"Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

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Ralin
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

I don't doubt that Mab/Marcone/whoever else was in on it had people standing by to start dismantling the rest of Nicodemus's support structure too.

But yeah, PK, Nicodemus may not be powerful persay, but he's tremendously competent. Being desperate and having nothing to lose might not make him more dangerous to the world at large (though I sure as hell wouldn't bet on it) but he's damned well motivated now
his angel who probably doesn't even like how badly he let himself get played and might want a new master,
On that note, Nicodemus thinks that he is the one leading the Fallen. Pretty sure he's not getting out of this story without being proven wrong.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by LadyTevar »

Ralin wrote:
LadyTevar wrote:I will remind folks that Michael was not holding back anymore. Nicodemus had rejected Forgiveness once again, and Michael started fighting not to cripple, but to WIN. The only thing that saved Niccy's neck was desperation.
Yes, there's that too. And it also seems likely Michael was just flat out stronger/more powerful/more skilled than he ever had been before due to the effects of Uriel's grace, though there's no way to quantify how much.
Actually, Butcher points out that Michael was winning through simple physics -- in a fight between equally skilled fighters, the smaller man will lose. Michael had weight and size on Niccy and was finally able to not hold back. Even if Michael had been at his prime without Angelic Blessing, he would have beat Niccy.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

That's the difference I guess, between Shiro and Michael. Shiro going all out had to beat Nicodemus with pure skill due to them being what I'll call relatively equal size. Michael going full bore with what was the broadsword out of those three weapons was basically a freight train for the average sized Nicodemus.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

LadyTevar wrote: Actually, Butcher points out that Michael was winning through simple physics -- in a fight between equally skilled fighters, the smaller man will lose. Michael had weight and size on Niccy and was finally able to not hold back. Even if Michael had been at his prime without Angelic Blessing, he would have beat Niccy.
Wellllll that's how Harry interpreted it. Not sure he was right, especially since Nicodemus probably was a fair bit more skilled than Michael. And let's not forget: Nicodemus had turned the tables when Harry intervened.

Most likely it was a combination of all those.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

Ralin wrote: Wellllll that's how Harry interpreted it. Not sure he was right, especially since Nicodemus probably was a fair bit more skilled than Michael. And let's not forget: Nicodemus had turned the tables when Harry intervened.

Most likely it was a combination of all those.
Nicodemus turned the tables by using the Grail as a shield. Harry called his bluff, and he was bluffing. That simple. Michael was winning ala Freight Train vs Car.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

Gaidin wrote:
Ralin wrote: Wellllll that's how Harry interpreted it. Not sure he was right, especially since Nicodemus probably was a fair bit more skilled than Michael. And let's not forget: Nicodemus had turned the tables when Harry intervened.

Most likely it was a combination of all those.
Nicodemus turned the tables by using the Grail as a shield. Harry called his bluff, and he was bluffing. That simple. Michael was winning ala Freight Train vs Car.
Winning is winning. The fact that he was bluffing wouldn't make Michael's leg work any better.

Just saying, fighting dirty and cheating whenever possible has always been part of Nicodemus's MO.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

Ralin wrote: Winning is winning. The fact that he was bluffing wouldn't make Michael's leg work any better.

Just saying, fighting dirty and cheating whenever possible has always been part of Nicodemus's MO.
So? As soon as Harry removed the Grail from the equation by calling that bluff and proving Nicodemus wasn't willing to destroy the Grail either Nicodemus ran like a dog with his tail between his legs. Why? Because Nicodemus wasn't winning that physical fight. Freight Train vs Car. Period. Full stop. The next time we see Nic was when he was exiting the Underworld and making through the Bank and complementing Harry for a job well done and going to the Carpenter's house.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

Gaidin wrote:
Ralin wrote: Winning is winning. The fact that he was bluffing wouldn't make Michael's leg work any better.

Just saying, fighting dirty and cheating whenever possible has always been part of Nicodemus's MO.
So? As soon as Harry removed the Grail from the equation by calling that bluff and proving Nicodemus wasn't willing to destroy the Grail either Nicodemus ran like a dog with his tail between his legs. Why? Because Nicodemus wasn't winning that physical fight. Freight Train vs Car. Period. Full stop. The next time we see Nic was when he was exiting the Underworld and making through the Bank and complementing Harry for a job well done and going to the Carpenter's house.
Yes, because Harry intervened. After Michael took a wound that would have changed the scenario.

Maybe this is hair-splitting, but it seems worth mentioning to me. The Genoskwa was still alive and kicking, and we know something like a bunch of broken ribs isn't going to slow a Denarian down for long. And we still haven't seen Nicodemus go One Winged Angel with Anduriel. I'm not saying that they didn't get the better of him, but he fled because he didn't like the odds, not because he didn't think he could win.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

Ralin wrote: Yes, because Harry intervened. After Michael took a wound that would have changed the scenario.

Maybe this is hair-splitting, but it seems worth mentioning to me. The Genoskwa was still alive and kicking, and we know something like a bunch of broken ribs isn't going to slow a Denarian down for long. And we still haven't seen Nicodemus go One Winged Angel with Anduriel. I'm not saying that they didn't get the better of him, but he fled because he didn't like the odds, not because he didn't think he could win.
You're right, it is hair splitting. Because Harry has been as up front about Nicodemus about the fact that he's just as willing to cheat in these conflicts as Niccy is. Here's how it is. Order of events from the book. The first thought in his head as soon as he thought he was free enough of his fight with Ascher was that Niccy was the more dangerous was 'let's go back Michael up'. You are hair splitting like a bastard. Dresden cheated like a motherfucker and put Niccy on his knees for Michael. It hit him in the left side below the ribs. Michael swung down, and that's when he used the grail as a shield, and Michael held back, and Niccy stabbed him. Both were visibly hurt, Niccy first. Dresden summoned a hailstone again, Niccy tries the Grail As A Shield Method(TM) with Harry, and Harry just goes and calls him on it, and Niccy turns and used his own body to shield the Grail, and the hailstone struck his right shoulderblade. That is when Nicodemus ran like a dog with his tail between his legs. When one of them called his bluff on the priceless artifacts.

To list of about one page and a paragraph or two:
1 - Dresden leaves the lesser of two evils(Ascher) to jump Niccy with Michael.
2 - Michael drives Nicodemus off the edge, and he rolls to his feet on the ground below.
3 - Dresden surprise attacks him with a hailstone going about the "size of a very large apple" and "moving considerably faster than a major-league fastball" and it "hit him in the left side, below the ribs". Note, "It didn't break when it hit. Nicodemus did." Nicodemus fell to a knee. (this means niccy is wounded first)
4 - Michael leaps down to Nicodemus.
5 - Nicodemus uses Holy Grail as shield.
6 - Michael stops his blow.
7 - Nicodemus stabs Michael in knee.
8 - Harry calls another hailstone.
9 - Nicodemus holds Grail up between them before Harry can throw it.
10 - Harry throws it anyway.
11 - Nicodemus turns between hailstone and Grail, and takes hit from hailstone in the right shoulderblade.
12 - Nicodemus runs like a bitch now that he knows the Grail is not a good bluffing shield. We don't see him until the real world vault.

Now. Stop splitting hairs. Niccy got his ass utterly handed to him. Utterly. By both Michael and Michael and Harry.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

Fine, I'm being dumb. Dropping it.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by PainRack »

Gaidin wrote: Now. Stop splitting hairs. Niccy got his ass utterly handed to him. Utterly. By both Michael and Michael and Harry.
Except that Michael, without Uriel grace, wasn't beating Nick on that train back in Death Masks either. Hell, if anything, he and Deidre were turning the tables on Dresden, two knights of the Cross and Marcone.......

Michael himself explicitly stated that in a swordfight against Nick, he wouldn't bet on winning due to Nicomaedeus skill. The fight in the novel was amazingly different compared to earlier battles. For one thing, the noose didn't appear to be working as well as it was implied in earlier novels, although we don't really see Dresden being able to lay down any serious magic on Nick then either.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

PainRack wrote:
Gaidin wrote: Now. Stop splitting hairs. Niccy got his ass utterly handed to him. Utterly. By both Michael and Michael and Harry.
Except that Michael, without Uriel grace, wasn't beating Nick on that train back in Death Masks either. Hell, if anything, he and Deidre were turning the tables on Dresden, two knights of the Cross and Marcone.......

Michael himself explicitly stated that in a swordfight against Nick, he wouldn't bet on winning due to Nicomaedeus skill. The fight in the novel was amazingly different compared to earlier battles. For one thing, the noose didn't appear to be working as well as it was implied in earlier novels, although we don't really see Dresden being able to lay down any serious magic on Nick then either.
So? You got anything that counters Vault Nicky gets his ass handed to him that doesn't involve material from books five and ten books earlier? You got anything that counters Endgame Nicky gets his ass handed to him? Pretty much every character came a ways in the series, whether through sheer development, or even if just an Archangel doing him a favor. Except Nicky. Not that I blame him...2000 years old...could be pretty set in his ways.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by LadyTevar »

Gaidin wrote: You got anything that counters Vault Nicky gets his ass handed to him that doesn't involve material from books five and ten books earlier? You got anything that counters Endgame Nicky gets his ass handed to him? Pretty much every character came a ways in the series, whether through sheer development, or even if just an Archangel doing him a favor. Except Nicky. Not that I blame him...2000 years old...could be pretty set in his ways.
That is an interesting point. Niccy might be starting to lose it, but we won't know for sure until the next book.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Darth Yan »

He's in a weaker spot than he's been in for a long time.

1.) Most of his followers are gone. Deirdre's dead by his hand, two heavy hitters are trapped in the one place they can't tempt mortals (Ursiel definately is Lasciel maybe or maybe not), and his mortal followers saw him flee like a coward. Tessa probably won't work with him ever again after what he did with Deirdre.)

2.) His reputation is gone. Very few factions will be willingly to open work with him again. Unless several centuries past he's going to be limited to whatever Denarian followers he can scrounge about (maybe his cook will stay with him.)

3.) The other weapons he wanted will be locked where he can't easily get them.

He's probably going to be lashing out like a wounded beast at this point, which may actually make him even more dangerous. His plan will most likely have a lot of high risk destruction (i.e. much worse than the plague).
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by HeavensThunderHammer »

Another point here... Anyone irritated Harry went for Murphy instead of Molly?
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Steve »

As in for his backup? Because the Winter Lady participating directly would have probably tipped the game a bit.

Or as in for his love interest? Because, uh.... why would we since it's been hinted since "Changes" that Karrin and Harry have been ready to move their relationship to that level? And haven't because Harry mostly died (but only mostly!) and then came back with the Winter Knight mantle and its scary ability to give him a boner in the middle of violence and uch.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

Well, Molly was also indisposed as far as backup goes. And as for relationships, those two still have too much of a master-apprentice process. Hell he still calls her grasshopper informally and she answers to it. If Murphy's ever out of the picture as far as relationships go maybe then.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

I'm reasonably sure Harry and Karrin will be getting married within a few books. It all fits: they're both going to want be serious, Harry has been gradually building a family over the course of the series and that's the logical next step, he still regrets not asking Susan, wanting Maggie to have a mother, etc.

That said, I've come around to thinking Harry/Molly would be less creepy exploitative than I used see it as.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Terralthra »

It also racks up the drama potential of "hot young person, formerly under Harry's supervision, who can technically order Harry around, but doesn't really yet appreciate that, and also doesn't really understand how being the Winter Knight has changed Harry's sex/violence drives" to have him be married to someone else when that situation explodes.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Gaidin »

Ralin wrote: That said, I've come around to thinking Harry/Molly would be less creepy exploitative than I used see it as.
Well, it's not really even the exploitative part due to the sheer age wizards live to. All Harry has to come to is the part where he just doesn't think of her as an apprentice anymore. The only thing literally putting a stop to it(assuming Murphy isn't around the relationship scene) is the Winter Lady/Winter Knight dynamic. Given what Maeve did to him in their fight, I'd say your 'creepy exploitative' worries are uhh...reversed. That's some irony for you if I've got my literary elements right.
Terralthra wrote:It also racks up the drama potential of "hot young person, formerly under Harry's supervision, who can technically order Harry around, but doesn't really yet appreciate that, and also doesn't really understand how being the Winter Knight has changed Harry's sex/violence drives" to have him be married to someone else when that situation explodes.
All things being equal, I think Harry's one of the few people who's bothered to and figured out how to keep that drive under control.
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Re: "Skin Game" Discussion (Dresden Files novel - Spoilers!)

Post by Ralin »

Gaidin wrote: Well, it's not really even the exploitative part due to the sheer age wizards live to. All Harry has to come to is the part where he just doesn't think of her as an apprentice anymore. The only thing literally putting a stop to it(assuming Murphy isn't around the relationship scene) is the Winter Lady/Winter Knight dynamic. Given what Maeve did to him in their fight, I'd say your 'creepy exploitative' worries are uhh...reversed. That's some irony for you if I've got my literary elements right.
It's less the age difference as the idea that Harry has spent years in a position of considerable authority over her and that's likely to carry over psychologically even if she's arguably his boss now.

The thing that undermines that for me is that, well, as much as she respected and hero worshipped him she never really was all that obedient of an apprentice in the first place. So I don't think there's that much reflexive authority to carry over
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