraki rape and pillage the land, if you don't face them they will sweep your lands, burning everything they can, raping and selling into bondage anyone not in a walled city and generally wreck your shit and leave, then hit you again the next year. They don't take castles to be sure but they sure as hell can destroy everything else that makes up a country except the castles. They have an early primitive form of total war where they just leave for awhile then give the people a week or two of peace then double back and smash anything they left intact the first time.

And that's based on the show not the books. Where Robert describes how the Dothraki deal with walled cities (IE ignore them and burn the rest of the country down then double back once planting season starts)

That's from the series, not the book and it still doesn't justify the terror they inspire. Nomads' movements are not random, but highly specific and remain the same for generations. They are also dependent on settled peoples' for everything they can't make on their own, as well as good weapons, luxury goods, etc. The combination of the above means that they pass through the same regions over and over, and so they cannot devastate them too badly. What they would do is simply ride up to the city and demand their yearly ransom to piss off (I believe this is what they do in the books).

However, by doing so, they relegate themselves from the category of "unholy terror" to "yearly nuisance." Familiarity breeds contempt, and no one would consider a force that lacks the ability to consistently capture cities to be more than a moderate threat.

Of course, in our world, the threat of steppe raiders has led to the creation of fortified bordermarches, but the people of Essos are apparently utter morons when it comes to military matters.

Oh, I'm not praising their ludicrous training regime. I just thought that they were trained specifically for massed spears in formation, and was wondering if that could be adapted for forming disciplined pike formations. Apparently not.

The training regime makes more sense as something to "wow" potential buyers who don't know better. "Yeah, Mr. Rich Person, our soldiers are so hard core they kill anyone on command and are totally obedient!"

One does not need to kill 2/3s of them to do that. Also, those ludicrously expensive Unsullied would consistently fail to live up to their reputation when faced with real professionals, such as the Sellsword companies because they will be shodily led by shitty officers who wouldn't know how to use their potential and lack the initiative to do anything on their own.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin