The Dark Knight Rises (Spoilers)

[JLTucker]

The Dent Act does not give parole to any prisoner. This is the oppression bane was talking about outside of Blackgate. Some who may have been rehabilitated have no way of getting out.

Ah, right. But considering they all picked up a gun and started with the killing and looting I gotta wonder just how parolable these guys were. Again, more missed opportunities.

That's irrelevant. The Act was oppressive and that was the point. So, no, there were no missed opportunities. And do you want to know why they picked up the gun? Because they were oppressed.

[RogueIce]

I'm not a lawyer or anything, but this is how I see it.

Revealing Harvey's crimes would be a problem because it would threaten all the convictions he had against the Mob and organized crime in general up to that point. Any competent defense attorney could get almost any of those convictions thrown out. They could even attack the Dent Act itself, because it was based on a lie. Fruit of the poisoned tree and all that.

Hmmm..... I see

Not so much...

The convictions being overturned...maybe. But then again, the state could make a good argument that Dent only went crazy after being kidnapped by the Joker and having half his face blown up in a terrorist bombing. Since those two events in isolation could be pretty damned traumatic (never mind having both happen to you) they could probably preserve his earlier convictions by pointing out he only snapped after, yet before was still fully competent and not corrupt.

Regarding the Dent Act, I don't think it being based "on a lie" would matter one way or another, in terms of automatic appeals. That said it would most likely get repealed and those sentences denying parole modified due to public backlash, but I don't think 'fruit of the poisoned tree' or anything like that would apply.

[Guardsman Bass]

Dent was showing signs of losing it even before getting half his face blown off. The scene where he was threatening the fake cop/insane escaped prisoner showed that, and even included Batman interrupting to tell him that if he'd been caught doing this, he'd lose all credibility with the case.

[Havok]

Uh that scene shows that... not at all.

He was flipping a fixed coin. He had no intention of hurting that prisoner. He was merely trying to scare the shit out of him to get information, which as has been proven in Gotham, works wonders.

What the scene shows is bad judgement on Dent's part because he was trying to act like the Batman, whom he felt was a hero. That wasn't his role, (it could be excused as the next target was shown to be the woman he loved and wanted to marry) he was the paragon of law and justice that Gotham needed.

This isn't Big Bad Harv from BTAS, he isn't already crazy. Nolan goes out of his way to show this.
Dent snaps with the combined tragedies of listening to Rachel blow up, the guilt of surviving, the betrayal of trust by cops he KNEW were dirty and no one listened to him about and the complete mutilation of his face. Even then, as Two-Face, he didn't display signs of the split personality that the comics and animated shows always ascribed to him.
He is a tortured soul that is simply taking revenge on those that he was wronged by that led to his dis-figuration and Rachel's death in a manner that is consistent with how he feels they happened, by 50/50 chance.

As for the Dent Act, it worked because people believed in what he stood for. If they had known that he ultimately started killing criminals and cops alike and did so completely disregarding the law then they see that there is no one that can truly rise above what Gotham had become and that the Joker was right. Then they still look to the Batman for salvation which he really can't bring to the city.

Also, as the Mayor says in his speech, there was already call for the Dent Act to be repealed. It clearly wasn't unanimously supported. Maybe think of it like the Patriot Act. Right after 9-11 everyone kneejerked and passed it, but then with hind sight and emotions no longer boiling over, you realize it wasn't right. After Ras and the Joker, Gotham was ready to kneejerk.

[RogueIce]

Dent was showing signs of losing it even before getting half his face blown off. The scene where he was threatening the fake cop/insane escaped prisoner showed that, and even included Batman interrupting to tell him that if he'd been caught doing this, he'd lose all credibility with the case.

In addition to what Havok said about the scene, there's also the fact to consider that there were only two people there for that: the thug Harvey was "threatening" and Batman.

I doubt people are going to believe the thug, especially after the fact where the state could just say he was making it up after news of Harvey snapping (for obvious and understandable reasons and that clearly took place after his convictions made) to cash in or whatever.

And Batman isn't exactly going to be testifying in a court of law anytime soon, now is he?

[Havok]

That's a good point. Harvey went out of his way to go out of his way so that people wouldn't see what he was doing.

[Erik von Nein]

That's irrelevant. The Act was oppressive and that was the point. So, no, there were no missed opportunities. And do you want to know why they picked up the gun? Because they were oppressed.

It failed because we were never shown what kind of prisoners they were, just prisoners. That they all joined his revolution where he immediately started executing CEOs and various other people shows their moral fiber, in that they probably didn't deserve bail in the first place. The movie didn't show anyone suffering for it, it just told us, and the only time we saw any one of the prisoners they were all happily joining this mass murderer's revolution.

Besides, "sentence without parole" isn't really that different from what currently exists in the system. It's already an option. I don't even know what that act was supposed to do, then. Made it a mandatory part of sentencing if people are involved in organized crime? Who knows.

[Havok]

They said what type of prisoners they were, "organized crime", i.e., mafia, gangsters, the men that the Joker brought under his umbrella. These are life long criminals that get no parole.
That doesn't mean they never get out, it just means they do all their time. That isn't honestly all that unreasonable.

These are not average criminals that get busted for carrying a gun or prostitution or buying cocaine, accidentally killing someone with their car or whatever, hence why there is a specific prison, Black Gate, set up for them.

I mean the idea that some white collared dude that embezzled from his company, or a blue collar dude that beat up his boss, is going to get broken out and is all of a sudden gonna grab an AK and start executing people is pretty fucking stupid. If that is what you saw in that movie, you weren't paying any kind of fucking attention.

[Surlethe]

I think the movie would have been more compelling if it had shown that the Dent Act were being abused to lock up the small-time criminals instead of just locking up gangsters. Then it would have made sense for Bane to give a big speech before blowing open the prison, instead of just quietly breaking into the prison and freeing more men for his army. The movie tried to show that Bane created a popular uprising, but it didn't really lay enough groundwork to show that there was enough latent support.

[JME2]

I think the movie would have been more compelling if it had shown that the Dent Act were being abused to lock up the small-time criminals instead of just locking up gangsters. Then it would have made sense for Bane to give a big speech before blowing open the prison, instead of just quietly breaking into the prison and freeing more men for his army. The movie tried to show that Bane created a popular uprising, but it didn't really lay enough groundwork to show that there was enough latent support.

Yeah, a little more groundwork would have helped.

Just got back from seeing it. Some of the plot points were spoiled for me due to the press coverage from the Aurora shooting -- such as the nuke -- and Miranda Tate's true identity. That one really bugged me, but since I only knew the truth, the details and smaller revelations were appreciated, like the twist regarding the child in the pit.

I might as well also point out that I'd already guessed most of them -- including Talia's identity - based on my knowledge of the comics' characters and the storylines Nolan used as well as the storytelling mechanics of the trilogy's third act.

Now, what I did like:

* Back-to-Back Viewing: I'm glad I took some people's advice to re-watch the first two films before going into this. It'd been a while since I'd seen them and there so many little thematic and plot points that really built on what had come before. It definitely plays better.

* Bruce's Health: This was spot-on, showing you don't wage an urban war on crime without it taking a toll on your body. TDK had already set this up with Alfred's concern about his physical limits. The mythology nods to Batman Beyond and Kingdom Come with the cane and the exo-skeleton were also nice.

* The Greek Chorus: Alfred's points were valid about addressing how the story of Batman ends and that Bruce was on a self-destructive path. It was a nice element brought over from KnightQuest.

* Catwoman: Anne Hathaway fucking nailed Selina's spunk; perfect casting.

* Bane: Hardy also knocked this out of the ballpark. You can't beat Ledger's Joker, but he really sold Bane as a much different threat. When the theatrical trailer debuted last Fall, Stravo pointed out that each central villain has been a different kind of threat. When Batman faced Ra's, he was facing his mentor and surrogate father figure. With Joker, he was facing his equal: a costumed freak who represented the chaos to his attempts to achieve order. With Bane, he was essentially facing himself: A fellow brother of the League of Shadows with the same training and cunning.

* Judge Crane: It was good to see Murphy back as Crane one more time. Which leads me into...

* No Joker: I'm kinda glad there was no sign of the Clown. Even if he had appeared -- and I'm assuming we'd have seen him as the Kangaroo Court judge -- I'm assuming the League would have killed him as he was too much of a wild card.

* League of Shadows: On one hand, I kinda wish Bane hadn't had a connection since the League had had the spotlight in the first film. On the other hand, it shows Bruce's arrogance and lack of vision in assuming that the League died with Ra's a decade earlier.

* The Ghul Family: To be fair, Talia had been subtlety set up way back in the first film. I liked the inter-cutting with footage from the first film as the untold story of the death of Ra's wife was finally revealed. And it was also great to get Liam Neeson as back as Ra's one more time. David Warner is still the definitive Demon's Head, but Neeson is excellent. Even from beyond the grave, his legacy haunted Bruce. And Talia's motivations here were different enough from the comics to keep it interesting.

I'd rate it as this generation's Return of the Jedi: a flawed, but fitting end to the trilogy and this incarnation of the Dark Knight.

3.75/5

[Faqa]

I felt this was overall a very flawed movie. In ways that surprised me. I think the reason I would still define it as good is that it made it's themes and direction clear enough, and those were good enough to forgive the flaws in execution. Does anyone else get the feeling it was chopped down from a much longer cut? The editing of some scenes is extremely choppy, making them look like isolated moments in a much larger context. Further, the sheer number of new, important characters introduced here needed more time to properly resonate - Miranda/Talia suffered especially from this. The revelation that she was indeed Talia felt incredibly tacked on, perhaps because indeed there was nothing much done with her after that - she just sort of drove the damn bomb around. The character felt like she was intended to be much deeper than she looked.... but the whole thing flopped.

Bruce's journey, on the other hand, felt earned. The movie had plenty of problems, but Bale played the character to perfection, and his eventual ending was very fitting as a culmination of the journey we'd seen him take for 3 movies. The series was never shy about the real cost of being Batman, and so it makes sense that Bruce, being a person as opposed to a superhuman drawing, would choose to leave. This was planned to be the culmination of the series from day 1 of penning Batman Begins, I'd bet. But Nolan needed to give Bruce something to live for after losing Rachel. Hence...

Selina Kyle. Now THIS was the big flop of the movie. I have nothing against Hathaway - she did excellent work with the material she was given. But the movie simply did not convincingly portray Selina as a real person as opposed to a plot device with cat ears. And I deeply did not buy her relationship with Bruce. Oh, I got the DIRECTION it was supposed to go in - he sees something good in her that she refuses to acknowledge, until the climax. I get it. But... I got it through dialog that didn't seem to be tied to any real action. They had no convincing chemistry, and Batman's attitude towards her seemed sort of... forced. As though he'd just read in the script that he's supposed to treat her with more respect than a common street criminal, so he does. I did feel the movie sold Selina's mercenary nature and her dissatisfaction with Gotham after Bane set up camp... but I just don't feel it sold her turnaround. And, as Blake pointed out, she's a "hungry girl" for someone who just wants a blank slate. And yet she rides off with Bruce into the sunset in the end, which certainly did not feel earned.
Sidenote - right at the beginning of the movie, when she escapes Wayne Manor, you get an idea of what kind of shape Hathaway got into for the role - she pulls off a sort of smooth jump to the windowsill with her face fully visible, so it's clearly her and not a stuntperson. Excellent dedication. It really is a shame.

Blake, on the other hand, just puzzled me. While he comes closest to being a fully-realized character in terms of screentime, Joseph Gordon-Levitt never seems at ease in the role. He never felt like the streetwise hothead (note - next time, try casting a guy who DOESN'T constantly look contemplative if you want a "hothead") the movie kept telling us he was. He just seemed like... a dude, who happened to have a police uniform and lurched between various parts of the plot. Entirely too bland for the man who is supposed to have the drive and force to be the next Batman. I liked his moment screaming at the military at the end... but for the most part, this guy just didn't work for me. And I think this was a giant mismatch between actor and role.

Then we get to Bane. Now Bane is one thing this movie did COMPLETELY right. Hardy's performance was terrifying, and Bane's actions actually match his words. And his being Talia's lapdog actually makes a lot of sense in retrospect. Bane was never anything but completely businesslike and severe about his crimes. Oh, he had his own ideas about Gotham, but he never looked like he was doing anything but a job when bringing Gotham to it's knees. Knowing he simply subsumed his will in Talia's makes that far more logical. Just about the only signs of real passion I saw from the guy was making fun of Batman in their first fight. To be fair, that was the one time there was someone in front of him that he had to take seriously. And yet, you could see the sort of brutal charisma he had in his scenes speaking to Gotham at large. Some of that is just his sheer size, but by no means all.

The scene where Bane kills Daggert is my favorite in the movie. The moment Bane said "And you think this gives you power over me?", you could feel the atmosphere go all "oh SHIT....".

Now, the overall plot made about as much sense as the Nolanverse movies ever do - which is to say, not much. Again with the magic cultists who can let the main villain do anything, anywhere. Again with the unbelievable technology in a supposedly grounded verse. And somehow, Bane's stock exchange stunt bothered me a lot. Why isn't "uh... I supposedly made those trades when a bunch of thugs STORMED THE EXCHANGE AND WERE SEEN TO BE MANIPULATING THE COMPUTERS THERE" a good enough reason to pretty much immediately reverse the transactions? Or at least give Bruce the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't that crazy, even if the travails of the global market meant he couldn't access his money for a while? Never mind the police surviving underground for three months, or even the Gotham PD really sending ALL their men underground. And again, the editing seemed choppy in places. But, like the rest of the Nolanverse movies, none of this significantly impacted the enjoyment of the movie for me. Although the movie wasn't quite good enough to make me outright not CARE about the flaws, the way TDK or BB did.

And the themes? Excellent. Bane's plot showed us the Gotham that Batman is fighting for. The one that has police officers charging tanks barehanded to save their city. Quite a change from the cowering institute of corruption the police were in the first two movies, yes? I think that shot was what convinced Batman he'd really succeeded. The real protectors of Gotham were willing to give everything for the city. And so it really doesn't need him.

As for "Occupy Gotham" - I think this is an aspect of the movie that is going to be analyzed to death about it. I don't think the Nolan brothers really let the Occupy movement dictate their writing - but nonetheless, the movie said certain things at a certain time, and will be judged for it. And in that context, it is troubling to see that the series' undercurrent of economic inequality be ignored in favor of painting the entire movement against the rich as the worst sort of anarchy, and essentially an empty front for the plans of a brutal warlord. The poor of Gotham were A Thing in these movies. Poverty was what drove Joe Chill to his initial crime. The first movie showed us entire areas of the city that Gotham seemed to have written off. And they literally abandoned the Narrows as "lost" at the end of it. Come to think of it, why WERE there so many mentally ill people on the streets of Gotham in TDK for the Joker to recruit? And TDKR continued this, showing us through Blake the poorer side of the city, contrasted with the high society we usually saw through Bruce. And all of this... ended up being nothing. Bane does not mobilize the poor and disenfranchised for his revolution - he uses the mob's thugs. And the representative of the simple people ruling the streets? Crane and his court. I just deeply don't get this.

Meanwhile, this movie attacked the idea of a city needing a hero like Batman at all. Who is Batman, the movie asks, the man who presumes to lie to the city for it's own good? Ultimately, he does not rule Gotham, nor should he be making decisions for it. Ultimately, people of agency run Gotham, not children. One man, however powerful, should not presume to dictate what they know or do. You could probably tie this into Wayne's privilege of birth, however much he might have rejected the trappings of wealth. The film seemed to be trying to show Batman's decision at the end of TDK as a slippery slope down the road of thinking otherwise. And I get that, though I think more of the ramifications of the Dent Act should have been dealt with - why, for example, is it so terrible to lock away the mob's thugs without parole? I could think of an answer, but the movie didn't supply even the hint of one. I think the idea here was very good - not only does Bruce need to stop being Batman, GOTHAM needs to stop needing Batman - but sort of understated in execution.

Last point. Does anyone else think this script, or at least it's concept WAS intended to majorly feature the Joker before Ledger's death? The chaos Gotham was thrown into after Bane's takeover was exactly the situation the Nolanverse Joker always wanted for Gotham. It seems tailor-made for him to step into. I've heard sentiments that Crane's cameo at the head of a kangaroo court was originally meant to be the Joker's. I disagree - while the whole setting is perfect for the Timmverse Joker, the Nolanverse Joker is far too vicious to play that kind of joke (while it perfectly fit Crane, who developed a sense of humor to go with his mania). I'm thinking he might have been more conceived in Selina's role - at least insofar as helping Batman in the goal of saving Gotham from being blown up. He likes anarchy, he wouldn't want it blown up by some dude with a stick up his ass. That would be BORING.

I really liked this movie in a lot of ways - perhaps because it tried to do some really incredible things. It's just a shame it couldn't measure up in execution.

[Faqa]

Ghetto edit: The shot of Alfred in the cafe at the end annoyed me. Specifically, the fact that they felt the need to have the camera cut over to Bruce and Selina. Alfred just waving gets the point across just fine. Cutting to show Bruce waving back just seemed insulting to the viewer's memory and intelligence.

[JME2]

One other point I wanted to make was about the soundtrack.

While James Newton Howard was missed, Zimmer went all out. This might just be my favorite soundtrack of the trilogy and it was great to hear the familiar themes from the preceding films return one more time. And I LOVE Bane's leitmotif. When it was playing during both the first Batman/Bane fight and during the police charge, it was terrifying and awesome simultaneously.

[Skylon]

Saw it while in Vegas, I really enjoyed it, but agree it has a "Return of the Jedi" vibe to it, with some of the concepts not totally flying but it works very well thematically. For all RotJ's faults, it brings an amazingly satisfying closure to Luke Skywalker (and Vader's) journey - similarly here for Bruce Wayne.

While Bane's "will of the people" was tons of armed thugs, we do see "normal" people rise up to an extent. When the initial rise against the rich happened, I distinctly remember a beat where a doorman looked like he was beating up a well to do person. But, as noted, end of the day, his "message" was bullshit.

I also like how the film evoked "Dark Knight Returns" without taking the whole plot. Bruce returning after years, a police official determined to bring in Batman when Gordon is side-lined - heck, the dialogue of the veteran cop telling his young partner when Batman comes back "you're in for a show". Bane also parallels the mutant leader during his first fight with Bruce, (more than Bane in "Knightfall") commenting how he was fighting him like a "young man", something he wasn't any longer. At the end, I half expected the film to end with "Dark Knight Returns" ending, with Bruce, having convinced the world he's dead, waiting in the cave to mentor Blake (not quite the army he had at the end of the comic, but close enough thematically). To be honest, I expected the plot to be more in line with "Knightfall" with Bane actually wearing Batman down to exhaustion before breaking him...instead, Bruce just wasn't ready. From a pacing standpoint it was the right call.

So, when did everyone who had knowledge of the comic call Miranda Tate as Talia? When her in Bruce and her had sex, I pretty much made up my mind we were going to get a reveal she was Talia. I thought it worked, but was horribly underutilized and had one of the most brazen "Bond villain" moments of gloating I have seen in years. I really appreciated Bane's "Yeah she said wait, but I'm gonna kill you" moment after she left.

I also appreciated the proud tradition of Gotham's Mayor getting killed. Seriously, who the hell in their right mind would run for that office?

As for the Ledger's role had he lived? I am not sure. Nolan has seemed committed to do something a bit different each film. I also think, while Joker would have worked as judge at the kangaroo court, but I am not surprised if it was intended for Scarecrow from the start, to carry him through all three films. Frankly it seems too small a roll to put him through.

Two edits:

1) I agree, I seriously expected the film to go to the credits when we saw Alfred nod.

2) Seconded on the soundtrack, I loved the triumphant use of the Batman theme as Bruce climbs out of the Pit.

[JLTucker]

Ghetto edit: The shot of Alfred in the cafe at the end annoyed me. Specifically, the fact that they felt the need to have the camera cut over to Bruce and Selina. Alfred just waving gets the point across just fine. Cutting to show Bruce waving back just seemed insulting to the viewer's memory and intelligence.

A rebuttal that I heard is that without it, Kyle would have just disappeared. That would be far more egregious and definitely the best evidence that Catwoman was only there to solve problems.

[Pendleton]

One other point I wanted to make was about the soundtrack.

While James Newton Howard was missed, Zimmer went all out. This might just be my favorite soundtrack of the trilogy and it was great to hear the familiar themes from the preceding films return one more time. And I LOVE Bane's leitmotif. When it was playing during both the first Batman/Bane fight and during the police charge, it was terrifying and awesome simultaneously.

The crowdsourcing of the "Gotham's Reckoning" chant is awesome. I love how each film has a clear theme and that applies to the soundtrack. The interview with Zimmer and Howard on TDK Blu-ray goes in depth into the theme for The Joker and how Nolan was listening to hours of mixes produced when on flights, to pick the right one.

I do miss the obvious Howard influences from themes like "Harvey Two-Face". The last few on TDKR score are awesome and ending with a variation of "Lasiurus" and "Corynorhirus" crossed with "A Watchful Guardian" is well done.

A rebuttal that I heard is that without it, Kyle would have just disappeared. That would be far more egregious and definitely the best evidence that Catwoman was only there to solve problems.

This makes sense, as I had absolutely no idea Kyle would be the love interest in the end. There's always that Batman and Catwoman thing from the previous films and comics, but this followed through far better

[Pendleton]

I also agree on The Joker vs. Scarecrow in TDKR. I really don't think The Joker was going to be in TDKR and that it was Crane's part in the kangaroo court all along. We've had The Joker bring the city to its knees in the name of anarchy, with no real goal and no real plan other than that. The guy couldn't work with the likes of Bane or any of the League, not when he's clearly shown to change how he works to fit his plan. He turned Dent into the killer he became after putting him in that hospital bed!

If The Joker was going to be in it at all, it would probably have been as a side-show (punny) doing his thing in the background, but never having any screen time to speak of. The theme for his story arc was TDK, and it would seem too alien in TDKR and add further to the claustrophobia of having so many characters vying for screen time. Talia was neglected enough.

[JLTucker]

Some of you may enjoy reading this: http://mubi.com/notebook/posts/the-big- ... ight-rises

[JME2]

I also agree on The Joker vs. Scarecrow in TDKR. I really don't think The Joker was going to be in TDKR and that it was Crane's part in the kangaroo court all along. We've had The Joker bring the city to its knees in the name of anarchy, with no real goal and no real plan other than that. The guy couldn't work with the likes of Bane or any of the League, not when he's clearly shown to change how he works to fit his plan. He turned Dent into the killer he became after putting him in that hospital bed!

If The Joker was going to be in it at all, it would probably have been as a side-show (punny) doing his thing in the background, but never having any screen time to speak of. The theme for his story arc was TDK, and it would seem too alien in TDKR and add further to the claustrophobia of having so many characters vying for screen time. Talia was neglected enough.

Yeah, Joker's arc had been pretty much closed with TDK.

His ultimate fate didn't matter given he essentially won in the last movie. He forced Gordon and Batman to compromise their values and beliefs to cover up Joker's corruption of Dent. This is why I liked the 8 year time-jump between TDK and TDKR; it showed the long-term repercussions of that night and the Clown's victory.

[Pendleton]

As an aside, here's a good recut trailer using Immigrant Song from The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo.

[Erik von Nein]

They said what type of prisoners they were, "organized crime", i.e., mafia, gangsters, the men that the Joker brought under his umbrella. These are life long criminals that get no parole.
That doesn't mean they never get out, it just means they do all their time. That isn't honestly all that unreasonable.

These are not average criminals that get busted for carrying a gun or prostitution or buying cocaine, accidentally killing someone with their car or whatever, hence why there is a specific prison, Black Gate, set up for them.

I mean the idea that some white collared dude that embezzled from his company, or a blue collar dude that beat up his boss, is going to get broken out and is all of a sudden gonna grab an AK and start executing people is pretty fucking stupid. If that is what you saw in that movie, you weren't paying any kind of fucking attention.

Yeah, I don't think that. That's why I was saying it failed as an example of the Dent Act being oppressive.

[Skylon]

Yeah, Joker's arc had been pretty much closed with TDK.

The only aspect of Joker I can see carrying over is exposing the hypocrisy of the Dent Act. Frankly, the bit about Gordon's speech being conveniently found by Bane was one of the more "Hollywood" moments of the Movie. I could see Ledger's Joker announcing "Lemme tell you the truth about Harvey Dent..."

Revealing that "joke" to Gotham and watching the public backlash, or leading an uprising out of Blackgate (similar to how Joker led Bane's engineered mass-breakout of Arkham in Knightfall) would have been right up Joker's alley. But again, I'm not sure if its too small a roll or would have distracted too much from the Bane story.

In the end though, the Ledger/Nolan Joker made it clear how Batman "completes" him. With Batman "dead" this Joker has little reason to exist and is likely in a padded cell at Arkham vegged out.

[JME2]

[quote="Skylon]Frankly, the bit about Gordon's speech being conveniently found by Bane was one of the more "Hollywood" moments of the Movie.[/quote]

That's a point I was wondering about: Did Bane and Talia know about the cover-up before the operation was set in motion or did they only find out when Gordon was taken prisoner.

My personal take is given that Bruce was trained by the League of Shadows and that his compassion and refusal to kill were well known to the society, I'm sure Bane and Talia had a good idea of what really happened that night.

I'm also sure that they must have been working on some way of revealing the truth behind Dent's death. It was an important tactical/PR step during the early stages of the occupation. It whipped Blackgate's prisoners into a frenzy and destroyed (at least initially) Gordon being used as a rallying point -- though granted, they hadn't planned on Gordon surviving.

I think finding Gordon's speech was an unexpected bonus. By using the words from Gordon's own lips, it made their reveal all the more legitimate.

[Grumman]

Come to think of it, why WERE there so many mentally ill people on the streets of Gotham in TDK for the Joker to recruit?

If nothing else, the plot of the first movie exposed at least part of the population to a chemical weapon intended specifically to cause mental illness.

[Crown]

I felt this was overall a very flawed movie. In ways that surprised me. I think the reason I would still define it as good is that it made it's themes and direction clear enough, and those were good enough to forgive the flaws in execution. Does anyone else get the feeling it was chopped down from a much longer cut? The editing of some scenes is extremely choppy, making them look like isolated moments in a much larger context.

Yes, I did.

Anyway, liked the movie, no where near as good as TDK (which I wasn't a massive, massive fanboy of, but in retrospect Ledger really did hit that out of the park), about same as the first.