Scarlet-Spider vs Jedi

FAN: Discuss various fictional worlds that don't qualify for SF.

Moderator: Steve

Locked

Who wins in a straight fight?

Poll ended at 2003-07-18 04:48pm

Ben easily
9
22%
Ben manges to take down a jedi but its hard
2
5%
They fight to a stand still
2
5%
Jedi just manges to take it
8
20%
Jedi with ease
20
49%
 
Total votes: 41

User avatar
Strider119
Youngling
Posts: 75
Joined: 2003-05-21 06:37pm

Post by Strider119 »

Ghost Rider wrote:For easy summary.
Strider: nice of you to point out something I already did...and oh looky Spiderman is faster then a human being...no shit, really?
I was just doing you a favor by throwing out the SPECIFIC lines in the movie that say that LUKE IS NOT a light side jedi.

And the loose calculation in the last post wasn't to show that he is faster than a human, but to show that he is faster than a Jedi

100 superstrength punches per second right in a persons face have a tendency to hurt




your friendly neighborhood,
Strider119
Think you can cook? I got a grappling hook
Let's make this quick cuz I'm really booked
I'm a devious degenerate, defender of the devil
Shut down all the trash compactor's on the detention level

My backpack's got jets
I'm boba the fett
I bounty hunt for jaba hut
To finance my vette
I chill in deep space
A mask is over my face
I deliver the prize but I still narrow my eyes
Cuz my time I don't like to waste.
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote:For easy summary.

SAMAS: Yes the Jedi is standing there dumbfounded. :roll:

Strider: nice of you to point out something I already did...and oh looky Spiderman is faster then a human being...no shit, really?

So anymore nitpicks?
Straw man.

Do better.
FOG3
Jedi Knight
Posts: 728
Joined: 2003-06-17 02:36pm

Post by FOG3 »

Someone was asking about Luke's choking of the Gamorean guards from the novel in this thread? The relevant passage:
Luke raised his hand and pointed at the guards. Before either could draw a weapon, they were both clutching their own throatsd, choking, gasping. They fell to their knees.

Luke lowered his hand and walked on. The guards, suddenly able to breath again, slumped to the sanddrifted steps. They didn't follow.


However do not forget Jedi have used the force to destroy multiple battle droids as seen in TPM. Sure punches :roll: , that assumes you overcome the Jedi's range advantage with a light saber and the Jedi doesn't just spin the blade in front of them removing Spidey's hands. Need I remind you that dismembering is not looked down upon by the Jedi.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

KK wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:For easy summary.

SAMAS: Yes the Jedi is standing there dumbfounded. :roll:

Strider: nice of you to point out something I already did...and oh looky Spiderman is faster then a human being...no shit, really?

So anymore nitpicks?
Straw man.

Do better.
Debate then...so far you got smacked by Wong and brought up nothing that wasn't said before.

So you enjoy the Broken Record Debate?
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote: Debate then...so far you got smacked by Wong and brought up nothing that wasn't said before.

So you enjoy the Broken Record Debate?
I guess you didn't read page 8, where you were unable to refute or even acknowledge the numerous points that were brought up.

Wongs entire argument hinged on the "fact" that the things DARTH FUCKING VADER pulled off a wall must have required many tons of casual force. Which is a) rediculous, and b) irrelevant, as we've made very, very, very fucking clear for you.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Nice you didn't refute it.

So which part was getting ya...the fact that Darth Vader was a Jedi or that Jedi have shown time and again to applying enough TK to kill another human being?
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

FOG3 wrote:Someone was asking about Luke's choking of the Gamorean guards from the novel in this thread? The relevant passage:
Luke raised his hand and pointed at the guards. Before either could draw a weapon, they were both clutching their own throatsd, choking, gasping. They fell to their knees.

Luke lowered his hand and walked on. The guards, suddenly able to breath again, slumped to the sanddrifted steps. They didn't follow.
NO!

Nobody was asking about that. We immediately and knowingly agreed that Luke force choked the guards. Would you stop using straw man to pretend all you have to do is prove he force choked to refute our argument?

We've made it very clear to you that Luke force choking means two things in regards to real Jedi. Jack, followed by shit.
However do not forget Jedi have used the force to destroy multiple battle droids as seen in TPM.


They didn't even do that. You would have us believe they dismantled them bolt by bolt and tore them into scrap metal. All they did was push them. And even at that, battle droids are not living beings. That ammounts to shoving machines.
Sure punches :roll: , that assumes you overcome the Jedi's range advantage with a light saber


Which Ben can easily do. He's only fought sword-welders like 100 times.

When you are many times faster than your opponent and have a spider-sense that makes your body move on reflex to avoid danger, to the degree that you can dodge continual machine-gun fire while facing backwards, a blade is not a thread.

Spider-Man can punch 100 times a second. The Jedi won't know what hit him.
and the Jedi doesn't just spin the blade in front of them removing Spidey's hands. Need I remind you that dismembering is not looked down upon by the Jedi.
Which Spidey would avoid and then punch the Jedi in the back of the head.
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote:Nice you didn't refute it.

So which part was getting ya...the fact that Darth Vader was a Jedi or that Jedi have shown time and again to applying enough TK to kill another human being?
I think it was one of these:

1. Vader WASN'T a Jedi.

2. When Vader was a Jedi, he was the most powerful one ever, and thus not representative of the average. (It's like using Jesus Christ as a representation of the average human)

3. Spidey is far from a human being.

4. Hinging your entire argument on "Throwing the machines probably required 15 tons of casual force" is rediculous.

5. Yoda has proven time and again that he requires strain and concentration to apply that much force.

6. The argument about the Jedi being weaker in AotC is unsubstantiated bullshit, considering the only thing they actually said was that the dark side clouded their vision.

7. All the stuff about why Luke doesn't represent a real Jedi.

Take your pick.
User avatar
Strider119
Youngling
Posts: 75
Joined: 2003-05-21 06:37pm

Post by Strider119 »

Ghost Rider wrote:...the fact that Darth Vader was a Jedi...
Well I wouldn't expect you to try and refute me if I brought up feats of supermans, so why would we try and refute feats of vaders? they both have nothing to do with the argument at hand, thus there should be no need to even acknowledge them

the debate is about LIGHT SIDE JEDI

....

VADER IS NOT A LIGHT SIDE JEDI



I can say it a bunch of more times if you need me to ... and I have a sneaking suspicion that you will





2 leit 2 quit:
Strider119
Think you can cook? I got a grappling hook
Let's make this quick cuz I'm really booked
I'm a devious degenerate, defender of the devil
Shut down all the trash compactor's on the detention level

My backpack's got jets
I'm boba the fett
I bounty hunt for jaba hut
To finance my vette
I chill in deep space
A mask is over my face
I deliver the prize but I still narrow my eyes
Cuz my time I don't like to waste.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Ah and still doesn't get the small point that all the Jedi would need is to give Spidey's Trachea a bit of nudge.

Or are we going to hear that Spidey's wind pipe can withstand multi tons worth of force?

or since he altered th rules...hold Spidey while his Spidey Sense is tingling.

Or do you want to back to Ender's point...of you thinking Spidey has microsecond reflexes, yet is hit by Kingpin.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote:Ah and still doesn't get the small point that all the Jedi would need is to give Spidey's Trachea a bit of nudge.
*bitchslap*

If you're going to keep acting like a bitch, I'm going to treat you like one.

Have the goddamn common curtesy to acknowledge points when we bring them up instead of this shit where you close your eyes and pretend we haven't already torn your argument up and down.

1. The Jedi would have to do alot more than "a bit of a nudge."

2. Random Jedi #495.

Darth Vader, born of midichlorians with the highest count of them ever, plus power of the dark side.

The two are not interchangable.

3. Yoda has to struggle, strain, and concentrate to apply multi-tons of pressure. That does not go along well with your idea that the average Jedi can apply multi-tons of pressure with a casual thought.

4. Even Luke, who your "Jedi force-choker" argument relies solely on, had great trouble lifting small rocks, and flat out couldn't lift his X-Wing out of the mud.

5. Even if you had the slightest argument to back up Jedi force-shoking, which you don't, Spidey has been punched in the neck by the Hulk, of all people.

Or do you want to back to Ender's point...of you thinking Spidey has microsecond reflexes, yet is hit by Kingpin.
Spider-Man DOES have microsecond reflexes. It has been plainly stated in the comics. He is hit be the Kingpin because ultimately the Spider-Sense responds accordingly to the degree of the danger.

As far as I remember, Kingpin's big claim was Spidey not being able to easily get out of a bear hug. I don't remember anything about Kingpin landing punches.

However, we have seen Spidey making the Silver Surfer and Firelord, interstellar heralds of Galactus, absolute statues compared to him. The Hulk is far faster than Kingpin (Wonder Man is amazed at his speed) and Spidey is always making him look like a statue.

When I say "making them a statue" I mean Spidey gets about a dozen attacks in from every angle you can imagine before they are even able to move.
FOG3
Jedi Knight
Posts: 728
Joined: 2003-06-17 02:36pm

Post by FOG3 »

KK wrote:Would you stop using straw man to pretend all you have to do is prove he force choked to refute our argument?
:roll: Do we have a bad memory? I, FOG3, have been advocating the superiority of a sword throughout. I haven't once brought up the Force choke issue. Oh gee, Spidey has taken down incomptent swordsmen, written by people who don't have a clue how to use a sword :roll:. The fools probably even had the edge-to-edge parry nonsense. So do several guys in Martial arts movies but if they went against someone competent in the use of a sword they'd be taken out in a matter of seconds. Have you ever considered that a Jedi could nullify Spidey's Spider Sense? Much like they cancel out each others powers? Hmm so now you're trying to claim a speed advantage?
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

FOG3 wrote: :roll: Do we have a bad memory? I, FOG3, have been advocating the superiority of a sword throughout.


I guess that explains why you posted text explaining Luke using the force choke.

Wait, no it doesn't.
I haven't once brought up the Force choke issue.


That wasn't you giving quotes to confirm that Luke used the force choke?

You should tell your friend/cousin/little brother/spouse to stop logging in under your name.

Oh gee, Spidey has taken down incomptent swordsmen,


The Silver Sable, one of the greatest swordsman(woman) in the Marvel Universe.

The Black Tarantula's ninjas, who have spent their entire lives training.

Bunch of idiots, those guys.

written by people who don't have a clue how to use a sword :roll:.


Enter George Lucas, master of the blade!
Have you ever considered that a Jedi could nullify Spidey's Spider Sense? Much like they cancel out each others powers?


Force users can cancel out the force, hence they can cancel out radiation-based superpowers.

Nice logic you have there.

I haven't considered it, because it's not worth considering.
Hmm so now you're trying to claim a speed advantage?
Yes, and quite a great one at that.
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11897
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Post by Crazedwraith »

FOG3 wrote:
KK wrote:Would you stop using straw man to pretend all you have to do is prove he force choked to refute our argument?
:roll: Do we have a bad memory? I, FOG3, have been advocating the superiority of a sword throughout. I haven't once brought up the Force choke issue. Oh gee, Spidey has taken down incomptent swordsmen, written by people who don't have a clue how to use a sword :roll:. The fools probably even had the edge-to-edge parry nonsense. So do several guys in Martial arts movies but if they went against someone competent in the use of a sword they'd be taken out in a matter of seconds. Have you ever considered that a Jedi could nullify Spidey's Spider Sense? Much like they cancel out each others powers? Hmm so now you're trying to claim a speed advantage?
Having a sword does mean anythink unless you can hit your oppenent. SS moves so quickly he can in hit from oppisites sides it rapid sucession.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

And the the comparison is human swordsmen vs Spiderman... is the same vs a pre-cog/supernatural being.

Oh yes...nice dodging there.

And if Spiderman/SS is so damned fast...that must make GG/Kingpin/Hulk/Doc Ock...and 95% of his rogue gallery in the microsecond range as well. :roll:
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Just wondering, do you think I'm lying about his speed?

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
FOG3
Jedi Knight
Posts: 728
Joined: 2003-06-17 02:36pm

Post by FOG3 »

KK wrote:That wasn't you giving quotes to confirm that Luke used the force choke?
I remember someone being curious whether Luke killed the Guards or not so I responded to that.I wasn't aware stating a neutral fact for that person is considered a full blown argument :roll:. Yeah I answer a query on whether Luke killed Gamoreans so I was advocating the use of Force Choke on SS. Sure that makes a lot of sense :roll:. Oh, so Spidey just happens to have a full blown mental shield :roll:, how convenient.
User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Post by Ghost Rider »

Nice pictures...so Kingpin, Electro, and multiple other who've hit him are in the same range, or are we going that they took him by surprise excuse?
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote:And the the comparison is human swordsmen vs Spiderman... is the same vs a pre-cog/supernatural being.

Oh yes...nice dodging there.
You can precog all you damn well please, but it's not a damn bit of good if you aren't fast enough to react.

And if Spiderman/SS is so damned fast...that must make GG/Kingpin/Hulk/Doc Ock...and 95% of his rogue gallery in the microsecond range as well. :roll:
They aren't (most of them), which is why Spidey makes them look like statues.

Hell, Green Goblin had to create a gas that disables the spider-sense because he couldn't win otherwise.

Doc Ock has hit Spidey with his tenticles. The fact that his tenticles are far faster than bullets doesn't hurt, I imagine.

Hulk is always a statue next to Spidey. Why even mention him?

Just wondering, have you ever read a comic book in your life?
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

Ghost Rider wrote:Nice pictures...so Kingpin, Electro, and multiple other who've hit him are in the same range, or are we going that they took him by surprise excuse?
Electro has an area-of-effect attack which when used properly can make dodging all but useless. When he tries straight blasts, Spidey dodges them every damn time. Why would you even mention him? He never hits Spidey unless he blasts the whole damn area, and Spidey can't get close enough to punch, since he is surrounded in electricity.

As for Kingpin, as I've only said three fucking times, and you've ignored three fucking times, I can't remember him ever connecting with a punch. He got Spidey in a bear-hug when Spidey tried grappling (meaning his speed wasn't a factor), and his big claim to fame is that Spidey couldn't easily break out of it.

Who are these multiple others? Lizard, Scorpion, and his rogues who also have incredible speed?

Mysterio and some others who much with his senses and spider-sense?

I'm not sure who you're speaking of.
KK
Village Idiot
Posts: 372
Joined: 2003-05-21 09:30pm
Location: Indiana

Post by KK »

FOG3 wrote: I remember someone being curious whether Luke killed the Guards or not so I responded to that.I wasn't aware stating a neutral fact for that person is considered a full blown argument :roll:. Yeah I answer a query on whether Luke killed Gamoreans so I was advocating the use of Force Choke on SS. Sure that makes a lot of sense :roll:. Oh, so Spidey just happens to have a full blown mental shield :roll:, how convenient.
I like how you play innocent until the last sentence.

But since you brought that last sentence up...

Thunderbolts #5: Spider-Man's spider-sense goes off when his mind is attacked (all of the Thunderbolts except M.A.C.H. 1 were posessed by the telepathic attack), and it creates feedback that protects his mind.

Peter Parker: Spider-Man #32: Spider-Man overcomes Fusion's telepathic assault.

By the way, stop using the damn :roll: smiley so much. It makes you look like a prick.
User avatar
SAMAS
Mecha Fanboy
Posts: 4078
Joined: 2002-10-20 09:10pm

Post by SAMAS »

[quote="Ghost Rider"]For easy summary.

SAMAS: Yes the Jedi is standing there dumbfounded. :roll: [quote]

Of course not. He's trying to free himself.

And Spidey is webbing him up further.

And the Jedi is working even harder to free himself.

And Spidey is webbing him up even further.

And the Jedi has to work even harder to free himself, while Spidey is, you guessed it, still webbing him up more.

You see, the initial wide blast of webbing isn't going to stop the Jedi, but the adhesiveness of the webbing means that his movements and reflexes are going to be slower, as his robes and limbs are getting stuck. This means that from each subsequent webbing, the Jedi's ability to fight drops further and further. This drop is going to get steeper and steeper the more the Jedi gets webbed up.

Eventually, either the Jedi will be completey immobilized, or Spidey will run out of webbing. But by the time the latter occurs, the Jedi's mobility will be severely compromised, if not to the point of, you guessed it, immobilization. Cue Assbeating, Spider-style.
Image
Not an armored Jigglypuff

"I salute your genetic superiority, now Get off my planet!!" -- Adam Stiener, 1st Somerset Strikers
Crazedwraith
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11897
Joined: 2003-04-10 03:45pm
Location: Cheshire, England

Post by Crazedwraith »

or with his foe praciticlly webbed up by the time he runs out he reloads his webb shotters with a new cartridge. Hence more webbing hnce less mobilized jedi hence SS whallops said random-jedi-who-cant-force-choke
User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70028
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Post by Darth Wong »

This thread is still here?

KK, thanks for posting yet another picture which DISPROVES your argument. Read the text: "Since my reflexes are as much as 40 times faster than a normal human's ..."

40 times faster. Typical human reaction time is about a half-second, which implies that Spidey can react in about .01 seconds. No microsecond reaction time here, pal. And since a Jedi can react BEFORE the event occurs, Spidey still loses.

PS. Your lame-ass argument about how neither Vader or Luke can be considered proof of Jedi force-choke capability is pathetic. They show that it CAN be done, so your only argument is that they WON'T do it, and there is not a shred of canon evidence to support that claim. Moreover, your ridiculous claim that Luke was using the dark side in the beginning of ROTJ is utterly without basis; there was not a shred of evidence for any Dark side leanings until Vader pushed him over the edge on DS2.
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html
User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 16351
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: Seriously thinking about moving to Marvel because so much of the DCEU stinks

Post by Batman »

Is it me, or is Spidey able to say several comlete sentences in some of the panels that supposedly show his very fast reflexes?
Now, does that mean he can talk really fast too? :P
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Locked