Game of Thrones Season 5 (TV ONLY)

[Sinewmire]

The most terrifying thing about the Sparrows is that they destroy all that wine. What the hell are the people drinking, water? You can smell the shit in kings landing from miles away, they'll die of dysentery before the first snows!

[Crown]

So if Cersai is getting locked up for her incestuous ways (they didn't really say though; did Lancel have anything else on her?) does that mean Tommen's useless ass is also destined for a cell?

Lancel would have (presumably) confessed to the High Sparrow that Cersei was guilty of adultery (and by extension incestuous relations as he and Cersei are first cousins) and possible regicide; he hasn't got any evidence on her affair with Jamie.

The blacksmith kid, right?

A bastard, with no claim to the throne. Shireen Baratheon would be next in line after Stannis (the Mannis).

That depends on how far this movement spreads. If it spreads to the Reach, the Riverlands, or anywhere else, it could be viewed as salvation from these scary Lord of Light worshippers who burn people alive, causing their numbers to swell.

They are strictly local in Kings Landing (maybe in the burnt out Riverlands too), but either way they can only operate in Kings Landing because the City Guard isn't slaughtering them (I suspect due to the fact that the common folk are close to riot against Cersei and her children). They have no power beyond the capital. The High Sparrow's bluff to Olenna is a misdirection; he holds her grandchildren hostage that's why she won't stop sending food, not because he could possibly pose any kind of threat to Highgarden its self via possible popular uprising.

[TheFeniX]

They are strictly local in Kings Landing (maybe in the burnt out Riverlands too), but either way they can only operate in Kings Landing because the City Guard isn't slaughtering them (I suspect due to the fact that the common folk are close to riot against Cersei and her children). They have no power beyond the capital. The High Sparrow's bluff to Olenna is a misdirection; he holds her grandchildren hostage that's why she won't stop sending food, not because he could possibly pose any kind of threat to Highgarden its self via possible popular uprising.

This kind of irked me: didn't they make it a point to show just how much the rabble love Margaery? No one is the least bit pissed she's in prison now? Wasn't "the faith" a bit of a joke? I'm sure there's more than enough faithful out there, but that faith didn't apply to the church: they were as corrupt as everyone else. So, new management comes in and feeds the people some food, same thing the Tyrell's have been doing and Margaery was doing personally, and they're "it's cool dude, it's cool."

Maybe I'm comparing this way too much to Rome, but the populace of King's Landing is a lot like the Stark Direwolves: they're around when the writers need them around. It's not even mentioned how they feel about the whole thing, with the notable exception of some comments thrown at Tommen.

Going big is what drove Rome to cancellation, but as much ground as GoTs covers, the show feels much smaller.

[FaxModem1]

It might have to do with faith, which is one of the few things the smallfolk have. Worry about your eternal soul and where you'll go after death would be enough motivation for anybody. So, even if the Queen is a nice charitable lady, you find out she's some sort of blasphemer or something to that effect, and she's automatically evil and must be imprisoned. Religion can have that kind of binary outlook on morality.

[TheFeniX]

It might have to do with faith, which is one of the few things the smallfolk have. Worry about your eternal soul and where you'll go after death would be enough motivation for anybody. So, even if the Queen is a nice charitable lady, you find out she's some sort of blasphemer or something to that effect, and she's automatically evil and must be imprisoned. Religion can have that kind of binary outlook on morality.

Granted, but worrying about your soul usually comes secondary to not starving to death. There's almost a cult of personality surrounding Margaery. Something Joffrey never had (or wanted). Sure, there's an old dude feeding them now, but who also now holds the position that the last guy lost because he was walked naked in the street for whoring. The High Septim is basically the pope, the voice of the Gods. His ousting in such a way should have rocked faith the church.

They've got nothing on Margaery as far as the people would be concerned. Any charges would likely be looked at as fraudulent. Same way few Northerners believed Ned was actually a traitor: they have no reason to believe people they have every reason to hate over those they know.

Like in Rome, the rabble used to be a "character" in GoT. Now they only exist as a few extras that might say something. I mean, does the entirety of information flow in KL happen through hearsay and bloody messages delivered via impaling them in someone's back with a dagger? They don't have criers or newsreporters? Man, Ian McNeice gave us some of the best scenes and exposition with his performance in Rome, but in GoT it's basically 6 people giving lines to one another or I just have to make wild guesses as to what's going on. And people might cry that HBO is copying itself, but a newreader is a pretty damned important person in a major cities with that level of technology. Maybe they all have magic ravens, who knows....

Obviously, they aren't starving much anymore since the Tyrell's showed up, so I don't need exposition on that front. It's implied well enough, but the gravy train's conductor just got abducted by fanatics who walk around the streets with tattoos engraved into skin and are about as emotional as a killbot. I don't see people just sitting around for that. Are they scared of the dudes busting up their wine? Do they agree with all the bullshit? Have they turned on Margaery or just don't care? I don't know and it's annoying.

[Balrog]

Now one understands why they built the Wall 700 feet high....

[Iroscato]

...
Oh my. That was er...wow.

[Block]

Now one understands why they built the Wall 700 feet high....

Yeah, no shit. That might be the first actually credible undead threat I've ever seen.

[FaxModem1]

Right, Valyrian steel and Dragon Glass, they're going to need a lot of it.

[Lord Revan]

Right, Valyrian steel and Dragon Glass, they're going to need a lot of it.

problem seems to be that both of those are "lost tech" so to speak with very few if any smiths capable of making Valyrian steel left and IIRC you need dragons to get dragon glass.

[FaxModem1]

I thought Dragon Glass was plain old obsidian, available at any volcano. Very hard for the Nights Watch to get to, of course, but at least would be possible for someone to acquire. Or is it magic rocks?

[streetad]

As far as we know it's just obsidian. Stannis mentioned they have it at Dragonstone...

[RogueIce]

Poor Jorah.

Well ok, I can see Tyrion's logic there, and while he did prevent Jorah from being killed I can see why he wouldn't enthusiastically endorse him for Dany's court. But still, I like him and hope to see him live. Preferably back at Dany's side...somehow.

And damn, those Wildling women who are reasonable to Jon Snow just can't catch a break, can they?

[Elfdart]

So why exactly didn't they break out torches (or anything else that would burn) and set them on fire?

Like this.


Even in a snowstorm they just light right up.

[TheFeniX]

Me: "They showed the scene about Mormont's sword being Valyrian Steel. Finally some whitewalker action."
Wife: "How do you know?"
Me: "Where is Jon going to be? Why else would they even bring that up? HBO is not clever enough to throw us curveballs."

"What happened to Mance?"
::long pause::
Jon: "I put an arrow through his heart."

Jon Snow: The master of leaving out critical details in an effort to get himself killed.

Well ok, I can see Tyrion's logic there, and while he did prevent Jorah from being killed I can see why he wouldn't enthusiastically endorse him for Dany's court. But still, I like him and hope to see him live. Preferably back at Dany's side...somehow.

I think it has a lot to do with the "I trust her, but not enough to tell her the truth" line. The moment he stopped the poison attempt, he should have come clean about his role. It might have lead to his death, but thems the breaks. He basically spent a few years withholding fairly important information from her. Meanwhile, Barristan and Daario threw themselves at her feet. She actually had good reason to have both of them killed on the spot: but they put trust in her and it paid off. Jorah wouldn't do that. And that's what you really need in the people at your side. Same with Tyrion saying that not only does she need to see if he is worth keeping around, but if he thinks she's worth standing with: you have to have trust both ways. I don't fully agree with the logic, but I understand it.

And damn, those Wildling women who are reasonable to Jon Snow just can't catch a break, can they?

Wildling woman: "I'll be right behind you."
Wife: "You never say that. Never ever ever!"
::shit goes downhill::
Me: "Offed by zombie kids, I feel like I'm being clubbed over the head with irony here."
Wife: "That's not ironic, it's just coincidental."
Me: "HA!"

Convenient the walkers pick THAT moment to show up. Did they sniff out the Crows were going to get the wildlings out and pushed then so they didn't lose the man/zombie power? Why did the blizzard shit only turn those outside into zombies and not walkers? Why did a 15-20 foot high gate stop the cold like that? Was it completely magical in nature? Winds should have been blowing over the top easily.

How many fucking cuts can you have in a fight scene? It was good and fun to watch, but I think the longest cut was when Jon was making his way to the hut to find the dragonglass. The rest was EXTREMELY hard to see what was going on. This is a major reason I don't like watching action movies anymore.

At least Kevan Lannister is coming back. Hopefully he'll get shit done. He has every reason to hate Cersei, but this would be the perfect time to bail her and Margaery out, get in good with Tommen (mommy fucked this all up because she loves you too much.), smash some fanatics to pieces, push Cercei off to the side (or back to Casterly Rock), and get shit back in order. I mean.... it probably won't happen, but you have to hope there is at least one sane man in King's Landing.

So why exactly didn't they break out torches (or anything else that would burn) and set them on fire?

Panic? I mean, wall of zombies and you're used to hacking shit to death with an axe or sword. Go to your bread and butter.

[Lord Revan]

it's King's Landing, there's probably "idiot juice" in the water there, if there ever is a sane man there it won't last.

[FaxModem1]

Me: "They showed the scene about Mormont's sword being Valyrian Steel. Finally some whitewalker action."
Wife: "How do you know?"
Me: "Where is Jon going to be? Why else would they even bring that up? HBO is not clever enough to throw us curveballs."

"What happened to Mance?"
::long pause::
Jon: "I put an arrow through his heart."

Jon Snow: The master of leaving out critical details in an effort to get himself killed.

Well ok, I can see Tyrion's logic there, and while he did prevent Jorah from being killed I can see why he wouldn't enthusiastically endorse him for Dany's court. But still, I like him and hope to see him live. Preferably back at Dany's side...somehow.

I think it has a lot to do with the "I trust her, but not enough to tell her the truth" line. The moment he stopped the poison attempt, he should have come clean about his role. It might have lead to his death, but thems the breaks. He basically spent a few years withholding fairly important information from her. Meanwhile, Barristan and Daario threw themselves at her feet. She actually had good reason to have both of them killed on the spot: but they put trust in her and it paid off. Jorah wouldn't do that. And that's what you really need in the people at your side. Same with Tyrion saying that not only does she need to see if he is worth keeping around, but if he thinks she's worth standing with: you have to have trust both ways. I don't fully agree with the logic, but I understand it.

And damn, those Wildling women who are reasonable to Jon Snow just can't catch a break, can they?

Wildling woman: "I'll be right behind you."
Wife: "You never say that. Never ever ever!"
::shit goes downhill::
Me: "Offed by zombie kids, I feel like I'm being clubbed over the head with irony here."
Wife: "That's not ironic, it's just coincidental."
Me: "HA!"

Convenient the walkers pick THAT moment to show up. Did they sniff out the Crows were going to get the wildlings out and pushed then so they didn't lose the man/zombie power? Why did the blizzard shit only turn those outside into zombies and not walkers? Why did a 15-20 foot high gate stop the cold like that? Was it completely magical in nature? Winds should have been blowing over the top easily.

How many fucking cuts can you have in a fight scene? It was good and fun to watch, but I think the longest cut was when Jon was making his way to the hut to find the dragonglass. The rest was EXTREMELY hard to see what was going on. This is a major reason I don't like watching action movies anymore.

At least Kevan Lannister is coming back. Hopefully he'll get shit done. He has every reason to hate Cersei, but this would be the perfect time to bail her and Margaery out, get in good with Tommen (mommy fucked this all up because she loves you too much.), smash some fanatics to pieces, push Cercei off to the side (or back to Casterly Rock), and get shit back in order. I mean.... it probably won't happen, but you have to hope there is at least one sane man in King's Landing.

So why exactly didn't they break out torches (or anything else that would burn) and set them on fire?

Panic? I mean, wall of zombies and you're used to hacking shit to death with an axe or sword. Go to your bread and butter.

I think it was less magical blizzard killing and turning all the people beyond the gate than the army of freaking zombies quickly turning a huge mass of unarmed people into wights/zombies and really boosting their manpower.

As for the wights? I've long held the theory that the white walkers have the navigational capability of Bugs Bunny, and keep making that wrong turn at Albuquerque, and can't remember which direction south is. That's why we haven't really seen them since the end of season 2/beginning of season 3.

[TheFeniX]

it's King's Landing, there's probably "idiot juice" in the water there, if there ever is a sane man there it won't last.

It's got to be. I get this is "Game of Thrones" and not "King's Landing" but there really needs to be more talk about the what's going on in the city. We know why Winterfell is having "no issues" (I use that phrase loosely). These people are beat up by war, probably half starved, winter is coming, and the Boltons flay you alive for any given reason. They handled all that with like.... 3 scenes and managed to put some more facetime to "Meet the crazy fucking Boltons" and I enjoyed watching those scenes.

But King's Landing is now run by a puppet who, until recently, was content to let his mom run everything (very poorly) while the King played doctor with his hot new bride. There's no longer a guy with a crown terrorizing them in the streets. They're fat and happy with all the Tyrell aide being offered and haven't seen hardship in a few years (although time is very subjective in GoTs). So why is there nothing mentioned about the peasantry and lesser houses getting pissed off fanatics are smashing all their wine and wrecking up the whore-houses? Aren't Tyrell soldiers keeping order in the streets? I get they'd take orders from the crown, but the crown isn't giving orders right now. Did Littlefinger handle all the back-stabbing and double-dealing in KL and it all fell apart without him? No one has attempted to take over the power vacuum?

Cersei seemed completely enthralled in her "fuck Margeary's shit up" crusade for months. Aside from sending Mace off somewhere, that's about it. No one is taking advantage of her narrow-sightedness? Tywin is toast, her hold on Tommen's balls in the only real power she has now and he's a love-sick puppy. This is King's Landing. You can't get up to piss without someone trying to oust you from your position or murder you horribly. All the people who kept that shit in check through either brutality, double-deals, or extortion are dead or gone.

I mean, I bought that a bunch of rich, fat, slave owners could put on masks and robes and wield shortblades then stand toe-to-toe with combat tested Unsullied wearing armor. It was dumb, but whatever. But I guess Cersei's ego sucked up all the intrigue that used to envelope KL.

I think it was less magical blizzard killing and turning all the people beyond the gate than the army of freaking zombies quickly turning a huge mass of unarmed people into wights/zombies and really boosting their manpower.

Ok, so Blizzard brings in the zombies, they eat everyone outside, turn them into more zombies? That should have taken a bit longer to kill everyone. People weren't bashing into the gate and screaming in pain, they were screaming in fear and I didn't hear any hacking or eating of flesh. It was just screaming, then quiet, then ZOMBIES! I assumed the blizzard killed then made them into zombies outright.

[Crown]

Truly a fantastic episode, best of the season (which I don't intend to be small praise given how week I've felt the season has been so far) and I'm thinking top 5 for the series overall, which is huge to say the least.

Everything was really on point, the Tyrion/Dany scenes, the Cersie scenes and the Arya montage to move her story along. Sansa was given some hope this episode, and I like the way she's starting to unravel Reek; it makes up for her epic failure with her first attempt.

Checkov's Ollie has been primed by Sam which I'm totally sure isn't going to bite anyone on the arse ...

But that scene in Hardhome; I now understand where all the budget for the season as gone (and why Dorne suffers as a result), wow. Fantastically shot and in true GoT fashion we're introduced to a new character (Karsi) who I of course instantly like; regarding the fact that the Wildling's ancestors would spit on them if they knew they were entering into a deal with a Crow 'So would mine; but fuck them. They're dead' epic! And of course the good old staple 'I fucking hate Thenns'. So naturally she dies straight away. Typical. But at least my second favourite character introduced up north, Wun 'What the fuck are you looking at?' Wun the giant lived!

Also it solves a book speculation that Valyrian steel = Dragon steel like Obsidian = Dragon glass, loved the WTF look on Jon's and the White Walkers face when Longclaw didn't shatter.

So why exactly didn't they break out torches (or anything else that would burn) and set them on fire?

Even in a snowstorm they just light right up.

Might be less viable of a tactic with actual White Walkers present since they appear to be able to suppress (normal) fire; clicky.

At least Kevan Lannister is coming back. Hopefully he'll get shit done. He has every reason to hate Cersei, but this would be the perfect time to bail her and Margaery out, get in good with Tommen (mommy fucked this all up because she loves you too much.), smash some fanatics to pieces, push Cercei off to the side (or back to Casterly Rock), and get shit back in order. I mean.... it probably won't happen, but you have to hope there is at least one sane man in King's Landing.

It's King's Landing, there's probably "idiot juice" in the water there, if there ever is a sane man there it won't last.

What Kevan will or will not do depends on what's at stake regarding the charges against Cersie vis-a-vis the legitimacy of Torren's claim to the throne; if the charges against Cersie are all related to her and Lancel bumping uglies, and Tommen remains unaffected I'm gonna bet Kevan does nothing. He doesn't necessarily want Cersie out and about, it works in his favour for her to be humiliated and stripped of influence (not to mention it works in pretty much everyone's favour if her royal batshit crazy is out of power) and frankly it allows him to do what Tywin was going to do anyway; rule in Tommen's name.

If, on the other hand, the charges are related to Cersie's and Jamie's incest and thus a threat to the legitimacy of Tommen's rule, then he will most likely slaughter all the Faith Militant. He's in the same position that Lady Olenna was last season when Tywin twisted her arm into agreeing to marriage bewteen Cersie and Loras; Kevan has to maintain the Tommen lie, if he doesn't then his house is basically bankrupt with diminished manpower after all these years of campaigning. As Stannis sure as shit isn't going to repay any of the Crown's debt to the Lannisters at this point.

I think it was less magical blizzard killing and turning all the people beyond the gate than the army of freaking zombies quickly turning a huge mass of unarmed people into wights/zombies and really boosting their manpower.

Ok, so Blizzard brings in the zombies, they eat everyone outside, turn them into more zombies? That should have taken a bit longer to kill everyone. People weren't bashing into the gate and screaming in pain, they were screaming in fear and I didn't hear any hacking or eating of flesh. It was just screaming, then quiet, then ZOMBIES! I assumed the blizzard killed then made them into zombies outright.

The blizzard/avalanche does kill all those trapped outside, but it also provides camouflage for the Wights which then assault the gate. Just to be clear; the Wights aren't like the Living Dead zombies, they don't have a viral infection which can be transmitted. All they are is reanimated corpses filled with the will/purpose of the White Walkers who are ice demons/necromancers. They will attack and frenzy to kill, but they're not feasting on people's brains. Once you're dead, if your body isn't burned then you could be risen by a White Walker into a Wight, but you're not infected into turning into one.

As for the wights? I've long held the theory that the white walkers have the navigational capability of Bugs Bunny, and keep making that wrong turn at Albuquerque, and can't remember which direction south is. That's why we haven't really seen them since the end of season 2/beginning of season 3.

It's pretty clear they've been building up their strength (Crastor's sons) and have been waiting for the Winter to come for them to move southward. It's obvious they don't appear every winter, its just now that magic is returning into the world; Dragons hatching, the priests and priestesses of the Red God having actual power, the Warlocks of Qarth, etc, etc. They approach with the long night; perhaps they are harbingers of it or it is a symptom of their growing power, but either way it's clear they don't do this every winter.

[Mr Bean]

Re:Wights
Any body of anyone who is dead can be made into one. If the Blizzard was magic -300 degree cold or was just cover for the White Walkers the instant they have a corpse they can raise it as a Wight and each Wight is under the control of the White Walkers. Like good old fashion necromancy as long as you have a body you have a future soldier in the White Walker Army.

Days dead bodies can serve as you can see totally skeletal corpses, mostly intact bodies and those in between as long as it has form they can give it motion. They exist to do whatever the White Walkers desire and if that's make more bodies to make more Wights that's right in their wheel house.

[streetad]

I would imagine they've been tooling around murdering wildlings for their army. Potentially they only come out when it gets cold enough.

There is also nothing to indicate the White Walkers have the faintest idea what is going on beyond the wall. They probably don't know that Castle Black is currently held by 50 men.

Although having said that there is actually no evidence that the WWs even have any ambitions to invade Westeros at present...

[Crown]

Although having said that there is actually no evidence that the WWs even have any ambitions to invade Westeros at present...

Well ... apart from the fact that the Wall was raised to keep them out the last time you mean?

[Mr Bean]

Although having said that there is actually no evidence that the WWs even have any ambitions to invade Westeros at present...

Well ... apart from the fact that the Wall was raised to keep them out the last time you mean?

There is a theory out there that says the Wall was raised and manned by the White Walkers and not the Night's watch (After all if your a living ice monster building a giant ice wall makes a good deal of sense) but it's all pure theory.

However we do have both show and book info to go on that Wights and Whites can't pass the wall and the Wight's were playing dead until the NW took through the Wall itself and they tried to kill the Lord Commander of the Night's watch (Season 1) so them meaning harm to the Watch in some form is a given.

[Crown]

Although having said that there is actually no evidence that the WWs even have any ambitions to invade Westeros at present...

Well ... apart from the fact that the Wall was raised to keep them out the last time you mean?

There is a theory out there that says the Wall was raised and manned by the White Walkers and not the Night's watch (After all if your a living ice monster building a giant ice wall makes a good deal of sense) but it's all pure theory.

That makes absolutely no fucking sense. The only way for that theory to exist is to ignore every single piece of evidence that has been presented to us and just argue the alternative. Probably sponsored by a think tank financed by the Koch brothers no doubt.

[Mr Bean]

That makes absolutely no fucking sense. The only way for that theory to exist is to ignore every single piece of evidence that has been presented to us and just argue the alternative. Probably sponsored by a think tank financed by the Koch brothers no doubt.

Okay, let me go into it then. C Forrester put the entire theory together here but I'll just quote (And spoiler) the relevant theory. (Note he uses the book term Others rather than White Walkers)
Spoiler

An Alternate Theory

The Night's King story is not a random horror tale. It's an explanation of how the war against the Others was won.

The story of the Last Hero as related by Old Nan ends with the Others closing in and the Last Hero, who is defenseless. It is never said he fought or defeated or conquered them.

We know that there has already been a peace between human and inhuman/supernatural beings in Westeros. The First Men and the Children came to terms and agreed to a peace treaty (which was later broken by the Andal invaders)

I propose that the Last Hero was not a conqueror, but a diplomat. An agreement was reached between Men and the Others. It was the Others themselves that raised the magical wall of ice, not to seal themselves off but to mark their territory and protect themselves from a dangerous source of fire magic to the south of their domain.

This pact was sealed as many agreements in the series are, with a marriage. A Stark or one of the ancestors of the Starks married the queen of the Others and reigned at the Wall, presiding jointly with his strange bride over a sort of demilitarized zone between Men and Others.

The Others, then, fulfilled their side of the agreement. They went away and left Men alone.

Men, unfortunately, did not keep up their end of the bargain. A large population of them has taken up residence on the wrong side of the Wall. They may be violating some now unknown and unremembered term of the agreement.

Could this be why Craster sacrifices his sons to the Others, and is left alone? Perhaps he simply rediscovered, by accident, part of this treaty or pact, and in fulfilling it was left in peace. We assume that the Others are doing something evil with the babies because they look and, apparently, act evil, but are they?

The Others attack the Night's Watch in force, but never the wildings. Why?

Simply put, the charter of the Watch goes both ways. They're not supposed to intervene in southern affairs, nor are they to intervene in northern affairs.

This brings me back to the Night's King. At some point, the Watch had a change in leadership and the hereditary House of the proto-Stark and his Other bride were deposed and replaced by the system of choosing. This is all remembered in the tale of the Night's King's downfall.

The Night's Watch, in the view of the Others, has broken the treaty and the Others are working to destroy them, most actively when they invade the North in the form of the Great Ranging.

The Wildings are simply herded south. The Others pick at their fringes and push them towards the Wall. The goal is not to exterminate them but to get them out. Men are no longer keeping their side of the agreement, so the Others are no longer obligated to keep theirs.

He gives a lot more supporting details but it's a theory that makes sense given the context of the work (No Koch funded studies required).
And it ties back into a RR Martin favorite... subverting expectations, why not twist the knife when the "evil ice monsters" are just pissed because humanity forgot a treaty they agreed to and are actively breaking it.

Hardhome is the change, if this is what the White Walkers can do why are the Wildings alive at this point, how have they live so long when the Whites can simply walk through every conventional weapon and slay and turn people at whim? Why are they alive unless... the White Walkers have been sleeping OR they simply left them alone... until something changed. Something like the return of Fire and Dragons into the world.