Game of Thrones Season 4 Discussion (TV Spoilers Only)

[The Grim Squeaker]

"Aha! I have you in my clutches inside my castle with the guards alerted! Now you see how I have broken your brother, I will let you leave knowing what he has become! mwahahaaa" [/Convoluted scheme].

That just does ...not make sense. Particularly for Ramsey Snow.

If there were enough guards coming or around, then he would have captured Yaarah (whatever her name in the series is), so as to torture her horribly (and another ironborn hostage. But mainly horrific torture and rape).
If he didn't have a lot of guards right behind him (that we didn't see in the scene, at the end of the fight the numbers were roughly 3-4 on each side, with Yaarah not having fought yet) - then the logical outcome would have been a fight to the death, not him letting her go.

You may need to rewatch the scene. As Ramsay shows up, he has blood on him and its clear he had to fight his way down to the pens.

Actually - it was clear to me that the scratches were due to his sex with whatsername the psychopathic former nun.

To me that says that there are other Ironborn in the castle that are being fought, and likely occupying other members of the household guard. As I recall, she set out with the "50 best killers" or something like that, and there were less than 10 that were with her at the time. Even if they left a contingent to guard the boats, that's still a lot of men potentially fighting offscreen.

Which again - just makes her running away make LESS sense.
(Especially when they're alone by the boats at the end of the scene).

As for "letting her go" that wasn't really the case. Initially it is the Ironborn who are cornered in the pens, but during the course of the fight that changes and its Ramsay who is cornered by the end of the fight. That's why Yara makes the statement that she does regarding him not having to die if he gave up her brother. Ramsay then counters that with the "how fast can you run" by UNLEASHING THE HOUNDS via the key in his hands. Yara realizes she would be hard pressed to fight both Ramsays' remaining group and the hounds makes a tactical retreat.

Except that:
1. He did it stupidly slowly, and the scene looks stupid.
1.b) One throwing ax = Problem solved.
2. There's no reason why he should NOT release the hounds on her, and attack and capture/killer her.
2.B) There's no logical reason why he should let her leave, if he really had the upper hand.

He did bite her on the hand and staunchly refused to go with her. Her conclusion that her "brother is dead" was likely the realization that what made him her brother was gone.

Since of course, despite her being one of the few ironborn with more than a dozen brain cells to rub together, she wouldn't rationalize that "maybe" he'd be traumatized by having parts chopped off, being in a pen, and being sure that this was a fake attempt, as he said to her clearly, before the fighting started?

This would be along the lines of wounded warriors screaming to "end their pain" - clearly, they're rational people who know what they want!
(What's that you say? Burning pitch so that they'll live and thank you later? Nah. Surely the many with his hand chopped in half by a sword knows exactly what he's saying and means. People in situations of extreme violence, terror and stress remain perfectly rational after all.

[TheHammer]

"Aha! I have you in my clutches inside my castle with the guards alerted! Now you see how I have broken your brother, I will let you leave knowing what he has become! mwahahaaa" [/Convoluted scheme].

That just does ...not make sense. Particularly for Ramsey Snow.

If there were enough guards coming or around, then he would have captured Yaarah (whatever her name in the series is), so as to torture her horribly (and another ironborn hostage. But mainly horrific torture and rape).
If he didn't have a lot of guards right behind him (that we didn't see in the scene, at the end of the fight the numbers were roughly 3-4 on each side, with Yaarah not having fought yet) - then the logical outcome would have been a fight to the death, not him letting her go.

I agree. I really hated that whole sequence. It's only purpose was to shove the "Theon's been broken" exposition into the audience's face, despite that already having been made clear to us in the shaving scene a couple of episodes ago. It didn't advance the story at all and its execution was clumsy, despite TheHammer's defense of it. The fight choreography was confusing (how did the Ironborn and Ramsay "switch sides" during that fight anyway? One moment they are standing on one side of the room, the next they are on the other. Ramsay is shirtless and is able to take out Ironborn with shields and spears with his knives, because the Ironborn had the worst battle plan possible and basically just walked right up to him and let him stab them. It also seems like they could have quickly killed Ramsay while he was SLOOOWLY unlocking the dog cage and giving his usual irritatingly smug GRRR I'M SO EVIL speech).

I think they quite rightly knew they were fucked being trapped in tight quarters. I won't speak to the fight choreography specifically, but I don't believe they could have "easily killed Ramsay". If anything they were at a fairly even standoff, with a slight tactical advantage to the Ironborn. The dogs would have tipped that the other way.

I have said it before, and I will say it again. I absolutely despise the whole Theon/Reek storyline. It has added absolutely nothing to the series thus far. And it constantly feels like they are stalling. Last season had all the gratuitous torture. This season isn't much better. Yeah, we get it, Theon's been broken ... we don't need multiple episodes showing us that he is fucked up. And yeah, we know that Ramsay's plan is to attack a fort defended by Stark bannermen ... we've now had two separate drawn out sequences explaining that (one with Roose Bolton, and now the one in the bath).

They're attacking a fort manned by Ironborn bannermen not Stark. But I presume that's what you meant.

On a completely different note, how exactly is the Westerosi legal system set up? Why is "trial by combat" some sort of a trump card for any trial (Tyrion has used it twice, now)? Besides the fact that the idea of a trial by combat is a ridiculously stupid (at least the Brotherhood without Banners have the excuse that it has religious significance for them) way to let legal disputes be settled, what is the point of even having trials if it can always come down to a trial by combat anyway? I know there is some historic legal precedent for trials by combat in the Middle Ages, and I don't claim to be an expert on it, but as far as I can tell it was only used in pretty specific legal disputes, and wasn't the catch-all deus ex machina/plot device GoT seems to use it as. I don't think it was ever allowed historically in accusations of murder, nevermind something as momentous as regicide. I could be wrong, but in general it just feels super clumsy on the part of the show; it is just an obvious attempt to insert another fight scene (one which an upcoming episode title already spoils the participants of) and make the trial more OMG surprising.

Stories from King Arthur's camelot of Trial by combat certainly exist, its not as if GoT invented the concept. It is a religious throwback, the concept being that "the gods" would never allow a guilty person (or his champion) to prevail. Archaic or not, its clearly a law "still on the books", and thus available to highborn at least.

EDIT: That said, overall I liked this episode. The trial was great, the Oberyn/Varys scene was great, and the scene at the Iron Bank was great. Here's something else that bothered me, though.

At the small council meeting, Varys talks about the Hound killing the people at the tavern (from a couple of episodes ago), and even goes so far as to say, "The phrase 'Fuck the king' was uttered." How the hell does he know that? Everyone in that bar is dead except for Arya and the Hound, who aren't exactly on Varys' speed dial. Are we supposed to just imagine that there was someone in the bathroom the whole time that heard everything? Or does Varys have some sort of supernatural abilities?

The tavern keeper and his daughter weren't killed as I recall. And event like that is certainly something that would make the "local news".

[The Grim Squeaker]

I agree. I really hated that whole sequence.
It's only purpose was to shove the "Theon's been broken" exposition into the audience's face, despite that already having been made clear to us in the shaving scene a couple of episodes ago. It didn't advance the story at all and its execution was clumsy, despite TheHammer's defense of it.

I bloody hate the storyline itself in Season 3. (They could have put some flashbacks from it here, in then saved on the padding. While being much less gratuitous).
Show, don't tell. Theon shaking and mumbling in this episode would almost have been enough on its own. (Just add one or two of the fake escape/torture scenes, and the hound running, and you've covered all of the plotline's scenes in the past season and a half.).

Ramsay is shirtless and is able to take out Ironborn with shields and spears with his knives, because the Ironborn had the worst battle plan possible and basically just walked right up to him and let him stab them. It also seems like they could have quickly killed Ramsay while he was SLOOOWLY unlocking the dog cage and giving his usual irritatingly smug GRRR I'M SO EVIL speech).

Gods yes. So damn slow.
(One of the very strong bits of the book when it comes to battle choreography - it's realistic. You're drunk? You're likely fucked. Longsword vs sais? Better hope you're in close quarters and don't forget how to use REACH. stick vs full plate armor? (Go ask the waterdancer). )
Here it was just so clumsily forced.

And yeah, we know that Ramsay's plan is to attack a fort defended by Stark bannermen ... we've now had two separate drawn out sequences explaining that (one with Roose Bolton, and now the one in the bath).

By ironmen actually, no?
(Unless i'm confusing things with the book)

----------------------------------

On a completely different note, how exactly is the Westerosi legal system set up? Why is "trial by combat" some sort of a trump card for any trial (Tyrion has used it twice, now)? Besides the fact that the idea of a trial by combat is a ridiculously stupid (at least the Brotherhood without Banners have the excuse that it has religious significance for them) way to let legal disputes be settled, what is the point of even having trials if it can always come down to a trial by combat anyway? I know there is some historic legal precedent for trials by combat in the Middle Ages, and I don't claim to be an expert on it, but as far as I can tell it was only used in pretty specific legal disputes, and wasn't the catch-all deus ex machina/plot device GoT seems to use it as.

Good question that - I don't think it's been detailed how exactly it came into being. (And whether it precedes the faith of the 7).
It would make sense as a defense for nobleborn and knights, particularly if belief in the gods is strong.
(And there'd be no incentive for anyone who can benefit from it to remove the system. A lot of nobles are renowned fighters, or think of themselves as such, or can employ others who are. And that's not touching on the "cheating" trump cards, if you were stupid enough to try that with a Targaeryn. (Aeris would always use FIRE as his champion).

The system DOES break down when you have someone like the Cleganes though. (Which is why you don't want one of them on trial I suppose).

I don't think it was ever allowed historically in accusations of murder, nevermind something as momentous as regicide.

It's a case of a clause applied without being affected by the underlying crime I think. (Same as asking to be your own legal counsel - you can do it regardless of the crime you're accused of).

At the small council meeting, Varys talks about the Hound killing the people at the tavern (from a couple of episodes ago), and even goes so far as to say, "The phrase 'Fuck the king' was uttered." How the hell does he know that? Everyone in that bar is dead except for Arya and the Hound, who aren't exactly on Varys' speed dial. Are we supposed to just imagine that there was someone in the bathroom the whole time that heard everything? Or does Varys have some sort of supernatural abilities?

Barkeep. (And the daughter).

[TheHammer]

Actually - it was clear to me that the scratches were due to his sex with whatsername the psychopathic former nun.

Before they actually show up in the pens we do hear semi-distant combat noises as I recall. My presumption was he fought his way there when I saw the scene. Again, there were certainly more ironborn in the fort than what we saw down in the pens.

To me that says that there are other Ironborn in the castle that are being fought, and likely occupying other members of the household guard. As I recall, she set out with the "50 best killers" or something like that, and there were less than 10 that were with her at the time. Even if they left a contingent to guard the boats, that's still a lot of men potentially fighting offscreen.

Which again - just makes her running away make LESS sense.
(Especially when they're alone by the boats at the end of the scene).

You run away if you no longer have a reason to fight and escape is an option. Why would she and her men fight to the death when Theon clearly was actively fighting against the cause?

As for "letting her go" that wasn't really the case. Initially it is the Ironborn who are cornered in the pens, but during the course of the fight that changes and its Ramsay who is cornered by the end of the fight. That's why Yara makes the statement that she does regarding him not having to die if he gave up her brother. Ramsay then counters that with the "how fast can you run" by UNLEASHING THE HOUNDS via the key in his hands. Yara realizes she would be hard pressed to fight both Ramsays' remaining group and the hounds makes a tactical retreat.

Except that:
1. He did it stupidly slowly, and the scene looks stupid.
1.b) One throwing ax = Problem solved.
2. There's no reason why he should NOT release the hounds on her, and attack and capture/killer her.
2.B) There's no logical reason why he should let her leave, if he really had the upper hand.

1. He didn't do it that slowly. He pulled out the key, showed it, and moved to unlock the cages. You're talking about 10 seconds.
1b - Did you see someone with a throwing axe and the skills to throw it?
2. He did release the hounds, that's why she retreated.
2B. He didn't "let her" do anything. He didn't hold the upperhand, or have control of the situation. The hounds merely gave him a tactical advantage (once they were actually freed) whereas prior to their release he was at a disadvantage.

He did bite her on the hand and staunchly refused to go with her. Her conclusion that her "brother is dead" was likely the realization that what made him her brother was gone.

Since of course, despite her being one of the few ironborn with more than a dozen brain cells to rub together, she wouldn't rationalize that "maybe" he'd be traumatized by having parts chopped off, being in a pen, and being sure that this was a fake attempt, as he said to her clearly, before the fighting started?

This would be along the lines of wounded warriors screaming to "end their pain" - clearly, they're rational people who know what they want!
(What's that you say? Burning pitch so that they'll live and thank you later? Nah. Surely the many with his hand chopped in half by a sword knows exactly what he's saying and means. People in situations of extreme violence, terror and stress remain perfectly rational after all.

You're over analyzing it. Obviously he was traumatized, brain washed, etc. That doesn't mean that Yara has to be understanding or sympathetic of that situation. From her perspective she risked her life to save him, and he bit her and sided with the enemy. From her perspective the person she was there to save no longer existed. I don't believe the thought that "With a little pyschotherapy, maybe someday he can get past this" ever crossed her mind.

[Scrib]

(And there'd be no incentive for anyone who can benefit from it to remove the system. A lot of nobles are renowned fighters, or think of themselves as such, or can employ others who are. And that's not touching on the "cheating" trump cards, if you were stupid enough to try that with a Targaeryn. (Aeris would always use FIRE as his champion).

The system DOES break down when you have someone like the Cleganes though. (Which is why you don't want one of them on trial I suppose).

Uh...no. Aerys didn't always use fire as his champion. He did it once. And it was a sign of his insanity. And he died soon after.

But as you say: it works because it's good for nobles. See: Tyrion's first trial: Bronn the cut-throat vs. someone in the best armor money could buy. It's not really a trump card. IF you're in enough trouble there are probably a ton of good knights that make the contest difficult enough. Lysa Arryn had her pick. The crown or any powerful lord would too.

But I suspect that only some people get to call it. Either because they're so intimidated by the consequences or the lords are only inclined to be merciful to other lords. Look at Tyrion's case: he threw away any chance of leniency and he will have to have a champion (god knows who would want to fight for him-another problem, most people aren't that dumb). People worse off would have had a choice between death and losing fingers like Davos or heading to the Wall. Why fight? Why die?

You're over analyzing it. Obviously he was traumatized, brain washed, etc. That doesn't mean that Yara has to be understanding or sympathetic of that situation. From her perspective she risked her life to save him, and he bit her and sided with the enemy. From her perspective the person she was there to save no longer existed. I don't believe the thought that "With a little pyschotherapy, maybe someday he can get past this" ever crossed her mind.

Not to mention that it is the Ironborn.Pretty...macho guys, they wouldn't take that well. Even today there's this "fight your way out of it" mentality when it comes to mental trauma. We expect medieval reavers to know better?

Also: you're assuming that Yara isn't 1-Pissed 2-Scared and in a hurry 3- Not shouting the simplest thing at her men to save face and get them to row the fucking boats. Didn't she just tell them that what happened to Theon was a stain on their honor? Yet she ran? Simplest explanation: Theon is dead. She might explain later, she might not, she just needs to get out of their.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I had forgotten about the innkeeper and his daughter in that scene.

Anyway, something else bothered me about the trial scene. Though, to be fair, GoT is not the only show that is guilty of this sort of thing. I feel like it is a common trope in TV shows and movies. Cersei, Pycelle, and Varys were all able to perfectly recall (as in, word for word) conversations they had had with Tyrion months before. Granted, it is hinted Varys has essentially a perfect memory, but Pycelle and Cersei? Look, if you asked me to testify about what my roommate said to me three months ago in a particular conversation, I could give you a pretty good summary of what we talked about and what he said. Maybe I'd be able to paraphrase anything particularly memorable, like a colorful metaphor. But there's no way I (or anybody else with normal human memory) would be able to recall word for fucking word every part of that conversation. I know this is silly, but this kind of thing really bothers me in fiction. Nobody has memory that good, especially with respect to conversations they've had. Hell, the screen-writers definitely had to flip back through their pages to get the quotes right. I just wish once in a situation like that the show would have the balls to be honest and have the characters recall the quotes incorrectly or something.

[Elfdart]

At the small council meeting, Varys talks about the Hound killing the people at the tavern (from a couple of episodes ago), and even goes so far as to say, "The phrase 'Fuck the king' was uttered." How the hell does he know that? Everyone in that bar is dead except for Arya and the Hound, who aren't exactly on Varys' speed dial. Are we supposed to just imagine that there was someone in the bathroom the whole time that heard everything? Or does Varys have some sort of supernatural abilities?

Is the owner of the tavern dead, along with his daughter? Maybe they sent word.

I'm sure the kid-stabber and his buddies weren't the only Lannister men in the area. It wouldn't take long for others to look around and...

The Yara/Ramsay scene made no sense whatsoever.

I'm now 100% convinced Shae is Tywin's spy and was all along.

[JLTucker]

I had forgotten about the innkeeper and his daughter in that scene.

Anyway, something else bothered me about the trial scene. Though, to be fair, GoT is not the only show that is guilty of this sort of thing. I feel like it is a common trope in TV shows and movies. Cersei, Pycelle, and Varys were all able to perfectly recall (as in, word for word) conversations they had had with Tyrion months before. Granted, it is hinted Varys has essentially a perfect memory, but Pycelle and Cersei?

Pycelle was thrown into the dungeon by Tyrion, embarrassing him in front of a whore. Tyrion basically threatened Cersei's fucking kids. There's nothing unrealistic about her remembering. You're looking for a problem that isn't there.

[Ziggy Stardust]

Pycelle was thrown into the dungeon by Tyrion, embarrassing him in front of a whore. Tyrion basically threatened Cersei's fucking kids. There's nothing unrealistic about her remembering. You're looking for a problem that isn't there.

My problem isn't about them remembering the incidents in question, it is them specifically recalling certain quotes word-for-word months after the fact. I know it seems like a fine line (and you could certainly make the argument that some of the quotes were simple enough that exact recollection is more likely). But, in general, people just don't do that. Hell, people are even LESS likely to do that in an emotionally charged or stressful situation like either of those would have been. A huge emotional cost associated with a memory is MORE likely to warp it, not preserve it. People just don't work like that outside of fiction (then again, people also don't tend to use incredibly dramatic cliches and metaphors about dragons when talking to each other, either). And it bothers me. Anyway, this is getting a bit off-topic. I wasn't trying to start a debate, just venting about a silly trope that pops up a lot in fiction.

EDIT: And that all without even getting into how much fucking wine Cersei drinks. I'm impressed she remembers to even show up to the damned trial. Woman's a trainwreck.

Also, I realize the impact of the dialogue thematically. Even though the trial was a sham, and there were plenty of lies abound, they WERE still using Tyrion's words against him. There is a rich irony there that I appreciate the show exploring. It is a great literary technique. I just think it's a bit silly when you really delve into it.

---------------------

So what exactly is Varys up to these days, anyway? This is more or less the first episode this season where we have gotten real screen time with him, at least in any substantive sense. How much is he or is he not aware of Littlefinger's involvement in Joffrey's death (or, hell, Jon Arryn's)? I have no doubt that Varys is plotting something and will make some sort of big move this season, I just have a hard time getting a pin on where he falls in current events given how infrequently we've seen him lately.

[LaCroix]

So what exactly is Varys up to these days, anyway? This is more or less the first episode this season where we have gotten real screen time with him, at least in any substantive sense. How much is he or is he not aware of Littlefinger's involvement in Joffrey's death (or, hell, Jon Arryn's)? I have no doubt that Varys is plotting something and will make some sort of big move this season, I just have a hard time getting a pin on where he falls in current events given how infrequently we've seen him lately.

A spider knitting her net in plain view would not be a good spider, no? If you could guess the side he would take, I'd guarantee that he actually works for the other, while stabbing them in the back for a third party, on behest of a fourth player in the game that we haven't even seen, yet...

[fgalkin]

So what exactly is Varys up to these days, anyway? This is more or less the first episode this season where we have gotten real screen time with him, at least in any substantive sense. How much is he or is he not aware of Littlefinger's involvement in Joffrey's death (or, hell, Jon Arryn's)? I have no doubt that Varys is plotting something and will make some sort of big move this season, I just have a hard time getting a pin on where he falls in current events given how infrequently we've seen him lately.

A spider knitting her net in plain view would not be a good spider, no? If you could guess the side he would take, I'd guarantee that he actually works for the other, while stabbing them in the back for a third party, on behest of a fourth player in the game that we haven't even seen, yet...

That's Littlefinger. Varys has been consistently working for one player and we know who that is since Season 1.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Raw Shark]

Actually - it was clear to me that the scratches were due to his sex with whatsername the psychopathic former nun.

I didn't see that interpretation at all - All we saw in their sex scene was some moderate choking, and then the next time Ramsay shows up he's accompanied by armed men, covered in freely-bleeding cuts to the torso? I strongly got the impression that we are meant to believe that he has just fought his way through other ironborn with armor and shields in his pajama pants, paid the logical consequences for that, doesn't care, and
Spoiler

has at least one more level in badass than Book!Ramsay.

[SCRawl]

I also got the impression that the blood on Ramsay's torso might have been from his session with his female accomplice, and not necessarily his. For one thing, while there was a lot of red, there wasn't all that much blood, and if the blood was his the cuts were probably too shallow to have come from overcoming the Ironborn. He could have gotten nicked up here and there from bumping into guys with armour, I guess, but landing any kind of blow on him would have made him bleed much more freely. And he seemed just fine the next day during that touching bathtub scene with Reek.

Was I the only one who thought it insane for him to go into a close-quarter against armoured opponents fight wearing, as Raw Shark points out, pajama pants?

As for those who were complaining that not enough was done to describe Theon's torture and explain his current subservience, consider that in the books this took place entirely offstage. Theon was just MIA for about a book and a half, only to return as Reek with the suggestion of a few missing parts.

[TheHammer]

I had forgotten about the innkeeper and his daughter in that scene.

Anyway, something else bothered me about the trial scene. Though, to be fair, GoT is not the only show that is guilty of this sort of thing. I feel like it is a common trope in TV shows and movies. Cersei, Pycelle, and Varys were all able to perfectly recall (as in, word for word) conversations they had had with Tyrion months before. Granted, it is hinted Varys has essentially a perfect memory, but Pycelle and Cersei? Look, if you asked me to testify about what my roommate said to me three months ago in a particular conversation, I could give you a pretty good summary of what we talked about and what he said. Maybe I'd be able to paraphrase anything particularly memorable, like a colorful metaphor. But there's no way I (or anybody else with normal human memory) would be able to recall word for fucking word every part of that conversation. I know this is silly, but this kind of thing really bothers me in fiction. Nobody has memory that good, especially with respect to conversations they've had. Hell, the screen-writers definitely had to flip back through their pages to get the quotes right. I just wish once in a situation like that the show would have the balls to be honest and have the characters recall the quotes incorrectly or something.

I completely disagree. I'd remember a conversation like that and likely be able to recite it word for word. I can remember certain conversations I've had years ago word for word. If its a particularly traumatizing event those memories tend to stick a lot harder than a casual conversation. If your room-mate had threatened to kill you or a loved one I suspect you very well might be able to recall word for word what was said.

I don't believe Pycelle actually recalled anything from memory aside from being tossed into the dungeon. He read from his list of poisons, and described the type of poison that killed Joffrey. And as you noted, and as was strongly implied in dialogue, Varys has possibly a photographic memory. Cersei herself also is implied to have a very good memory, often recounts stories in great detail from her past. I could see how something such as the dramatic conversation with her brother would be something she would remember. She likely stewed over it for hours afterward searing it into her brain, much as I expect Tyrion did the same.

I'm now 100% convinced Shae is Tywin's spy and was all along.

I was sort of thinking that myself.

And you've got to wonder if Bronn is in on it as well considering he was the one who brought Shae to Tyrion in the first place, and he was the one who "sent her away". Is it possible he was hired by Tywin to watch out for Tyrion? And if so when was he hired? Did he happen to "stand for the dwarf" on a spur of the moment decision in the Vale, or was he doing the job he was paid to do? Interesting questions still to be answered...

[Raw Shark]

Was I the only one who thought it insane for him to go into a close-quarter against armoured opponents fight wearing, as Raw Shark points out, pajama pants?

Nope, that looked totally fucking nuts, like the Barehanded-Drogo-Vs-Guy-With-Sword fight. Whether TV!Ramsay gets by on epic skill or sheer bravado remains to be seen on repeat performances.

Side note: I love the actor they got for Ramsay. He really manages to sell the whole, "I am about to fight armored men in my PJs and probably get very seriously injured doing it and it completely gives me a woody," persona with the way his eyes light up and all.

[TheHammer]

Was I the only one who thought it insane for him to go into a close-quarter against armoured opponents fight wearing, as Raw Shark points out, pajama pants?

Nope, that looked totally fucking nuts, like the Barehanded-Drogo-Vs-Guy-With-Sword fight. Whether TV!Ramsay gets by on epic skill or sheer bravado remains to be seen on repeat performances.

Side note: I love the actor they got for Ramsay. He really manages to sell the whole, "I am about to fight armored men in my PJs and probably get very seriously injured doing it and it completely gives me a woody," persona with the way his eyes light up and all.

He does have irrational confidence. The whole having a guy who you tortured and mutilated give you a shave with a sharp razor while you relax in a chair illustrated that.

[SCRawl]

He does have irrational confidence. The whole having a guy who you tortured and mutilated give you a shave with a sharp razor while you relax in a chair illustrated that.

Your reference shows that maybe that confidence isn't so irrational. He did, after all, survive at least one ill-prepared encounter against better-armed opponents, and he was able to correctly predict the outcome of that "close shave" at the hands of Reek. He is a sadistic sociopath, to be sure, but he does seem to have a good handle on reality.

[TheHammer]

He does have irrational confidence. The whole having a guy who you tortured and mutilated give you a shave with a sharp razor while you relax in a chair illustrated that.

Your reference shows that maybe that confidence isn't so irrational. He did, after all, survive at least one ill-prepared encounter against better-armed opponents, and he was able to correctly predict the outcome of that "close shave" at the hands of Reek. He is a sadistic sociopath, to be sure, but he does seem to have a good handle on reality.

Failure to take even basic precautions is irrational. Someone who is mind fucked as much as Reek has been certainly can't be trusted for the simple reason that they may "snap" at any moment, and I predict at some point he will. Going into combat against armed and armored men without any protection yourself is simply insane. Being lucky in those two encounters doesn't mean the decision to put himself there was in any way rational.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I wrote a longer post and thought I posted it, but it seems to have disappeared? Not sure what happened, there. Don't feel like retyping it all, so I am just going to repost this bit:

That's Littlefinger. Varys has been consistently working for one player and we know who that is since Season 1.
-fgalkin

To what are you referring, exactly? I don't recall anything in Season 1 that explicitly mentioned who Varys was working for or with. Unless this is your cryptic way of saying he is working for himself, I don't know what you are getting at.

[SCRawl]

Failure to take even basic precautions is irrational. Someone who is mind fucked as much as Reek has been certainly can't be trusted for the simple reason that they may "snap" at any moment, and I predict at some point he will. Going into combat against armed and armored men without any protection yourself is simply insane. Being lucky in those two encounters doesn't mean the decision to put himself there was in any way rational.

I would tend to think that these decisions are insane. Does this mean that anyone who takes them must therefore be insane? Supreme confidence can come from supreme competence just as well as insanity.

As an absurd example, I'm supremely confident that I can kick the ass of any five-year-old if I have to. If I'm called upon to do this heinous deed, and I take no special precautions, is my confidence misplaced? Similarly, if Ramsay believes himself to be so much better than a man-at-arms that he can effectively do so with one arm metaphorically behind his back, and he really is able to accomplish this reliably, is that confidence irrational?

[SCRawl]

I wrote a longer post and thought I posted it, but it seems to have disappeared? Not sure what happened, there. Don't feel like retyping it all, so I am just going to repost this bit:

That's Littlefinger. Varys has been consistently working for one player and we know who that is since Season 1.
-fgalkin

To what are you referring, exactly? I don't recall anything in Season 1 that explicitly mentioned who Varys was working for or with. Unless this is your cryptic way of saying he is working for himself, I don't know what you are getting at.

A scene in which Arya had been chasing a cat in the bowels of the Red Keep, she hid (I think) in one of the dragon skulls and overheard Varys speaking with (I think) Illyrio about the current state of affairs.

[TheHammer]

Failure to take even basic precautions is irrational. Someone who is mind fucked as much as Reek has been certainly can't be trusted for the simple reason that they may "snap" at any moment, and I predict at some point he will. Going into combat against armed and armored men without any protection yourself is simply insane. Being lucky in those two encounters doesn't mean the decision to put himself there was in any way rational.

I would tend to think that these decisions are insane. Does this mean that anyone who takes them must therefore be insane? Supreme confidence can come from supreme competence just as well as insanity.

As an absurd example, I'm supremely confident that I can kick the ass of any five-year-old if I have to. If I'm called upon to do this heinous deed, and I take no special precautions, is my confidence misplaced? Similarly, if Ramsay believes himself to be so much better than a man-at-arms that he can effectively do so with one arm metaphorically behind his back, and he really is able to accomplish this reliably, is that confidence irrational?

Ramsay believing himself to be so much better than an armed and armored soldier is what makes it irrational. A 5 year old, presumably unarmed, is not a realistic threat - thus very little is required in terms of basic precautions. Give that 5 year old a weapon such as a knife and the "kicking his ass" becomes less of a gimme. Are you going to go in without precautions then regardless of how confident you are that you'll still win?

[SCRawl]

Ramsay believing himself to be so much better than an armed and armored soldier is what makes it irrational. A 5 year old, presumably unarmed, is not a realistic threat - thus very little is required in terms of basic precautions. Give that 5 year old a weapon such as a knife and the "kicking his ass" becomes less of a gimme. Are you going to go in without precautions then regardless of how confident you are that you'll still win?

If the opportunity for precautions exists, I suppose someone would be foolish to not take such an opportunity. There was no time for Ramsay to put on armour and still make it into the fight, and clearly his side was better off with his (unarmoured) help than without it. But in the same way that there is no melee weapon a five-year-old could hold that could make him a credible threat to a grown man, precautions or not, perhaps the Bastard of Bolton is really so much more competent than a man-at-arms that the likelihood of a bad outcome was effectively zero.

Do fighters like this exist in real life? I don't know, I'm not any kind of combat expert.

[Ziggy Stardust]

A scene in which Arya had been chasing a cat in the bowels of the Red Keep, she hid (I think) in one of the dragon skulls and overheard Varys speaking with (I think) Illyrio about the current state of affairs.

I remember that scene, but my only impression from that scene was that Illyrio was one of Varys' "little birds" giving him information. It didn't give me the impression that Varys was working for Illyrio, or that the two were working for some elusive other figure, or anything like that. In fact, the scene seemed to be Varys giving Illyrio orders. IIRC, they just mentioned Daenarys marrying Khal Drogo and that Ned Sark was in danger due to his genealogy investigation. So, unless I am misremembering that scene or missed something, I don't see how that scene in any way makes it clear who Varys is working for as fgalkin intimated.

[Napoleon the Clown]

The impression I get from Ramsey is that, not only is he confident in his abilities, but he also doesn't have a terribly strong self preservation instinct. He doesn't actively want to die, but if he does, so what? Live for the moment, valar morghulis. Everyone dies, eventually, so you might as well have a grand old time and, hopefully, go out having a blast.