A goofy thread that actually makes some sense.

[KK]

If you hit a large object with enough force over a large enough area, the entire object can break apart.

Bullets and sledge-hammers both deliver kinetic force, but they definitely don't have the same effect.

[JodoForce]

There is no ki in real life, dumbass. How are we supposed to real-life examples of ki interacting with objects?

I said, an example of ki interacting with a real world object, but I don't mean 'real world', I mean 'real world objects in DBZ / (insert your fictional universe here)' ie. objects that correspond to something in real life, that we can assume to have the same properties as the corresponding object in real life. E.g. the moon and the other planets that the energy blasts blew up, etc. See, we use the planets to try to deduce the destructive power of the blasts, we don't try to measure it from two energy blasts hitting each other, or a blast killing a DBZ character, because those are all fictional objects with unknown properties. That's all!!

I forgot

What did you forget?

[JodoForce]

If you hit a large object with enough force over a large enough area, the entire object can break apart.

And how large are the blasts the blew up planets? You're not serious about arguing for the destruction of the planets by kinetic force are you? In case you haven't noticed all of you have been trying to MINIMIZE the momentum of the ki blasts to reduce the problem of recoil, now are you going to do an about face? And obviously the ki blasts on the planets were much closer to the bullet case than the sledgehammer case.

On another note: can anyone come up with an example of this?

Hmm... have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a full power Kamehameha and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES) and remained standing where he was? This would conclusively show that the stronger character has enough TK power to counter the recoil of a planet-busting blast, since he is able to counter the recoil at the *receiving* end (where it doesn't matter whether the blast energy was given by DET or not, the blasts have been shown to have devastating kinetic effects on an unprotected target regardless of the mechanism--unlike SAMA's examples)

[KK]

The blast Frieza used on Planet Vegeta looked damn near moon sized when it hit. The one Buu used, iirc, was never shown all fitting in one panel.


The recoil problem isn't one. It's not even an issue. These characters have been shown able to physically block these planet destroying blasts, which means they could counter the recoil easily.

[Darth_Shinji]

Ok, I see your point JodoForce. The only logical thing I can think off know is that Chi is a catch-all energy that can be converted into many different forms and its effects can be controlled to the finest point.

But I have trouble understanding how this should proof that it should be thrown out when we allow the Force, any magic system, psionics, and other marital arts anime in debates. We can resonaible assume how it would work, what are its properties, ect.

[KK]

It's well known that ki has a wide variety of effects.

Every power in DBZ except a few species specific traits is based in ki.


Concussive blasts, explosive blasts, drilling blasts, flight, boosted strength, telekenesis, telepathy, speed, splitting into multiple bodies, growing extra limbs, matter transmutation, and other things are all done with ki.

[Eagle299]

If you hit a large object with enough force over a large enough area, the entire object can break apart.

And how large are the blasts the blew up planets? You're not serious about arguing for the destruction of the planets by kinetic force are you? In case you haven't noticed all of you have been trying to MINIMIZE the momentum of the ki blasts to reduce the problem of recoil, now are you going to do an about face? And obviously the ki blasts on the planets were much closer to the bullet case than the sledgehammer case.

On another note: can anyone come up with an example of this?

Hmm... have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a full power Kamehameha and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES) and remained standing where he was? This would conclusively show that the stronger character has enough TK power to counter the recoil of a planet-busting blast, since he is able to counter the recoil at the *receiving* end (where it doesn't matter whether the blast energy was given by DET or not, the blasts have been shown to have devastating kinetic effects on an unprotected target regardless of the mechanism--unlike SAMA's examples)

Radditz taking a full powered Kamehameha from Goku and it doing nothing to him.

Tenshinhan firing his Kikiho attack at Nappa and not budging him (though it did crack his armor). It should be noted that Kikiho is one of the most powerful attacks in the series, and it seems to be almost pure kinetic force.

Vegeta firing a full powered attack at Frieza, which Frieza deflected easily. Piccolo even screamed at Vegeta, "Are you trying to kill us all!?"

Vegeta firing Final Flash for the first time at Cell. It takes a chunch out of him, but it doesn't budge him from the spot he was standing in at all. Once again, the spectators, Kuririn and Trunks, were worried that Vegeta would take out the planet with the blast. Vegeta explains that he merely focused it all on Cell.

Good enough for you?

[JodoForce]

Good enough for me, and, I hope, good enough for the real detractors in this debate too

[consequences]

Not good enough for me I'm afraid.

All of your tk/recoil/kinetic force arguments run straight into the 'Goku nearly killed by the 100Gs incident on the spaceship to Namek. If he could muster the smallest fraction of the capabilities you are suggesting, he would have been in absolutely no danger. He also wouldn't have had his ass kicked by the mere ten Gs on King Kai's planet.


And how exactly do you think that Majin Buu was tearing apart reality, Samas? It sure as hell looked to me like he was tearing a giant portal to 'somewhere else'. On the Androids, didn't I establish that they weren't using the same energy source because they were undetectable to Z fighters? If I left that out of my quick'n'dirty explanation, my apologies.

[Connor MacLeod]

Apparently along the lines someone forgot the point where I mentioned "it must be proven that a DBZ character has produced the required force to compensate for the indicated recoil if we treat this as a DET event." (or that they can substantially gain in mass in addition to the massive acceleration requirement needed.) The "no math mentality" coupled with the "leap in logic" (very much akin to borg "Adaption" fallacies, really.) isn't quite cutting it.

Since I've already made my point (repeatedly) and noone has bothered to address it, a lack of numbers will be taken as justification for my earlier concession accepted

[consequences]

Sorry, still busy at the other end of this Connor, maybe someday we'll meet in the middle?

[KK]

Not good enough for me I'm afraid.

All of your tk/recoil/kinetic force arguments run straight into the 'Goku nearly killed by the 100Gs incident on the spaceship to Namek. If he could muster the smallest fraction of the capabilities you are suggesting, he would have been in absolutely no danger. He also wouldn't have had his ass kicked by the mere ten Gs on King Kai's planet.

You fail to mention that he had been training non-stop and was utterly exhausted when the 100g's kicked in.

[JodoForce]

I just saw a few DBZ movies these two days, and frankly I'm confused by the huge differences in apparent destructive power in different fights. (Before this I was going mostly by memory, not having watched DBZ for years)

In one fight against Gohan after Cell but before Buu, the biggest destruction shown was buildings being smashed apart and man-sized craters dug, but Gohan was getting owned before Goku's spirit showed up. In another fight against adult Gohan, child Goten and Trunks, there were island-sized blasts and major geological upheaval and again they were getting owned before Goku showed up. And then of course there were all those planet-busting fights that I never saw, between Goku and Vegeta, Frieza, whatever... and supposedly some of those planet-destroying events were done very casually--yet even full-powered Kamehamehas often fail to produce the same effects.

Count me to be on neutral ground on this debate for now.

There are two possible explanations:
1. The Z-fighters can modulate the area effect of the blasts for general destruction over a large area or extra destructive power over a small area.
2. The planet-destroying blasts are a special-case chain reaction.

(1) is to some extent proven--Z-fighters can blow up huge chunks of landscape but the enemy caught in the blast could be quite unhurt; OTOH they could also release a blast in close quarters that does minimal damage to surroundings while the opponent is quite hurt. Somewhere in the middle you have (somebody whose name I don't know in English, he's a SSJ bad guy that looks a lot like Goku, I think there's a story about them being born in the same place ?_? ) making big craters in the ground and also hurting Goten and Trunks in the blast even though they dodged the energy ball itself.

Problem is whether this variation can scale up to blowing up planets.

However:

Apparently along the lines someone forgot the point where I mentioned "it must be proven that a DBZ character has produced the required force to compensate for the indicated recoil if we treat this as a DET event."

We are discussing that right now and apparently you can't see it.

Hmm... have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a full power Kamehameha and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES) and remained standing where he was? This would conclusively show that the stronger character has enough TK power to counter the recoil of a planet-busting blast, since he is able to counter the recoil at the *receiving* end (where it doesn't matter whether the blast energy was given by DET or not, the blasts have been shown to have devastating kinetic effects on an unprotected target regardless of the mechanism--unlike SAMA's examples)

Radditz taking a full powered Kamehameha from Goku and it doing nothing to him.

Tenshinhan firing his Kikiho attack at Nappa and not budging him (though it did crack his armor). It should be noted that Kikiho is one of the most powerful attacks in the series, and it seems to be almost pure kinetic force.

Vegeta firing a full powered attack at Frieza, which Frieza deflected easily. Piccolo even screamed at Vegeta, "Are you trying to kill us all!?"

Vegeta firing Final Flash for the first time at Cell. It takes a chunch out of him, but it doesn't budge him from the spot he was standing in at all. Once again, the spectators, Kuririn and Trunks, were worried that Vegeta would take out the planet with the blast. Vegeta explains that he merely focused it all on Cell.

Good enough for you?

If we suspect that planet-busting blasts are a special case, then the question becomes: have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a blast intended to blow up a planet and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES and releases its planet-busting energy with whatever mechanism) and remained standing where he was?

Also, it is possible that they use TK to push the ki blast forward rather than to counter recoil. And before you tell me that it is the same thing because of action and reaction, remember that Jedi also use TK to push massive objects without any signs of recoil. It is possible that they can't use TK on their own bodies to the extent that they can use it on external objects, hence their problem with high G environments.

Or, for all we know they could be allergic to high-G environments--given the consistency in DBZ that is as likely an explanation as any since they have shown acceleration far in excess of 100G when outside gravity rooms

[JodoForce]

Or, for all we know they could be allergic to high-G environments--given the consistency in DBZ that is as likely an explanation as any since they have shown acceleration far in excess of 100G when outside gravity rooms

(any Cell / Buu saga 'flash fight' with the opponents jumping around randomly so that the fight could only be depicted as flashes and shockwaves going up everywhere)

[SAMAS]

I just saw a few DBZ movies these two days, and frankly I'm confused by the huge differences in apparent destructive power in different fights. (Before this I was going mostly by memory, not having watched DBZ for years)

In one fight against Gohan after Cell but before Buu, the biggest destruction shown was buildings being smashed apart and man-sized craters dug, but Gohan was getting owned before Goku's spirit showed up.

Bojack. Of course, most of the attacks in that series were physical, with the occasional energy barrage.

In another fight against adult Gohan, child Goten and Trunks, there were island-sized blasts and major geological upheaval and again they were getting owned before Goku showed up.

Brolly II.

And then of course there were all those planet-busting fights that I never saw, between Goku and Vegeta, Frieza, whatever... and supposedly some of those planet-destroying events were done very casually--yet even full-powered Kamehamehas often fail to produce the same effects.

Actually, about six Kamehamehas have shown that power.

The first was against Vegita, to counter his Galick Gun.

The second was Goku's shot against Cell.

Three and Five were shot by Cell, to Kill Gohan and destroy the Earth/

And Four and Six were shot by Gohan to counter them.

Count me to be on neutral ground on this debate for now.

There are two possible explanations:
1. The Z-fighters can modulate the area effect of the blasts for general destruction over a large area or extra destructive power over a small area.
2. The planet-destroying blasts are a special-case chain reaction.

(1) is to some extent proven--Z-fighters can blow up huge chunks of landscape but the enemy caught in the blast could be quite unhurt; OTOH they could also release a blast in close quarters that does minimal damage to surroundings while the opponent is quite hurt. Somewhere in the middle you have (somebody whose name I don't know in English, he's a SSJ bad guy that looks a lot like Goku, I think there's a story about them being born in the same place ?_? ) making big craters in the ground and also hurting Goten and Trunks in the blast even though they dodged the energy ball itself.

The only real problem with the Chain-reaction theory is that in most cases, the destruction of the planet comes far too fast to be a chain reaction. In all the examples I've given(over and over and over), the destruction of the planet took about as much time as the destruction of Alderaan. One shot, *kaboom.*

If we suspect that planet-busting blasts are a special case, then the question becomes: have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a blast intended to blow up a planet and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES and releases its planet-busting energy with whatever mechanism) and remained standing where he was?

Cell. Twice. Vegita's Final Flash, and Goku's Kamehameha. In both cases, They fired full-powered shots(directed away from the planet, of course). and the portions of Cell that were not vaporized were still standing where he was when he was hit. This was exceptional in the case of Goku's shot, as Cell's entire body above the waistline was gone.

Also, it is possible that they use TK to push the ki blast forward rather than to counter recoil. And before you tell me that it is the same thing because of action and reaction, remember that Jedi also use TK to push massive objects without any signs of recoil. It is possible that they can't use TK on their own bodies to the extent that they can use it on external objects, hence their problem with high G environments.

Or, for all we know they could be allergic to high-G environments--given the consistency in DBZ that is as likely an explanation as any since they have shown acceleration far in excess of 100G when outside gravity rooms

It also depends on if they're using their Ki at any given time. Being in heavy gravity is a lot more than just a heavy weight. It aslo places a lot of strain on your body just to operate at normal parameters, much less the heavy training Goku and Vegita put themselves through.

It should also be noted that Goku typically wears weighted clothing. his boots alone are about 50-100 pounds put together, and that's not counting his undershirt and wristbands. According to Kai-o-sama, Saiyans would typically wear such clothing as well.

[JodoForce]

Actually, about six Kamehamehas have shown that power.

The first was against Vegita, to counter his Galick Gun.

The second was Goku's shot against Cell.

Three and Five were shot by Cell, to Kill Gohan and destroy the Earth/

And Four and Six were shot by Gohan to counter them.

Did any of these actually blow up a planet or at least blow up? I know 3-6 don't count because they didn't blow up at all--if those blasts bore into the earth the way it bore into Cell and obliterated him, the worst they would have done is to go in one side, out the other and make some new volcanos.

The only real problem with the Chain-reaction theory is that in most cases, the destruction of the planet comes far too fast to be a chain reaction. In all the examples I've given(over and over and over), the destruction of the planet took about as much time as the destruction of Alderaan. One shot, *kaboom.*

Well, a nuclear explosion is a chain reaction too. (note: I don't like this idea of a chain reaction either.)

If we suspect that planet-busting blasts are a special case, then the question becomes: have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a blast intended to blow up a planet and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES and releases its planet-busting energy with whatever mechanism) and remained standing where he was?

Same problem--the blasts didn't explode like they needed to destroy a planet. How about Goku vs Vegeta? Didn't Goku ever get in the way of some planet that Vegeta wanted to destroy?

It also depends on if they're using their Ki at any given time. Being in heavy gravity is a lot more than just a heavy weight. It aslo places a lot of strain on your body just to operate at normal parameters, much less the heavy training Goku and Vegita put themselves through.

It should also be noted that Goku typically wears weighted clothing. his boots alone are about 50-100 pounds put together, and that's not counting his undershirt and wristbands. According to Kai-o-sama, Saiyans would typically wear such clothing as well.

What's the difference? A G by acceleration is the same as a G by gravity--when you accelerate yourself by 100G you subject your body to the same force as when you are in a 100G gravity field, weighted clothing and all. If Goku were really in any danger of dying in 100G he should have literally flown himself to pieces in a flash-fight.

This should at least prove that under certain conditions Z-fighters have been known to subject themselves to far more than 100G with no ill effects.

[Darth_Shinji]

Not good enough for me I'm afraid.

All of your tk/recoil/kinetic force arguments run straight into the 'Goku nearly killed by the 100Gs incident on the spaceship to Namek. If he could muster the smallest fraction of the capabilities you are suggesting, he would have been in absolutely no danger. He also wouldn't have had his ass kicked by the mere ten Gs on King Kai's planet.

Actually no it doesn't. Z-fighters are quite weaker when unpowered up. Thats how they train, unpowered so that they are pushing their physical bodies abilities. Look at all the times Z-fighters are unable to do something (Like Goku not being able to hold up the dead champions weighs) Then they power up and easly accomplish it.

And how exactly do you think that Majin Buu was tearing apart reality, Samas? It sure as hell looked to me like he was tearing a giant portal to 'somewhere else'. On the Androids, didn't I establish that they weren't using the same energy source because they were undetectable to Z fighters? If I left that out of my quick'n'dirty explanation, my apologies.

While I don't know what the portal has anything to do with this. How you get that about the andriods is weird. Others themselves can claock themselves during the series. There is also the earlier andriods you had to absorb chi becuase they were said to use it and couldn't make it on there own.

[SAMAS]

Actually, about six Kamehamehas have shown that power.

The first was against Vegita, to counter his Galick Gun.

The second was Goku's shot against Cell.

Three and Five were shot by Cell, to Kill Gohan and destroy the Earth/

And Four and Six were shot by Gohan to counter them.

Did any of these actually blow up a planet or at least blow up? I know 3-6 don't count because they didn't blow up at all--if those blasts bore into the earth the way it bore into Cell and obliterated him, the worst they would have done is to go in one side, out the other and make some new volcanos.

Thankfully, no they didn't. Goku's one against Vegita was used because Vegita was firing his GG, and said that if Goku dodged the attack, it would simply destroy the planet under him. It hurt Vegita like hell, but he got off before it possibly exploded.

Three was fired while Cell was in orbit, and shot down at the earth. Consequently, Four was fired straight up.

Actually, Kamehamehas rarely explode, but the sometimes do. Like the one Fat Buu shot during his battle against Goku. Goku knocked it back, Buu knocked it away, and it flew off into the horizon and exploded destroying, according to Babidi, a tenth of the planet.

The only real problem with the Chain-reaction theory is that in most cases, the destruction of the planet comes far too fast to be a chain reaction. In all the examples I've given(over and over and over), the destruction of the planet took about as much time as the destruction of Alderaan. One shot, *kaboom.*

Well, a nuclear explosion is a chain reaction too. (note: I don't like this idea of a chain reaction either.)

Not to mention the scale difference.

If we suspect that planet-busting blasts are a special case, then the question becomes: have there been occasions where a weaker character (who would have to be as strong as the moon-busting Piccolo) attacked a stronger character with a blast intended to blow up a planet and the stronger character just stood there, took the blast (which EXPLODES and releases its planet-busting energy with whatever mechanism) and remained standing where he was?

Same problem--the blasts didn't explode like they needed to destroy a planet. How about Goku vs Vegeta? Didn't Goku ever get in the way of some planet that Vegeta wanted to destroy?

Earth(Previously mentined as a planet-busting Kamehameha). Aside from that, the examples with Goku and Vegita against Perfect Cell(mentioned previously), or Freeza against Goku(repeatedly mentioned previously), should do nicely.

It also depends on if they're using their Ki at any given time. Being in heavy gravity is a lot more than just a heavy weight. It aslo places a lot of strain on your body just to operate at normal parameters, much less the heavy training Goku and Vegita put themselves through.

It should also be noted that Goku typically wears weighted clothing. his boots alone are about 50-100 pounds put together, and that's not counting his undershirt and wristbands. According to Kai-o-sama, Saiyans would typically wear such clothing as well.

What's the difference? A G by acceleration is the same as a G by gravity--when you accelerate yourself by 100G you subject your body to the same force as when you are in a 100G gravity field, weighted clothing and all. If Goku were really in any danger of dying in 100G he should have literally flown himself to pieces in a flash-fight.

This should at least prove that under certain conditions Z-fighters have been known to subject themselves to far more than 100G with no ill effects.

[/quote]

First, in the 100G incedent, Goku's body and chi-reserves were depleted from training. After he survived the initial accident, he started training in 100G with no further difficulties. Later, Vegita trains in as much as 400Gs to prepare for the Androids.

Secondly, there is a difference between moving a part of your body, and moving anything else. That is to say, it takes more effort to move an object that weighs as much as your arm than it would to move your arm itself, much less something of greater mass.

[KK]

You also have to consider that they were training.

When training, they may not boost thier attributes with ki, since they want to work on their muscles.

[consequences]

Then Goku is an even bigger idiot than I have ever before postulated. With the power level being the single most important factor in every fight(apparently it equals speed, strength, and everything else), it becomes the most important single attribute to raise. Muscle after all does jack shit for stopping ye old Super Kamehameha.
Lets do some brief calculations, shall we?
The claim has been advanced that Goku was completely exhausted during the training sequence. If we take some of the least obnoxious capabilities attributed to him, and provide him with the ability to accelerate as Raditz supposedly did to .25C(a figure far less than that required to chuck the energy of a planet destroying blast) You find that to get up to that speed in one second(being conservative here, because the supposed time frame was much shorter than that) you find that a minimum acceleration of 7.5 million Gravities is required. This is 75 thousand times the figure Goku was desperately attempting to resist. To give a brief analogy, a healthy human can easily move a mile in 15 minutes, without excessively straining himself. To reach an equivalent state of exhaustion to that being claimed for goku, the human would have to make that mile in just over two years. except that those figures were for Raditz, who had at most a tenth of the power available to Goku as of the incident in question. Change that exhaustion figure to 2 decades to walk a mile. And Goku made a big deal at the end about training in one hundred Gs, even though by all of your claims, he should easily have been able to generate that much pressure on himself, and exercised his musles and power level at the same time. In fact, with the abilities claimed for Goku and his comrades, the gravity rooms that are made out to be oh so important are actually training handicaps.

King Kai's planet is even more ridiculous, because Goku had his ass kicked by the ten Gs, and was trying to catch the monkey before he realised it was training.

[Darth_Shinji]

Then Goku is an even bigger idiot than I have ever before postulated. With the power level being the single most important factor in every fight(apparently it equals speed, strength, and everything else), it becomes the most important single attribute to raise. Muscle after all does jack shit for stopping ye old Super Kamehameha.
Lets do some brief calculations, shall we?

Chi generation is directly connected to the health and skill of the subject. This is true for most anime.

The claim has been advanced that Goku was completely exhausted during the training sequence. If we take some of the least obnoxious capabilities attributed to him, and provide him with the ability to accelerate as Raditz supposedly did to .25C(a figure far less than that required to chuck the energy of a planet destroying blast) You find that to get up to that speed in one second(being conservative here, because the supposed time frame was much shorter than that) you find that a minimum acceleration of 7.5 million Gravities is required. This is 75 thousand times the figure Goku was desperately attempting to resist. To give a brief analogy, a healthy human can easily move a mile in 15 minutes, without excessively straining himself. To reach an equivalent state of exhaustion to that being claimed for goku, the human would have to make that mile in just over two years. except that those figures were for Raditz, who had at most a tenth of the power available to Goku as of the incident in question. Change that exhaustion figure to 2 decades to walk a mile. And Goku made a big deal at the end about training in one hundred Gs, even though by all of your claims, he should easily have been able to generate that much pressure on himself, and exercised his musles and power level at the same time. In fact, with the abilities claimed for Goku and his comrades, the gravity rooms that are made out to be oh so important are actually training handicaps.

King Kai's planet is even more ridiculous, because Goku had his ass kicked by the ten Gs, and was trying to catch the monkey before he realised it was training.

I have no understanding of your point. Chi is used to negate the effects of acceration and gravity in DB. What is so hard to understand about that? Your figures are flawed becuase of that fact. Its not Goku withstanding that stress by himself but with his Chi. We have said this constantly on this thread.

And why do not use this to stimulate gravity? Prehapes they can not manipulate it that finely, or the same reason Jedi do not use thier tk in the EU how they could considering our examples (Like reastaining people in the air or Sith taking far too long to snap necks.). Plot.

[JodoForce]

Then Goku is an even bigger idiot than I have ever before postulated. With the power level being the single most important factor in every fight(apparently it equals speed, strength, and everything else), it becomes the most important single attribute to raise. Muscle after all does jack shit for stopping ye old Super Kamehameha.

And there you were, theorizing that ki utilization is related to muscle tone or something. What happened to that?

Lets do some brief calculations, shall we?
The claim has been advanced that Goku was completely exhausted during the training sequence. If we take some of the least obnoxious capabilities attributed to him, and provide him with the ability to accelerate as Raditz supposedly did to .25C(a figure far less than that required to chuck the energy of a planet destroying blast) You find that to get up to that speed in one second(being conservative here, because the supposed time frame was much shorter than that) you find that a minimum acceleration of 7.5 million Gravities is required. This is 75 thousand times the figure Goku was desperately attempting to resist. To give a brief analogy, a healthy human can easily move a mile in 15 minutes, without excessively straining himself. To reach an equivalent state of exhaustion to that being claimed for goku, the human would have to make that mile in just over two years. except that those figures were for Raditz, who had at most a tenth of the power available to Goku as of the incident in question. Change that exhaustion figure to 2 decades to walk a mile. And Goku made a big deal at the end about training in one hundred Gs, even though by all of your claims, he should easily have been able to generate that much pressure on himself, and exercised his musles and power level at the same time. In fact, with the abilities claimed for Goku and his comrades, the gravity rooms that are made out to be oh so important are actually training handicaps.

King Kai's planet is even more ridiculous, because Goku had his ass kicked by the ten Gs, and was trying to catch the monkey before he realised it was training.

Well, you already know that Goku can accelerate at 7.5 million Gs and beyond in normal gravity or space, so obviously the 10G training bullshit would have to be discounted as Goku acting out of character and a problem with continuity. And since Goku will be fighting the Death Star in zero G, none of this matters.

[SAMAS]

Okay, for what we know about Ki in DB and DBZ:

Ki is linked to the condition of one's body. Therefore, the healthier and stronger you are, the more Ki you have.

Ki "Power Levels" are rated in either multiples or exponents. For example, while that farmer Raditz killed in the first DBZ episode had a power level of 5, Goku as of the first episode of DB had a power level of only 10. To clarify:

5 = Healthy, if overweight farmer
10 = 12-year-old Saiyan who can take an axe to the head and only get a bump.
100 = said Saiyan as a giant Weremonkey(Oozaru transformation multiplies your power level by 10).

In addition, the use of Ki to enhance yourself is at best reflexive. A fighter can be injured or even killed by a weaker attack if he is struck before he can bring his Ki up to absorb the hit(ref: Yamchua's death, Saiyan Saga; Goku's defeat of Brolly, Movie 8; Trunks' death, Cell Saga). This is why speed is so critical in Dragon Ball Z. If a fighter can manage to catch their opponent by suprise, before they can get their Ki up, they can defeat them without pulling out the planet-killing blasts.

[Yogi]

I think "struggling" at his training may be a bit of an exageration. When he was at King Kai's place when he first arrived, he was "struggling" but then when asked to jump, he jumped a hundred feet in the air. This was in his dead body, which doesn't regenerate energy well, and just after taking a million kilometer hike. In the gravity chamber, he had to struggle to preform feats up to his usual degree of skill, not struggle period.

[consequences]

I know nothing of the sort, Jodoforce, I simply trotted out one of the claims I have been forced to endure in my ongoing campaign. I have always maintained that such speed figures were utter tripe(normal people following movements, sound carrying during a fight, in more extreme cases the Z-fighters ability to see when traveling ftl, dust settling during a fight, the fact that the fusion time limit seemed about 1-for-1 with the episode time, in truly ridiculous claims the fact that subjective decades, centuries, or more would pass during the first second perceived by the outside). The one time I actually remember seeing a timer counting down was in the original DB, and it was counting at least 3 seconds for every second of episode time(yes, I sat there and kept track).

I don't know the mechanism by which they tap into the interuniversal energy I am postulating, it could be the pineal gland, sheer willpower, or the raw concentration of stupidity punching a hole in the space-time continuum. However, if simply working out in the gym was sufficient, Satan's fatfuck follower should have at least had some capability.

Darth Shinji, if Goku is resisting with his chi, and is capable of all of the crap that has been claimed, then King Kai's planet and the 100G incident should have had no effect. Its not just one incident, its a consistent theme that an acceleration of less than a thousand Gs can kick a Z-fighters ass.

Samas, if the use of Ki to enhance yourself is reflexive, then Goku should have felt a sharp pull, maybe hit the ground, and then carried on with his business, if all of your other claims are correct.

And Yogi, in the specific 100G incident I am reffering to, he was barely able to move at all. And where precisely does it say that the dead in DBZ don't regenerate energy well?